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-   -   The Book Of Revelations (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=312505)

  • Feb 10, 2009, 07:14 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    I don't think you have. And not as thoroughly as you may think.
    Well, once again, you are welcome to believe as you wish, but simply saying "nah yah" (or the equivalent thereof) is not a dialogue on the issue at hand. You are always welcome to disagree, and you are encouraged to put forward validated rationale for your position, but deal with the issue and please stop pointing fingers at others and essentially calling them liars when you know nothing about them.

    John 1:41-42
    42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
    NKJV
  • Feb 10, 2009, 07:53 PM
    Athos
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Well, once again, you are welcome to believe as you wish, but simply saying "nah yah" (or the equivalent thereof) is not a dialogue on the issue at hand. You are always welcome to disagree, and you are encouraged to put forward validated rationale for your position, but deal with the issue and please stop pointing fingers at others and essentially calling them liars when you know nothing about them.

    John 1:41-42
    42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
    NKJV

    Calling people liars does not become you. It does less for your position. Read the Gospel and let the Gospel interpret itself for you. You will be a new person.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 07:55 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    Calling people liars does not become you.
    Read more carefully - it is you claiming that I am lying. And I agree that it does not bring credit to your position - I am glad that you realize that and I hope that perhaps you will change your approach.

    Quote:
    It does less for your position. Read the Gospel and let the Gospel interpret itself for you. You will be a new person.
    I have. That is why I say that Jesus is head of the church, not any man.

    Eph 5:22-24
    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
    NKJV
  • Feb 10, 2009, 07:59 PM
    Athos
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Read more carefully - it is you claiming that I am lying. And I agree that it does not bring credit to your position - I am glad that you realize that and I hope that perhaps you will change your approach.



    I have. That is why i say that Jesus is head of the church, not any man.

    Eph 5:22-24
    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
    NKJV

    Once again, read the Gospel. The truth shall set you free.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:04 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    Once again, read the Gospel. The truth shall set you free.
    I thought that we were past that "nah yah" / finger pointing approach. Once again, I have read all of the gospel in details many times, and studied them in detail and the truth has set me free. That is why my focus is on Jesus Christ as the head of my Church,

    Eph 5:22-24
    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
    NKJV

    And on His cross on the source of my salvation, not any mere man, nor any organization of men, or any works of men.

    1 Cor 2:1-2
    2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
    NKJV

    It is the ONLY way.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:08 PM
    Athos
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    I thought that we were past that "nah yah" / finger pointing approach. Once again, I have read all of the gospel in details many times, and studied them in detail and the truth has set me free. That is why my focus is on Jesus Christ as the head of my Church,

    Eph 5:22-24
    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
    NKJV

    and on His cross on the source of my salvation, not any mere man, nor any organization of men, or any works of men.

    1 Cor 2:1-2
    2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
    NKJV

    It is the ONLY way.

    I don't think you have. But keep trying. A strong effort will be rewarding for you.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:11 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    I don't think you have. But keep trying. A strong effort will be rewarding for you.
    Like I said, simply calling others liars because they disagree with you is not compelling, but no matter what I say, I will never deny my Lord or the gospel, nor will I go for a different gospel which denies the sovereignty of my Lord.

    Try as you will.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:11 PM
    arcura
    Tj3,
    You interpret it as you want to to fit what you want to believe.
    It IS clear that Jesus was talkong to Perter when He said YOU and Jesus gave Peter (YOU) the keys to heaven.
    That is what I believe.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:15 PM
    Athos
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Like I said, simply calling others liars because they disagree with you is not compelling, but no matter what I say, I will never deny my Lord or the gospel, nor will I go for a different gospel which denies the sovereignty of my Lord.

    Try as you will.

    The Gospel, my friend, the Gospel. That is what you should be reading, not calling people liars. There's hope for you yet.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:19 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Tj3,
    You interpret it as you want to to fit what you want to believe.
    It IS clear that Jesus was talkong to Perter when He said YOU and Jesus gave Peter (YOU) the keys to heaven.
    That is what I believe.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred.

    Did Jesus speak to Peter personally in Matthew 16:19 to Peter by using the Greek singular of the word "you"? Let's look at other places where Jesus used the Greek singular of "you":

    Matt 5:23-26
    23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
    NKJV

    In this passage, Jesus uses the Greek singular of then word "you" in each case that is highlighted. The various occurrences varies in case only (Dative, Genitive or Accusative), but all are the singular of the Greek word "you". So whom is He speaking to in Matthew 5? Let's go back to the start of the chapter and see:

    Matt 5:1-2
    5:1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
    NKJV

    He is therefore speaking to the "multitudes", not an individual, yet His words are aimed at each person as an individual by using the singular of the Greek word "you". If we look at Matthew 16 in context, we see the same thing. Jesus speaking to a number of people, but using the singular to point out that every person, as a priest (1 Peter 2:9) has a responsibility to use the keys, the gospel,
    To bring people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Those who would take the keys and claim them for themselves are following the path of the Pharisees, not of Jesus.

    Man is fallible -why would God make his foundation fallible. The confession is the gospel - that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of the Living God. That is a perfect foundation for the church, the confession of the gospel of Jesus, not a man. Jesus remains the head of the church, and the gospel is the foundation.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:20 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    The Gospel, my friend, the Gospel. That is what you should be reading, not calling people liars.
    Exactly - so if you know that, why are you calling others liars?

    Jesus warned me that this would happen.

    John 15:20-22
    20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
    NKJV


    BTW, do you know that the gospel says that Jesus is the head of the church?

    Eph 5:22-24
    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
    NKJV
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:28 PM
    Akoue

    Mt.17-19 is in direct address. Jesus addresses Peter in v.17 as "Simon Bariona" and, the grammar indicates still in direct address, says to him, to Simon Bariona, "I call you Peter [KEPHA], and--in v.19, still in direct address, "on this Kepha I will build my church". There is no plural indicated--the endings would be different. We do find a singular reflexive, though.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:30 PM
    Akoue
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Exactly - so if you know that, why are you calling others liars?

    Jesus warned me that this would happen.

    John 15:20-22
    20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
    NKJV


    BTW, do you know that the gospel says that Jesus is the head of the church?

    Eph 5:22-24
    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
    NKJV
    Wait, so does the quote from John indicate that you feel you are being PERSECUTED?
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:36 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Akoue View Post
    Wait, so does the quote from John indicate that you feel you are being PERSECUTED?
    If a person continues to obsessively make false accusations because of my profession of faith in Jesus,. you put the pieces together.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:38 PM
    Athos
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Exactly - so if you know that, why are you calling others liars?

    Jesus warned me that this would happen.

    John 15:20-22
    20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
    NKJV


    BTW, do you know that the gospel says that Jesus is the head of the church?

    Eph 5:22-24
    23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
    NKJV

    TJ, I'm sure you are aware that many people are watching you here. Aren't you embarrassed about calling others liars? Surely you know that all your posts are out there for anyone to read?

    The point is the Gospel. Please read it. We'll wait.
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:39 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Akoue View Post
    Mt.17-19 is in direct address. Jesus addresses Peter in v.17 as "Simon Bariona" and, the grammar indicates still in direct address, says to him, to Simon Bariona, "I call you Peter [KEPHA], and--in v.19, still in direct address, "on this Kepha I will build my church". There is no plural indicated--the endings would be different. We do find a singular reflexive, though.
    Your Bible reads differently than mine. Mine says:

    Matt 16:18-19
    18 And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros - stone), and on this rock (petra - rock) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
    NKJV
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:41 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    TJ, I'm sure you are aware that many people are watching you here. Aren't you embarrassed about calling others liars? Surely you know that all your posts are out there for anyone to read?
    Yes, everyone can read it - so why do you carry on? Do you find it so hard to defend your position without abusing others?

    Quote:
    The point is the Gospel. Please read it. We'll wait.
    Let me ask you - do you profess to be a believer in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour?
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:52 PM
    Akoue
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Your Bible reads differently than mine. Mine says:

    Matt 16:18-19
    18 And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros - stone), and on this rock (petra - rock) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
    NKJV
    Yeah, I've seen the petros/petra line before. Problem is, that was a distinction in Attic Greek, not in Koine. So that won't work. Plus, the Aramaic word is Kepha both times (as I pointed out in my earlier post).


    Quote:
    If a person continues to obsessively make false accusations because of my profession of faith in Jesus,. you put the pieces together.
    Wow, and the martyrs thought they had it hard. They never had to face questions on an internet forum!
  • Feb 10, 2009, 08:56 PM
    Fr_Chuck

    Well you guys lasted longer than normal.

    Thread closed

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