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Your first sentence ("The more posts we have on Luther the more interesting this thread becomes.") would have been sufficient. I'm so happy you are glad to be Catholic and no longer one of those misdirected Lutherans. And now you are sorry for me. Gee thanks, Fred. Again, this is why the Christianity board dissolves into arguments, especially between you and Tom -- e.g. "my church is better than your church, and my beliefs are better than your beliefs."Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Wondergirl
Please be accurate.
Where did I say that my beliefs are better than yours?
As I have said many times I respect the right of others to believe as they want to and that includes you and Tom Smith.
For your information I still hold the Lutheran Church in high regard for it was the Lutherans who taught me first about Jesus Christ and to love and follow him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
How about "Also the more happy I am that I left that denomination many years ago...."
Thank God you left that denomination... relief for leaving a terribly misguided group and all its confused adherents is implicit in your words.
Your first statement was lovely and very true -- "The more posts we have on Luther the more interesting this thread becomes."
Well this has come to a screeching halt...
Ok, Akoue. It's all up to you. How much did Luther's physical health affect what he did and how he did it? A few historians blame his stomach problems and depression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Wondergirl,
I did not know that Luther had such problems.
A man with stomach problems can be very much affected by that.
I know because I had severe stomach problems and eventually passed out from it.
I spend a month in the hospital getting it taken care of.
I now must wear a colostomy pouch but all the pain is gone.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Oh, sure, dump it in my lap, why don't you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It actually makes a lot of sense to me that Luther, who suffered physically for many years, could be made irascible by his ailments. And I don't think this reflects poorly on him: As a monk, we know that he was in terrible physical pain a good deal of the time. It would sure make me cranky. That said, even though I obviously have my problems with Luther, I tend not to want to psychoanalyze him too much. It feels a bit phony to me (and just me--this isn't a criticism of those who do it).
I prefer to look at his actions and his writings and to try to understand and assess them without trying to climb into his head too terribly much (though sometimes it's unavoidable, I suspect). As I said earlier, I don't claim to know his intentions, and I very much doubt anyone else does, but his actions trouble me... and not just because I don't agree with him a lot of the time. In fairness to the man, he may not have known what exactly his intentions were--we often don't realize our own intentions and motivations at the time we act but until later, after we've had a chance to reflect.
So he may have thought of himself as a humble servant at the beginning, but the very rapid hardening of his position says something. I'm just not entirely sure what. And I don't think it can be adequately explained by appealing to the refusal of the other side to meet him halfway since, as we know, Eck tried that more than once and was rebuffed.
See!! You outdid yourself! I knew you were up to the task.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I suspect when he lost control of his theses, things went to hell in a handbasket, and he was forced to defend his position six ways from Sunday.Quote:
As I said earlier, I don't claim to know his intentions, and I very much doubt anyone else does
To be sure the translation of the Theses into the vernacular, coupled with their wide dissemination, added a layer of complexity. The Church could not, then, respond solely in the manner of an academic disputation.
Here's my thing about that: Luther's early publications in the immediate aftermath of this were downright vitriolic. So he didn't try to tamp down the situation from his end, even as the Church was trying to engage in this debate he called for with the Theses themselves. He acted in a way that was guaranteed to cause escalation, while at the same time refusing to participate in an honest debate of ideas. And this doesn't look to me like the actions of someone who didn't embrace schism as a goal. Now, I may very well be wrong--I have no privileged access to the contents of Luther's mental states--but his *actions* weren't those of someone who "loved his Church". At the end of the day, I can only speak to his actions, not his psychology, and this is why I say I find it very difficult to buy into the idea that he was motivated by a loving zeal to reform the Church. His actions just aren't consonant with that as far as I can tell.
You are equating the Church with the men who ran the Church. Luther loved the one and disrespected the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I don't think I'm equating them. I'm not trying to be coy here: I've re-read what I wrote and don't think I've done this. But, as I so often say, I may be missing something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
In any case, though, I don't see how that would change anything about what I've said. If Luther had not wanted schism, if he wanted to reform the Church and preserve its unity, then he would, I think, have comported himself differently. He might, at the VERY least, have engaged in the debate he himself called for. Instead, he chose to be a polemicist.
Akoue,
I speak from experience having had stomach pain for a long time.
I was often sad or confused or angry that at first the doctors could not determine what my problem was.
At time it was difficult to carry on a decent conversation with anyone including family members.
So I tried to avoid speaking with them and that upset them.
I asked the priest for healing prayers and he did lay hands on me trying to help me and get God's help.
For several days that seemed to help but when the pain came back I was disappointed and angry and confused.
Finally after a cat scan it was determined what my problem was but I passed out and was out for two weeks having had 2 heart attacks.
When I woke up the priest came to the hospital and asked me if I wanted last rights. In anger I said no it will not do any good and I did feel that way at the time. It was foolish of me to say that but I was under some drugs and confused,
Later I spoke with my priest about that and told him that if ever I was in the same situation, please don't ask me about last rights, just do it.
I think he understood.
Through all that I did not want to change the Mass or attack the pope. Something like that never crossed my mind.
Then again I was not like Luther wanting to make some changes in the Church for I was not a monk or a priest with things like that on my mind.
BUT, having had such an experience I can see where Luther may have been driven by pain and frustration to become and extremist at times and an isolationist as well.
Now I am happy that the Church has reversed Father Luther's expulsion.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Thank you, Fred.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
That was a beautiful testimony.
Peace and kindness,
Carol
Fred,
That was one of the loveliest things I've read in some time. Thank you so much.
Wondergirl and Akoue,
Thank you.
Having learned about Father Luther's stomach problems I much more understand him than I did previously.
Again the lesson is learned that it is difficult to reach a good conclusion if a person does not know the whole story.
I seem to have to have that lesson retaught from time to time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
To all...
Always try to remember, when you are pointing the finger of blame, there are three pointed back at you..
~In the Spirit of love, we can conquer evil
sndbay
That's what has been said so some folks point with their whole hand.
However they can still be in error.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Hint:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
That may be so Fred, but they sure won't be staying around after Christ writes in the sand, now will they?
sndbay,
Christ has already written in the sand and people still make errors.
Some do so out of ignorance and still others do so on purpose or some other reason.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred I wish I could just give you a green agree, But it won't allow me to do so..Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
So I will agree by posting, and say: yes, it is true that men remain sinful in nature. And it is written that lack of knowledge will be to their destruction (Hsa 4:6)
I have experience on another thread, where some in their lack of knowledge have decided to give me red in disagreement .. It shows lack of knowledge in understand the simplicity of Christ being the only way to the Father.. Instead in mind they choose to follow Oprah and her false teaching.
How fast judgement is mad without understand or looking to the content of what is said.
Remain patient and suffer those things done in His Name, for God finds it pleasing to do so... (1 Peter 2:15-16)
sndbay,
Thanks.
I also find it difficult to rate answers.
Why I don't know.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Over a year ago I asked whether Martin Luther was schismatic or a reformer. We had an interesting conversation in which I promoted the idea that he was schismatic.
I WAS WRONG!
The topic of Luther falls a little flat with me. In my opinion Luther's theology is in error. However, during my studies on another topic I ran into a few pieces of information that on the surface didn't really seem to hold much insight to Luther; that is until I started reading a bit deeper. Finally, it drew me to the conclusion that Martin Luther was pathologically mad. It all seems to have started in a 'secret place'.
What was this 'secret place'? How did it figure into Luther theology?
It was in the cold winter of 1518-1519 when Luther found his fiduciary faith of sola fides. It has been described by many outside the Catholic Church as the single most edifying concept in modern Christianity – some of us Catholics would describe it a bit differently, but we won't go into that just now. The epiphany of Luther's took place in the Tower of the Monastery. It seems there was single eureka moment that sits in the forefront of modern history leading to a great movement – at least this was the hope. As ironic as this revelation will turn out to be, it will eventually flush Christian insight into a new era by the man who saw himself as the NEW PROPHET JOHN. Repent, Repent is the cry that brings fourth tangible results. Not the battle cry, but the tangible results that are odoriferous to Catholics. The epiphany came after hours of sitting in anguish; a special illumination came to Luther from God, so he thought as he grunted out his studies. Consumed with his mission, this is a long ago told but forgotten story…until in the wrings of Luther himself we can trace the time, the city, and the location of his epiphany. I've said many times, God has an ironic sense of humor, sometimes plain and simple, sometimes, if we remember Job, somewhat morbid.
It seems that Martin Luther was moved with the knowledge that there was absolute assurance of salvation by what we've come to know as 'faith alone'. Not, that the grace of faith is salvific but it provides assurance, not just the type of assurance of a confidant faith, but assurance of, so to speak, 'grasping the ring' of salvation. “Faith without the works which Luther had now come to detest, and attack “self-righteousness,” as in the Commentary on Romans “sola fides…quoe non nititur operibus illis [orationibus et praepartoriis”]“ ( Grisar, 1913, Luther I, p 378) One presumption made runs through man like goose fodder; is explained by Luther “the law, even as explained in the New Testament, which renders assurance of salvation possible only after the fulfillment of demands impossible to the natural man, is, it is true, necessary as a negative preparation for faith no to be regarded as the expression of the relationship desired by God between Himself and man.“ Here we find the piles of Luther's error. The gospels and epistles of the New Testament demand a 'full' relationship in which man is very capable of giving and is expressed daily in the virtues of marriage. Luther says that God merely reveals the law for 'educational' purposes.
Who was Martin Luther? Warren H. Carroll tells us, “There is no lack of evidence to answer that question. He left an enormous corpus of writings,” He also left us an enormous corpus. Being politically sensitive, he was rather round and tall for his day, with a booming voice. He spent many hours saddled to the kitchen table, if it could hold him, eating and drinking. “Contemporaries noted especially the brilliance of the black eyes deep-set in his beefy face, which could glow with inspiration or burn with anger, dominating and attracting his followers and cowing his adversaries…while, on the other hand, some remarks made by his opponents on the uncanny effect of his magic glance will be mentioned later.” (Grisar, Luther, I, 279); like one possessed by the spirit, or vapors. Some of Luther's students described him as “mysterious and obscure” (Ibid). But, such a man would undoubtedly have gastrointestinal issues but it seemed that Luther's vapors where produced in fires of the belly.
In the winter months of 1518 – 1519 Luther took to moving his place of study from his cold and dank chambers to his “secret chamber.” “From where he could hear, the croaking of the ravens and magpies about the towers in front of his windows sounded like the voices which spoke in the depths of his soul” (Ibid. VII, p. 79). It's here that he discovers 'faith alone;' it's here that he discovers his 'Evangel' - whatever that was. In his own, probably slurred, words from around the kitchen table, he is constantly heard to talk of his “secret place.”
It's in the Tower of the monastery, you might say in Luther's Chamber, where he first contemplated the esoteric voices in a murky confusion of the mind:
“The passage, Romans 1, The Justice of God is revealed in the Gospel, had, till then, been an obstacle to me. For I hated the words 'justice of God', which according to the use and custom of all teachers I had been taught to interpret in the philosophical sense, namely, as referring to the formal and active justice by which God is just and punishes the sinners and the unjust. Although I was a blameless monk, I felt myself as a sinner before God, suffered great trouble of conscience and was unable to look with confidence on God as propitiated by my satisfaction, therefore I did not love, but on the contrary, hated, the just God Who punishes sinners ; I was angry with Him with furious murmuring, and said : The unhappy sinners and those who owing to original sin are for all eternity rejected are already sufficiently oppressed by every kind of misfortune owing to the Ten Commandments, and as though this were not enough God wills [according to Rom. 1.] by means of the gospel to heap pain on pain, and threatens us with His Justice and His Anger even in the gospel.”
“For the justice of God is revealed therein, from faith unto faith, as it is written: The just man lives by faith.” Romans 1:17
Luther would have been familiar with St. John Chrysostom's Homily 2 on Romans: “But he who has become just shall live, not for the present life only, but for that which is to come. And he hints not only this, but also another thing along with this, namely, the brightness and gloriousness of such a life.” Distinctively less confused, less eaten with guilt of the conscience, Catholics then and now interpreted this verse as the prescribed and active justice whereby God punishes sinners AND rewords the faithful; apparently something dropped by Luther? I don't think so, that is not unless… the door hinge of Luther's New Revelation to mankind comes from Luther's inspiration from a 'secret place.'
The monastery containing Luther's throne was an old castle, Roman in architecture. The castle, no doubt would have been surrounded by a stagnant cesspool of a mote. The castle structure would appear to come out of the slug looking something like the old toilet sitting in the duck pond outback. Depending on the fortification itself, the building would sit 4 to six feet above the water, and then above that sometimes as much as 6 feet to 8 feet in height would be the ground floor and living quarters; most likely of the lord of the Castle. The intervening space is a hypocaust chamber for distributing heat under the ground floor, somewhat like a modern forced-air duct system. Vertical, shafts or hollow spaces transmitted the heated air (and smoke) up the castle wall and out one or more chimneys. The towers were usually built on the corners; some had upper portions projected out over the water for a strategic view. Under siege these towers had defensive uses, but during peace they were used as privies – one strategic view looked directly down into the mote.
Luther's office was a “privy situated above the Hypocaustom”; particularly, it would have been a privy over a hollow space or system of channels in the floor providing for the heating system. The system was inefficient in that it relied strictly on convection and no doubt by modern standards expensive to operate. But there is a more serious problem with heating the old castle, far beyond the economics; the hypocaust system was a very dangerous, especially so when the heat was cranked up. The fumes created by the fire in the furnace seeped up and wafted out of every nook and cranny filling the entire castle with fumes and noxious gases, most notably carbon monoxide gases. This particular privy would have been a warm place to study on a cold night. This would have been especially true of one who was gastro-intestinally challenged. As a result, it would be a good place to study the cosmic truths while, how should I say, discharging copious amounts of consumed beer; a great chair for a Pope want-a-be.
But, life does have its drawbacks at times; large concentrations of carbon monoxide inhaled over short period can cause death. However, long exposure to moderate amounts of CO causes one or more of the following: lightheadedness, depression, paranoia, confusion, memory loss, delirium, emotional disturbances, and hallucinations. During his meditations we read that Luther went to what was sometimes called a 'secret place' (no doubt he explained it this way as a matter of modesty) a place we call a privy which in this case was a room above the hypocaust or a placed called the 'cloaca', sometimes translated as closet (water closet i.e. urinal). This place would have been one of the warmest in the monastery – a good place to be during the cold, cold, winter of 1518 – 1519. And the most likely place where the concentrations of CO would be at their highest.
During one of Luther's 'Kitchen Table' conversation he turns to the voices heard – voices of the hypocaust: “On one occasion on this tower (where the privy of the monks was situated) when I was speculating on the words, etc. the Holy Ghost” (Lauterbach's "Colloquia” (ed. By Bindseil) Ibid. p396 But this isn't the only voice we here of the Luther's 'Tower'. I wonder if this is what old ladies used to call 'vapors'.
“The Lutheran pastor Caspar Khummer, who, in 1554, made a collection of Table-Talk, relates both circumstances (in Lauter bach s edition): “ semel in hac turri speculabar,” and further on: “With this knowledge the Holy Ghost inspired me in this cloaca on the tower”; Ibid. p 396. The 'cloaca' was a place where one relieved himself from a night of heavy drinking. “The mention of the cloaca explains the entry of Johann Schlaginhaufen in his notes of Luther's own words in 1532 : “ This art the Spiritus sanctus infused into me in this Cl.” Cloaca is abbreviated into CL, probably because Schlaginhaufen s copyist, was reluctant to write it out in full alongside of the account of the inspiration which Luther had received from the Holy Ghost ; the editor suggests we should read “ Capitel “; but the chapter-house is not to be thought of. “ Ibid. P 396
What irony God visits on us! What's the irony? The 'secret places' referred to is the place where Luther received his 'inspiration' was no less than the crapper. What are we to assume that his vision was a movement gone wrong, or was it all just all vapors? There's more, we've still got the Evangel and I've gone way too long.
I think he was quite mad. His actions seem to be the product of a physical or pathological 'illnesses'. I'm even more inclined to think Luther lost a spiritual battle in an ongoing war waged against the Church. Did Luther conspire with the Divine Will to be the 'Judas' of his day, and for what purpose, 'reformation'? What was really changed in the Church, none of its theological teachings? You'll have to excuse me but I've just about settled on the conclusion that Luther lost his battle with the devil within his white washed cell tossing his “scheiss” (or black ink as some would want to say).
Source: http://www.archive.org/details/grisarsluther02grisuoft
added: see also http://www.archive.org/details/luthergris01grisuoft
JoeT
You lost me here, Joe. "Secrete" has to do with body fluids. I did try to read the rest despite the misspellings, but I finally gave up. I'll refrain from posting current negative writings about the pope. You're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Slip of the keyboard. I don't know, secrete might work too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Are those your "typos" or the author's?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Mine why?
You typed that entire passage letter by letter? Please proofread in the future. Typos tend to lessen the seriousness of an argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The actual quotes were lifted from the sources I gave. The remainder is mine. I realize the spelling may be bad but surely you’re not complaining about that – well, I take that back, I forgot, you’re the librarian!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I fixed it!
JoeT
Thanks, but "secrete" wasn't the only one. When I see a paper (or a response) riddled with mistakes and typos, I stop reading, don't want to waste my time. And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Btw, the link didn't take me anywhere -- another no-no. Proofread, proofread, proofread!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Well, I checked it over again, apparently I'm overlooking the 'big objection', and so I guess it'll just have to go unread. I can't write it in Latin – I don't read or write Latin well enough. I can't write it in German; I did have a few German classes decades ago, but I'm not good enough to write in German. I picked up a little Thai and Vietnamese, eons ago, but I can't spell a word of it – can't even pronounce half of it. I know Spanish well enough to order at Taco Bell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Well I tried to keep you from having to down load the pdf but, this will do in a pinch. Internet Archive: Free Download: Luther
JoeT
Thanks, Joe. Will look it over with a critical eye. I like pdfs. No problemo (that's Spanish).Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Non guardare a chiudere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I've never seen it on the menu at Taco Bell!
JoeT
After you hand the server a ten dollar bill and tell him to keep the change and he says "Mucho gracias," then you say, "No problemo."Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I was looking at some of the citations, most are from volume 1, see Internet Archive: Free Download: LutherQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
JoeT
I couldn't find the bibliography -- just some footnotes that were turn-of-the-century. The book has a copyright of 1913, but I smiled when I saw the fourteen digit CLSI-style bar code that can be read by our computers at my library.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Don't forget -- the absolutely last thing Luther wanted was to leave the Church. He was interested only in addressing its wrongs and oversights with the hope that they would be corrected. He was devastated when he was excommunicated.
JoeT,
I very much liked what you wrote.
It is very interesting and at this point I agree that Luther may have been mad of mind, heart, and passion.
That seems to be reasonable considering how and where he lived.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
You apparently didn't notice what I had said -- "Don't forget -- the absolutely last thing Luther wanted was to leave the Church. He was interested only in addressing its wrongs and oversights with the hope that they would be corrected. He was devastated when he was excommunicated."Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
If he was mad, it was because he had lost his anchor.
Wondergirl ,
I agree that Luther did not want to leave The Church.
But he did attack it and even denounced the pope.
Peace and kindness,'
Fred
And with good reason. Do you know what was going on at the time?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Wondergirl,
Yes I know what was going on.
Don't forget that for many years I was very much against the Catholic Church and dug up much dirt to throw at it.
There is NO church that does not have some bad history.
The reason is that those churches are full of human beings.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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