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Right, but our oneness with God hasn't been perfected yet. The work of redemption set in motion with the Incarnation has an historical trajectory. So, to return to something Joe has rightly emphasized, we are adopted children of God awaiting a still more perfect, more intimate, sonship that is to come with the end of salvation history.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
That is fine. I recognize what you say to be just your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly feel I am gaining a deeper understanding of the OP as a result of our conversation. There seems to be very good reason to say that Christ redeems the whole of creation and not just human beings.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
That said, I am still mulling over something else Joe said, viz. that creation didn't fall and so doesn't need redemption. You have made a case that sin disrupted creation, and I think I have also endorsed something like this, but I don't think it's a slam-dunk yet.
At least, this is more or less where I am at the moment. I look forward to hearing your take on where we are with respect to the OP.
For those who wonder.
I do not know how to rate a post pr answer.
I see nothing that provides the ability to do that.
Fred
I feel as though I've learned quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I'm wondering whether we need to define "redemption". What does it mean as it pertains to man and to creation?
And I'm wondering about the fact that God made man sovereign of this world. Did, in the fall of man, man take creation with him out of paradise?
Therefore, even though creation did not sin, when man is redeemed, creation is redeemed with him.
Just a question offered in hopes of reconciling with Joe's hypothesis.
And you failed to respond to the Scripture which says the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust
Let's look at it in context. I don't think anyone would or should want to be the "gods" that Jesus refers to here. First, what does Jesus say about the men that he is calling "gods" in this passage:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
John 10:25-27
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
NKJV
So these are men who oppose Jesus, and who oppose God. They are non-believers.
Jesus refers to the Old Testament as the source for his comment, and there is only one place in the Old Testament where this is said and that is Psalm 82. Let's look at it in context.
Ps 82
God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes."
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
NKJV
The word used there in Hebrew is a word that can be used to mean "gods" or "judges", referring to those who are mighty or in positions of leadership. God does not die. These "gods" do. These people are referred to as judging issues before a court, and therefore are in fact evil judges, but the context of John 10:34 shows that these men thought themselves to be gods, and they were falsely judging Jesus. There is no other way to take it in context. Jesus was clearly condemning them and Psalm 82 clearly condemns them.
Look at the characteristics of these "gods" from John 10 and Psalm 82:
- They do not believe in God.
- They rejected Jesus as Saviour
- They show partiality to the wicked
- They judge unjustly
- They do not know
- They do not understand
- They walk about in darkness
- They die like men
- Fall like the princes
Also note that there are no other Gods, according to God.
Ex 23:13
13 And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.
NKJV
Isa 44:8
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV
Isa 45:5
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
NKJV
Isa 45:14
They will make supplication to you, saying, 'Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV
Isa 45:18
18 For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
"I am the LORD, and there is no other.
NKJV
Isa 45:21-22
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
22 "Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
NKJV
So the Bible is explicit in saying that there are no other gods, and that those who claim to be gods in scripture are those who Jesus was condemning.
This refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit spoken of elsewhere in scripture. This is not saying that our nature changes to that of God.Quote:
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust
Jesus is not calling those men gods. Jesus is calling all men gods to whom the word of God came. Read the Scripture:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
These are men with whom Jesus is arguing. Jesus doesn't say, YOU ARE GODS.Quote:
John 10:25-27
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
NKJV
Besides the point. Jesus didn't call them gods. You have twisted the Scripture to your own end.Quote:
So these are men who oppose Jesus, and who oppose God. They are non-believers.
No, Jesus was arguing with the men who denied His Divinity. Therefore, He said, why do you doubt, if Scripture says that those who receive His word are gods?Quote:
Jesus refers to the Old Testament as the source for his comment, and there is only one place in the Old Testament where this is said and that is Psalm 82. Let's look at it in context.
Ps 82
God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes."
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
NKJV
The word used there in Hebrew is a word that can be used to mean "gods" or "judges", referring to those who are mighty or in positions of leadership. God does not die. These "gods" do. These people are referred to as judging issues before a court, and therefore are in fact evil judges, but the context of John 10:34 shows that these men thought themselves to be gods, and they were falsely judging Jesus. There is no other way to take it in context. Jesus was clearly condemning them and Psalm 82 clearly condemns them.
Those who receive His word are men like Moses:
Exodus 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
And the rulers of Israel:
Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
These are they who received the word of God and are called gods.
Your eseigesis makes no sense. Lets read the actual text.Quote:
Look at the characteristics of these "gods" from John 10 and Psalm 82:
- They do not believe in God.
- They rejected Jesus as Saviour
- They show partiality to the wicked
- They judge unjustly
- They do not know
- They do not understand
- They walk about in darkness
- They die like men
- Fall like the princes
Also note that there are no other Gods, according to God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jesus said that it is written in Scripture.
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
That those who have received the word of God are gods.
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus is therefore astounded, that if the Prophets themselves are called gods, they should consider Him a blasphemer because he said that he is the Son of God.
Now, if Jesus were comparing himself to sinners and unbelievers, your eseigesis. But Jesus is comparing Himself to just men who have received the word of God and thereby have a claim to Divintiy.
Quote:
Ex 23:13
13 And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.NKJV
God is here speaking of the gods of other nations.
Yet God has called Abraham the Rock from whom we are hewn.Quote:
Isa 44:8
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV
Quote:
Isa 45:5
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
NKJV
No there isn't. But as we have seen, God appointed Moses god of pharoa and Jesus appointed Simon the Rock of the Church.
Agreed. There is no other God with a capital G. But God has named them gods who have received His word. And the Scripture can't be broken.Quote:
Isa 45:14
They will make supplication to you, saying, 'Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV
Nope. The Scripture is clear that those who receive God's word are considered gods, with a small g and the Scripture can't be broken. Jesus was not comparing Himself to sinners. Otherwise His comments would not make sense.Quote:
Isa 45:18
18 For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
"I am the LORD, and there is no other.
NKJV
Isa 45:21-22
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
22 "Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
NKJV
So the Bible is explicit in saying that there are no other gods, and that those who claim to be gods in scripture are those who Jesus was condemning.
Neither did we say that we became God. That is how you have twisted the Catholic teaching and attempted to twist our understanding of the Scripture.Quote:
This refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit spoken of elsewhere in scripture. This is not saying that our nature changes to that of God.
Jesus referred to the OT and this is the one and only place in the entire OT where men are called gods. BTW, to whom did the word of God come? To the Jews. These men were Jews.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Read what scripture says:
John 10:31-35
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?
NKJV
Ex 7:1Quote:
Those who receive His word are men like Moses:
Exodus 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
And the rulers of Israel:
Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
These are they who received the word of God and are called gods.
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV
Moses was not made into a God. once again, the context is so important, as is ensuring that you are areading a translation in modern language unless you are perfectly fluent in old English.
Ex 22:28
28 "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
NKJV
Wow - where did you get that the prophets are called gods? Show me that in scripture. That is quite a creative interpretation that you have.Quote:
Jesus is therefore astounded, that if the Prophets themselves are called gods, they should consider Him a blasphemer because he said that he is the Son of God.
The original text was not capitalized.Quote:
Agreed. There is no other God with a capital G.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church does.Quote:
Neither did we say that we became God.
I showed you another verse where men are called gods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Jesus is not calling them GOD.Quote:
Read what scripture says:
John 10:31-35
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?
NKJV
As I said before:
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jesus said that it is written in Scripture.
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
That those who have received the word of God are gods.
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus is therefore astounded, that if the Prophets themselves are called gods, they should consider Him a blasphemer because he said that he is the Son of God.
Now, if Jesus were comparing himself to sinners and unbelievers, your eseigesis. But Jesus is comparing Himself to just men who have received the word of God and thereby have a claim to Divintiy.
Did I say that Moses was made into God? Scripture says so and the Scripture can't be broken.Quote:
Ex 7:1
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV
Moses was not made into a God. Once again, the context is so important, as is ensuring that you are areading a translation in modern language unless you are perfectly fluent in old English.
You yourself admit that the Jews received the word of God. The prophets are Jews, are they not. And who amongst the Jews received the word of God from God?Quote:
Ex 22:28
28 "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
NKJV
Wow - where did you get that the prophets are called gods? Show me that in scripture. That is quite a creative interpretation that you have.
Put two and two together.
No, it wasn't. Why did you capitalize it?Quote:
The original text was not capitalized.
Just as the Scriptures do.Quote:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church does.
De Maria,
Excellent, but I fear that Jj3 will never accept what you and the bible teaches about gods who accept and believe in Jesus because it is to Catholic for him to accept.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
You are partly right. I will never accept what De Maria teaches when it goes against scripture. I accept only what the God's word teaches.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
But you have not shown me any place when God endorses men as gods. It is always a condemnation.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Right. Because men are not gods or God.Quote:
Jesus is not calling them GOD.
Scripture does not say it - only you did.Quote:
Did I say that Moses was made into God? Scripture says so and the Scripture can't be broken.
You do a really lousy job of speaking for me. Give it up. Jesus IS the Word of God in the flesh.Quote:
You yourself admit that the Jews received the word of God.
And what is your claim?Quote:
The prophets are Jews, are they not. And who amongst the Jews received the word of God from God?
Put two and two together.
Capitalization was your argument not mine.Quote:
No, it wasn't. Why did you capitalize it?
Really? Where do scripture says that man becomes God?Quote:
Just as the Scriptures do.
John 10:34 and 35: Christ is calling the Jews Gods should also be referenced to Deu 1:17 and also reference Ex 21:6. The reference does come from Ps 82:6 but it's a term used for 'judges' because they exercised divine prerogative to judge. Referenced - “The New American Bible” (foot notes).
The verses here implies that the Jews do not recognize God in spite of the works exhibited by Christ. And an out and out declaration by Christ: I am God.
JoeT
Tj3,
How men become gods (little g) is well explained in the CCC and has been done so by De Marian and others, including me on other boards, but you continue to bring it up.
You should know by now that you can not win the argument, so I must assume that you just want to continue to argue.
Actually I have enjoyed watching the argument continue and learning more in the process of what Scripture and Jesus says about men becoming gods
You have brought more learning from others who know the subject well for me so I thank you.
Fred
Neither of which says what Jesus said - "you are gods". That is Psalm 82.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
So nowhere in scripture does it endorse the belief that men become god or god.Quote:
The reference does come from Ps 82:6 but it's a term used for 'judges' because they exercised divine prerogative to judge. Referenced - “The New American Bible” (foot notes).
It may be taught in the CCC, but not in the Bible. That is the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Fred,Quote:
You should know by now that you can not win the argument,
I keep hoping that you and De Maria will some day seriously discuss the topic, but I do recognize, as you suggest, that to date that has not happened and does not seem likely. But I never give up hope.
Tj3,
I haven't yet seen your answer to the OP. Did Christ die to redeem creation or just man? Do you care to participate in the conversation that was going along quite affably prior to your entrance, or are you just grinding axes yet again?
Do you plan to just make snide remarks or discuss?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
The OP, Tom. Why don't you try addressing the OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Well maybe if you get back on topic, we can all discuss it - how about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Yes please let us all get back to the OP.
It is very interesting.
Fred
WE were discussing it. WE have been discussing it all along. I've read other posters to this thread address the OP. I haven't seen you do it. Site rules require that posters address the OP. If you are going to continue to post to this thread, you should probably speak to the OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Then let's get back on topic. I see so many folk trying to argue that men become gods rather than the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Great. So what's your answer to the OP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I'll join in when I see things are back on topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Riiight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Just to stir the pot, I'll put an oar in the water and mix a few other metaphors into the soup. I'm voting for Creation because I'm proCreation.Quote:
When did the Redemption begin and did Christ die to redeem Creation or just man?
I like the idea of redeeming gophers, whales, poison ivy, and puffballs.
I am decidedly pro-creation too, as you can tell. And, if I may be so narcissistic as to paraphrase my very own self, I think God is pro-creation too. We can love creation. But our love is profoundly limited in all sorts of ways. God's love is a far greater love, of course, and I see no reason to suppose that he has cut the creation off from the hope of redemption. Romans 8 and 1Cor.15 lend support to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
I second this. Does "redemption" mean the same thing when applied to humanity as to the rest of creation? If so, does it mean something different for each individual? I ask this, because if union with God preserves difference, then by virtue of two individuals' differences from each other, one might expect their union with the Godhead to be somewhat different. If differences aren't to be annihilated, then the uniqueness of each person, and of each animal, is going to be in some sense preserved. Yes?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
In some sense, clearly the fall did take creation out of paradise. Animals, who don't sin, nevertheless die. They experience decay and illness. They are victims of contingency just as we are.
So, with an eye to Joe's idea, I would suggest that creation does need redemption, only not a redemption from the sort of fallenness from which humanity needs to be redeemed. This suggests to me that "redemption" isn't applied univocally to every case. That said, the end is the same, "that God may be all in all".
Akoue,
It does seem to me that because animals die as does plants, people, stars and planets that redemption is universe wide.
But in reality I thinks that only God knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yeah, but what's the fun of that, Fred?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I suppose you're going to tell me that I shouldn't start a thread on the topic, "If God wore sneakers what would be his favorite brand?", on the grounds that only God knows for sure. And here I was all excited about it.
Kill-joy.
Akoue,
OOPS, sorry.
But really, how much do we really know about God. He seems to be pretty much hidden from us event though we have what we learned from the bible and his apostles.
The fun is still to speculated, ponder, discus and ponder, don't you think?
I'm off to bed now.
Have a great night.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I was just kidding, Fred. But thisQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Would make for a really interesting question to discuss in its own right.Quote:
He seems to be pretty much hidden from us
You do have a knack for asking interesting questions. And I'm glad you do.
If His life's work is the Creation, you should be able to infer something about Him from his Work. Yes?
This is exactly St. Augustine's approach in the De Trinitate.Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
Quite a bit more has been learned about the Creation since Augustine.
If you extend his approach to current knowledge, what do you infer?
My apologies, but I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Could I trouble you to formulate your question another way?Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
So KNOWING that God has a thing about beetles*, for example, or that he balances cooperation and competition in his Work, and that He made lots of planetary systems besides ours--to name a few interesting tidbits out of several millions--what do you infer about the Artist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
*There are more known species of beetles (more than 350,000) than all species of plants together. Beetles make up more than a quarter of all animal species.
Thank you. That helps a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
I have to confess--and I'm not being coy here--that I don't see any straight inferential path from the arrangement of things in the creation to the nature of the Creator. In other words, I don't know what the vast array of beetle species or the conservation of angular momentum tells us about God. That isn't to say that these things don't tell us anything. It is quite possible the fault is mine, but I have never been very deeply moved by natural theology, principally because (as I say) I don't see any clear inferential path that leads from the one to the other.
I suppose this is why I found Fred's way of putting it so intriguing, that the Divine remains hidden from us in all sorts of ways. That doesn't mean we shouldn't apply ourselves, that we shouldn't strive for a better and deeper understanding of the Divine. Only that I don't tend to find myself moved in one direction or another by natural theology.
Sadly, then, I am not really answering your question. Or, at least, not in as straightforward a way as I would like. But for reasons that I hope make some sense. I do not mean to challenge those who are moved by natural theology, nor do I wish to call that enterprise into question in any general way. I just am not a practitioner of it.
I hope that this makes sense, at least.
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