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Tj3,
No matter how you try to twist it, JoeT777 answered your question.
I also believe that Jesus Christ, my Lord, God the son, was conceived in Mary's womb overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.
Well over one billion people believe that correctly.
If you do not that is your business and fault not mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Am I to understand that Catholics see no difference between God The Father and God the Son? You keep quoting that scripture which says "son of God" and then equating it to "God", saying that "God" was conceived by Mary, making her the "mother of God"?
While I am here there is something else that applies here (and many other places), and that is this; is the Bible the Word of God or not? If it is the Word of God, then NO ONE has any right to add to, subtract from, or supercede it. Logic tells me you cannot say it is the Word of God and also say chruch tradition or pronouncement of a Pope is just as, or more valid than the Bible. Which do you choose?
Hi... I'm sure jesus, as a baby, didn't levitate his pacifier to his mouth. But still the ancient god was working and living. God wasQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Working through flesh. He did this through the holy spirit. If I have
This correctly, you want me to accept that jesus somehow ruled the
Universe, even while here in the flesh on earth. Then why did he keep
Talking about his father, and why did he have yet to ascend to him? Not
To mention asking the father for the holy spirit to send to us, so that
We could be one as they are one. Which brings me to the point that we
Are able to become one with god, just as jesus is one with god, through
The holy spirit. Are we gods then? If you want to call us that, but we
Certainly don't rule the universe or heaven.
Yes, in the New Testament the title “the Son of God” is used to express the Divinity of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). (e.g. Luke 1:32, 35; John 1:49) In Matthew, chapter 16, verse 15, Peter declares that Jesus is “the son of the living God.”Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Regarding the birth of Jesus: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary." I’m using the formula of the Apostle’s Creed so that I don’t misrepresent the Church’s position.
Catholic would agree that the Scriptures are the inspired word of God written by men and as such are sacred. The Church holds that Scripture and Apostolic Tradition must be in harmony to be taught by the Magisterium of the Church for those things necessary for salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
No one in the Church has added to Scripture. No one has subtracted anything from Scriputre. The Church has maintain the Scripture through the ages. As I understand the way Catholic theology works, is that Scripture must bear out Tradition; as well as Tradition must bear out Scripture. Catholics today hold the same faith as those taught by the original 12 Apostles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
You’re absolutely right. The Pope can’t stand up and say – “believe this way” or you will not receive salvation. That is, without teaching through Scripture in harmony with Tradition. He’s prevented by the Holy Spirit. In this way we are assured by Christ’s promise to protect the Church from error. Furthermore, the Church teaches that the Holy Spirit protects the Pope from making any such error. But, this does not prohibit the Pope from establishing certain disciplines, e.g. ban on married priests. Or, from invoking his right to “bind or loosen,” e.g. the right of Rome to issue indulgences. (Which by the way, contrary to Protestant belief, can’t be sold)Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
I’ve explained these issues using my words and understanding of the RCC. I can, if you would like, discuss them more rigorously as they apply to Church doctrine; but I would suggest you do it under a different thread
JoeT
Joet777, we both believe in god, and jesus as the son of god. Mary
Was jesus' mother on earth. Mary was not born before god, and so cannot
Be the mother of god, as god is also spirit and timeless. We both want to follow god's will in our lives. God should be the focus, as we were created for his good pleasure. God has a plan for mankind, which involves his holy spirit within us. We are to become sons of god. How does this happen? Do catholics have a way to get there?
Cogs,
The bible says that Mary conceived and give birth to Jesus Christ.
It also says, Matthew 1:23. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,'' which is translated, "God with us.''
Because the bible says that Mary is the mother of God I believe it.
Jesus other name is Immanuel or "God with us".
That is perfectly clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
arcura, thanks for your continued patience. I don't think we're on opposing sides of this, just a different perspective. If we were to look at jesus on earth, what would we see before us? A being that looks and acts just like us, a man. We would have seen his birth, infancy, childhood, teens, and then manhood. He would have appeared to us just as we are. The bible even says that he wasn't anything special, as far as appearance. The people up to that time had not seen god. Maybe god was not even see-able. So when we would have called jesus 'god with us', we surely would have been talking about something other than his humanity, else we would have called him 'average joe'. His divinity was only apparent from his miracles, and words. So something internal was active in jesus. I believe this was god. God is spirit. He can act through anything, just as jesus said he could have raised up stones to praise him. So when you say that mary birthed jesus, we agree. Where my perspective changes, is that the internal thing that made jesus different from us, was only available to him in the way that he did miracles and remained sinless. Not only that, but jesus' authority was given to him, to pay for sins as a sacrifice. We weren't accepted as a sacrifice. Mary, as well, could not be accepted as that sacrifice. She did not have that authority. And there is no record of her miracles. Yes, she birthed jesus, but his authority and power did not encompass her. So I can say that with jesus, god is with us. But with mary, god is not with us.
I never made the statement that Mary “Mary was born before God,” never implied it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Oh, but she was. She was the selfless handmaiden of God, blessed among women, full of grace; the “Mother of my Lord.” (Cf. Luke 1) What other person in the New Testament is honored this way?Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ, who was man with God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary as according to “Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1: 31-33)
Mary birthed Christ. Just as we call the woman that gave birth to us, we call Mary the Mother of Christ; conceived in her womb she brought forth a son, the Messiah.
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by cogs
God is the focus. Agreed, however as your father wants you to respect and honor your Mother, so does Christ wish for us to honor and respect His Mother; "behold thy mother."Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Yes, with fear and trembling do we work out our salvation, through faith and good works, harmoniously with God’s will, rejoicing in the sufferings for His sake, for our salvation; (Cf. Phil 2:12)Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
Sure, but that's an odd question. Who said we didn't? Didn't I address this above?Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
cogs,
You are right about Mary, she is not divine, but her son was and is.
Mary gave birth to the God/Man Jesus who was/is fully God and fully a human man.
He has the attributes of both God and Man.
Don't forget that God appeared as a man to Abraham, but Jesus was/is a man and God.
With God all things are possible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
JoeT777
Right, we Catholics have a way to get there.
The Eucharist is one of them.
Having a good strong working faith is another.
All though the grace and mercy of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I know, I just say this to explain myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I believe she was.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I agree jesus respects his mother. The bible says to honor your father and mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Yes, this is the work we should be doing, god's will, and enduring the sufferings we encounter for his sake [that he died] for our salvation. (brackets mine) the trouble, is finding out what is his will.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Respectfully, the difference between us is that I would have stated that “God was flesh” in Christ. I view the statement above as a form of Arianism (link).Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
Here's where the confusion comes: if mary birthed god, then god would have been conceived in her womb. Since the bible tells us that in the beginning god created the earth, and everything else, then mary was not conceived. So logic follows that, that which was not conceived, conceived that which conceived that which was not conceived.
No confusion on my part. Mary birthed God is precisely what happened, but he was “conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit” (Cf. Luke 1) The fact that God resided in the womb of Mary is precisely why I suggested that Mary’s womb was like the Holy of Holies in Moses’ Tabernacle (Cf. Ex 32?-40). To suggest that God resided in an unclean temple simply would have been unimaginable in Christ's time and is as unimaginable as Moses failing to keep the Tabernacle ritually clean. Thus, we conclude that Mary was immaculately conceived (without sin) by some miraculous miracle of God. Catholics do believe in miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Again: I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary." This was carefully worded for a reason at the dawn of Christendom.
Yes, God created the earth and the heavens above, and it was good. But that knowledge doesn’t come to the logic that Jesus, the man, was separate from Christ, which was God.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
Then we agree... mary was not the mother of god. You could just as easily say that mary was the daughter of god because she was the daughter of eve, who god created. So father, mother, sister, brother, if it feels nice, don't think twice, shower the people you love with love. (james taylor)
Are you quoting James Taylor the singer-songwriter? Never heard of him. But Mary was Mother of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
cogs,
God is eternal and infinite, true.
God chose His Word to be born as a human man from a human woman named Mary.
As the bible says the word is God and was born of Mary and named Jesus, a human name.
So it was, so it is, so it will always be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I agree arcura. Joet777, yes, the singer. Did you say that right, that you do not agree that mary was mother of god? And by the way, I believe that jesus was somehow god, I just don't understand completely how god worked himself into flesh. Doesn't matter though, because jesus had the authority to atone for the world's sins, as a sinless sacrifice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Yes I did say it backwards! I fixed it. I can agree that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world. (I didn't say that backwards).
JoeT
JoeT777, then who was jesus talking about when he said, 'i go to the father'?
JoeT777,
I'm glad you fixed that.
Also I note that God has the power to create this vast universe we live in with billions of galaxies and trillions of stars plus who knows how many planets.
So how come some can not fathom that He has the power to be born of a Human woman and to change bread and wine into His body and blood?
That is beyond me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
cogs,
According to the Bible the triune God is the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.
The Father's heavenly kingdom is in heaven so when Jesus said that he is going to the Father then to heaven is where he went.
The bible tells us that Jesus sits to the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
So that is basically where they rule from.
That is the way I understand it.
I suspect that JoeT777 understands it similarly.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
To avoid an error on my part I'll quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church:Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.
Therefore when Christ said 'I go to the father' he was implying that the 2nd person of God would go to the first person of God.
JoeT
Its one and the same; except that your answer seems so much easier than the CCCQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
JoeT
JoeT777,
Thanks much, Joe.
You made it much clearer than did I.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
And was the answer YES or NO? Did he say that God was conceived or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Do you believe God was conceived in Mary?Quote:
I also believe that Jesus Christ, my Lord, God the son, was conceived in Mary's womb overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.
Really? You polled these one billion people, did you? Or are you just claiming to speak on their behalf?Quote:
Well over one billion people believe that correctly.
Do you believe God's doctrine is rightly determined by majority vote?
I think I get your belief now: that mary could have mothered god, because jesus was god, putting aside that the father is god also. My thoughts are always on how the spiritual reacts with the physical. This is because we must interact with god on some level. The holy spirit must do something in us, for us to be transformed into doing his will. If I just believe in god, it soon becomes apparent that I'm not changing, and I start to sin. There has to be something spiritual interacting with the physical. And since jesus promised the holy spirit, which we cannot see, just as we cannot see god, then this spirit must be inside doing something for,to,with,or in us. I honestly believe it's just as the bible says, that jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and that includes the evil within us, through working his will by the spirit.
It’s not just “my” belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
But, I think you came pretty close – I don’t know how or why you would “put aside the Father.” The idea isn’t that you’re putting Him aside; it’s that God is revealing himself in the Person of Christ. I’ve heard the three parts of the Trinity described as; God is the cause, the Son of God is the presence of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Word of God. Yet one god.
I don’t know if you intended to be understood this way, but I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough. But that makes for an entirely different topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
I'm not saying jesus wasn't god. Jesus said that he is the way to god, and I believe that he's intimately connected to god, the father. I really don't think we're ever going to separate one, (father, son, spirit), without the other, which makes sense, because they are of one will, and work it in heaven and this world. They are a dynamic person. But what I believe, is that god's holy spirit jesus promised to us, is what will change us. And the atonement of jesus is what will forgive us.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
yes, that's another subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I agree. The intent of my post wasn't to give you any impression other that that expressed here.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
JoeT777
You said, "I also believe that God’s graces need to be received by the free will and responded to. Simply believing isn’t enough."
I agree!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I see that you also avolid the question - Was God conceived? YES or NO?
BTW, you are right simply believing is not enough - scripture says that we must believe IN Him. Quite different.
God was not created but God was conceived in Mary's womb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Luke 1 31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Now if you claim that Jesus is not God, then go ahead. But if Jesus is God, then God is conceived in Mary's womb.
Define: conceive
Fertilisation (also known as conception, fecundation and syngamy), is fusion of gametes to produce a new organism of the same species. In animals, the process involves a sperm fusing with an ovum, which eventually leads to the development of an embryo. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceive
You seem to regard the word conceive as always synonymous with new Creation. But you are wrong. Conceive also means to fertilize in the womb. In a normal fertilization, we have two pre existing seeds, the man's and the woman's joining together and forming an organic being.
In Mary's womb, we have pre existing GOD (i.e. God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity) joining with Mary's seed. God took flesh in Mary's womb and thus Jesus was conceived. Jesus, being Son of the Most High, is God from the instant of His Conception because the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is God from all eternity.
Sincerely,
De Maria
If God was conceived, then God had a beginning, which denies the eternal pre-existed of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
God was not conceived in Mary's womb. What began in her womb was the flesh in which God was manifested.
Wrong. We all know that God existed before Mary. Therefore, Jesus conception in the womb could not be the beginning of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You are trying to force that into Catholic doctrine. But obviously you don't know much about Catholic doctrine.Quote:
which denies the eternal pre-existed of God.
But Jesus was and Jesus is God. Therefore God was conceived in Mary's womb.Quote:
God was not conceived in Mary's womb. What began in her womb was the flesh in which God was manifested.
The only way you can logically believe that God was not conceived in Mary's womb is the Nestorian heresy which denies the Divinity of Christ:
Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.
A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).
Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.
The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.
Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.
Mary: Mother of God
Sincerely,
De Maria
Tj3.
Yes, God the son was conceived in Mary's womb, but He was not created there.
God is eternal and infinite.
You denying Mar is the mother of God is saying that she conceived Just a man and not God the Son. Therefore according to you Jesus is not God.
With God all things are possible.
By the way as I have said many times I believe in and on the triune God.
Please no longer try to infer that I do not!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Then you do not understand what it means to conceive.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Then you must hold to the Mormon view that God had a beginningQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Tj3,
Yes I fully understand what conceived means.
Thank you.
Fred
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