 |
ZachZ its blatantly apparently that you asked a question which you DO NOT Truly want an answer to. It seems that you get off on yourself righteous and rather annoying attempts to entrap well meaning christians in a game of semantics. Therefore, Im over it.
May God give you clarity.
Zach it is blatantly apparent that you DO NOT Truly want an answer to this question. It seems that you get off on entrapping well meaning Christians in yourself righteous and rather annoying game of semantics. Therefore I'm done. May God give you clarity
Actually I really, truly do want an answer. Why can't an answer be provided? How is exposing such a fundamental internal contradiction about such a fundamental cornerstone of your faith an "annoying game of semantics"?Quote:
Originally Posted by pnkrkmama
I can only show you the way back, you have to walk down it.
May God indeed grant you clarity, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
Zach Z
if you want the truth and answers than you have to be willing to hear everything that is being said not defend or retaliate against everything being said.
The answers to your questions have already been given to you and they are the answers that reference certain text of the Bible. If you are familiar with the Bible remember Pilate talking to Jesus right before handing him over to be crucified in John 18
"37 Pilate said, “So you are a king?”
Jesus responded, “You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true.”
Those that truly seek to know the Truth will hear it and understand it.
The Bible says that God's ways are higher than our understanding and we can not begin to fathom the spiritual because it is beyond our mental capabilities. Just like a kid has to trust its parents even though he can't understand and piece together the way things are because he doesn't understand doesn't make what he doesn't comprehend not so.
You have to look at things from a spiritual concept and that is about impossible to do if you do not even believe in spiritual things. Like how is a skeptic to believe ghosts exist until they encounter one themselves. If you want to understand you first go beyond your comprehension and have to open your spiritual eyes and heart
How can we be sure that we're not hearing lies dressed up as truth? One the ways we can tell is when what's being said contradicts Torah. Another way is when what's being said contradicts itself! You believe God requires belief in self-contradictory concepts? Thank goodness Torah teaches otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
In your case I would say start by answering do you believe there is a supreme being WHOEVER He may be? Can you accept that the supreme being created the universe and work on what you can find believable about a creator and go from there.
If you are an Atheist skeptic we can never come up with answers that will suit you.
If you are searching for answers because you do want to believe then you have to take the basics you do believe and maybe build on that to the extent you are able to believe.
You seem to be another person who thinks that belief in God requires total disengagement of the brain, and abandonment of logic and reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Often-quoted from Isaiah 1: "Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD". God does not requirement abandonment of all reason. Can any religion that hinges on such a requirement be true?
Of course I do! If for some reason it hasn't become clear yet: I believe in God -- the ONE God of Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
We can be sure we are not hearing lies because of a personal relationship with God.
Do you have a personal relationship with the god represented in the Torah? If so, how?
Also, if you are basing all "contradictions" against the Torah then why are you posting and needing to know so vehemently the question in the OP. Does that question even matter if you know what the Torah teaches as being true? Just something to consider
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
OKAY I wasn't sure cause some of the things you say are just like skeptics and atheists say.
Can you tell me then, since you believe in the Torah, how you rationalize why God would demand sacrifices of animals? Can you tell me the logic in that in order to please God and whatever significance it has to you that makes sense?
This is a subjective answer that is easily proven unsatisfactory: Catholics believe they have a valid, personal relationship with God, and pray to Mary. Mormons believe they have a valid, personal relationship with God, and believe we can all become gods. Muslims believe they have a valid, personal relationship with God, and deny the trinity. Zoroastrians believe they have a valid, personal relationship with God... Heck, even the Heaven's Gate cult who committed mass suicide at the approach of comet Hale-Bopp in 1997 believed they had a valid, personal relationship with God! Are they ALL right because they "feel" they are? The Jewish bible warns against exactly this sort of subjective "feeling" as justification for your religion: 1 Kings 18:Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
So we know that 'feeling' is not enough. There are externally-verifiable requirements. I have pointed out an internal contradiction in Christian dogma. I have shown that 'feeling' is not enough. Can you not address the point of the OP?Quote:
In the 18th chapter of I Kings, the Bible relates that when Elijah had challenged 450 priests of Baal to bring a sacrifice to their gods and see if their offering would be miraculously accepted with fire, there was a peculiar spectacle which followed. It seemed as though there was no doubt in the minds of these pagan worshipers that Baal would hear their supplications and consume their bullock with a heavenly fire. The Bible vividly recounts how they enthusiastically entreated Baal and prayed fervidly for a miracle all day. They even climbed on top of the altar and began to prance beside their sacrifice, and when that failed to secure a response from their gods, in their frantic zeal they used knives and lancets to slice away flesh from their bodies. These prophets of Baal were on fire for their gods. Regardless of their unyielding zeal for their idols, they were commanded to turn away from these abominations.
Yes, but that would be going down yet another tangent path. It should suffice for me to point out that there is nothing internally contradictory about understanding the plain Torah text regarding sacrifices at face value. This is not a parallel concept to the explanation of the resurrection, which does have that problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
But it still is something you have to take by faith of why God would do something like that.
It is something that really doesn't make much sense in a human reasoning so I would think if you can take that leap of faith. Also the Torah does teach in the three and you believe in the three just not the way Christians do. I take it you are a Jew and God says he loves the Jew first and then the gentile so maybe you don't even need to worry about the trinity being one. I don't know.
"Jesus is the way the truth and the light NO ONE comes to the Father except through Him"Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
I'll take that as your inability to come up with a relevant response.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
You are right that 'feeling' or putting your faith in a denomination is not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
I do not trust religions because they give you man made formulas.
That is why I said to ask God to open your spiritual eyes and heart and ask him to reveal himself to you. The Bible says pray and seek the truth and study the word and he will lead you.
ZachZ to answer the OP...
He (Jesus) is fully God and fully Man like you said and He came back to life after 3 days... who did that, He did, He is fully God and fully man.
That is fairly easy for me to understand, to try to explain it in some deeply theologolical way would be to discredit that fundamental tenant of the faith
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
You asked if they were all right and I posted my response, that to me is a relevant response
Who says my spiritual 'eyes' are not already open? Who says He has not already revealed Himself to me? Who says I do not already wear kippah, tallis and tefillin and pray daily?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
If you claim that because I do not 'feel' what you think you feel, you're back to arguing against what you yourself just agreed with!
Thank you for addressing the OP:Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Are you saying Jesus resurrected himself? Then he did not truly "fully die" as "fully man and fully God", and therefore: no sacrifice.
Are you saying Jesus did 'fully die', and was resurrected by "something else"... then this shows that Jesus was not fully God, as SOMETHING outside of the fully dead Jesus had to be around to do the resurrecting.
Show me where I'm wrong!
I didn't meant that you aren't. I am not meaning they are not open, I always ask God to show me in my spirit (opne my eyes and my heart to your truth), even so, it is just good to ask God in your spirit on a continuous basis like a refresher or reminder. God says those who seek shall find and you are seeking so trust that he will continue to lead you in all truths,
How can I tell when someone tells me something if it's the "gospel truth" or if it's a deceitful message from Satan sent to test me?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
OK... this is what I believe and will be quoting and pulling from the Bible so bear with the trail of reasoning and how difficult this is to explain on the computer.
On the cross Jesus cried out "Lord (His Father) why do you forsake me" and died. God the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit cannot die so clearly Jesus at that moment died as fully man. From there where He went for the next three days is unclear and not part of the OP. His body was buried but His soul/spirit was elsewhere. ON the third day His spirit re-entered His now new body (fully God) Remember He appeared to the three on the road and they didn't recognize Him so had to have been given a new body but when they realized they immediately knew it was Him, so even though the fully man had died the fully God was still very much there and never changed.
So to specifically say WHO raised Him from the dead, the spirit part of Him that is enjoined with God and the Holy Spirit never died but was just absent from the body
Thank you...Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Bear with me here, before I can make a follow-up point I need you to clarify something.
Can you please tell me that when Christians say "Jesus died for our sins", what exactly is involved in the sacrifice this describes? By definition, a 'sacrifice' is something valuable that is given up in order to obtain something better. There are four parts to a sacrifice:
1) Someone offering the sacrifice
2) The thing being sacrificed, which must be of value to the one offering it in 1)
3) The thing the sacrifice is being directed toward
4) The "something better" obtained in return for the subject of 1)
Can you clearly identify each of these four parts for me as Christians see it in the "sacrifice of Jesus on the cross".
Thanks.
See if it lines up with the Torah or even the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
If people have to use word games to twist the meaning then be cautious.
Like some of the main denominations and cults will add the word LIKE to a verse and say that makes it mean something different. Or they will add or take away the word IF from the verse and say it means something different. They will say the founders of their Church were guided or inspired and it proves Jesus was an angel or that we ourselves become angels or gods when we die. Those are all false. Anybody that tries to complicate scriptures by a bunch of Church doctrine is most likely deceptive. Church doctrine should back up the Toran and the New Testament not add to it or take away from it.
I would go into more details and examples but I don't want to get an argument started here over religion. If you have any specific questions post them here.
A GREAT answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
So if I can find teachings or concepts in, say, the Quran... or the Greek gospels... that don't line up with Torah, I am justified in rejecting those books as false, correct?
Yes if it doesn't line up with the Torah or the New Testament then it isn't of God.
Like say you hear Jesus is an angel and related to Lucifer (the fallen angel Satan) like the Mormons believe where can you find it in the Torah or the New Testament to prove it or back it up without twisting the meaning?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachZ
1). God the Father sent His son into this world to spread the Word and ultimately offer Himself up to be sacrificed
2) obviously His one and only Son (which means a ton if you have children of your own)
3). We are all full of sin and fall short of the glory of God and this is the final sacrifice to wipe those sins clean (if we believe we are sinners in need of a saviour)
4). If you believe in Jesus (and his sacrifice for you) you shall not perish but have everlasting life
Look forward to your response
A question I have always wondered is why if Jews do not believe Jesus was the sacrifice then why do they not sacrifice animals any more like in the Torah and why when Jesus died did the veil tear? What was the significance of the temple veil being torn in two when Jesus died?
If you know the answer and maybe want to start another topic for it I would appreciate it.
If you can't answer that it is okay.
Did you look at this link I gave you previously?
Tenakh/Hebrew Scriptures
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
The veil tore because that separated the holy from the Holy of Holies (where the only direct communication between you and God could have existed) in the temple
It is a significant illustration showing that Christ's death makes it possible for us to go directly to God with anything; making the relationship very personal instead of having a go between (pastor, priest, etc)
I know but why don't the Jews take that as significant to Jesus death?
Jesus died and the separation of the holy from the Holy of Holies (where the only direct communication between you and God could have existed) in the temple was torn meaning no more separation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I don't know for sure but don't they still operate under OT law with the notion the Messiah has not come yet and that Jesus was only a prophet. That is how I understand it?
Exactly. That is why I have always wondered why they don't see the significance.
Several interesting but not on-topic questions for Jews here that should be brought to the Judaism board.
Shabbos soon, if I don't get a chance to respond before then, I wish everyone a good weekend.
Yes that is why I asked if you cared to do another post. I would post it to the Judaism board but I have run into too much antagonism with someone with a couple questions I asked before.
If ETWolverine was still here I would PM him.
I should say none of the choices because both the question and the choices have erroneous content as far as biblical facts are concerned. BUT choice A is bit nearer to biblical facts.
The trinity may have been a mystery for many, but as usual, God's foolishness is greater than men's wisdom.
1 Corinthians 1
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
As is most revelation from God, when you see it, you wonder why everybody didn't see it in the first place!
So here we go,
I believe that the Holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit and Jesus Spirit, come together to make one Spirit.
As we are made in His image, and how the figure of marriage is constantly used for the union of Jesus and the Church, even though two separate entities, come together as one.
This is why in Genesis 2 it says -
23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, '
for she was taken out of man."
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
If we are MADE in the image of God, the emphasis is on the Made.
Eve was always a part of Adam, she was taken from him and made a helper for him.
When they come together, they form another person, or spirit.
A man, before he is married, has his own way of doing things, as does a woman.
If they continue in doing things to satisfy their own desires and needs and not those of each other, then that marriage is not very stable and will probably fail.
If the husband and wife choose to enjoy each others company and forego their previous life styles, then they will grow closer and closer together, eventually even finishing off each others sentences sometimes.
Their spirits truly become one and a new spirit is born, (so to speak), and wherever one or the other is, the spirit of the other is there with them.
I believe that this is the image God is talking about, "Man" in Genesis 5, is man AND woman, not just Adam.
"MAN is made in God's image," if that is the case, if it were a mirror persay, then God is made in man's image. (I say this just to make a point, not that God is made in OUR image, for those that may take this out of context)
I believe that Jesus was taken from God, as Eve was taken from Adam, and made a separate person with a separate Spirit.
He then came together with God the Father and their Spirits form the Holy Spirit, even though that still retain their own Spirits.
So, wherever the Holy Spirit is, Jesus is there; and so is the Father.
That is why Jesus is called the Firstborn of all creation, and in Revelation 3
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
I believe that the Holy Spirit, could come upon men in the Old Testament, but could not stay, as man's spirit was not yet able to contain it as the perfect sacrifice had not yet come. ( Jesus)
When the Son of God took on flesh, the Holy Spirit was now part man, in the Spirit of Jesus.
After Jesus death and resurrection, He perfected all those that would accept His sacrifice for sins as their own and now the Holy Spirit could dwell in men.
This is the short answer, but it just about covers it.
Does that make sense to you? It was what I believe, God revealed to me a few years ago, after I pestered Him for the explanation of the Trinity for at least 15 years.
I would stand to be corrected if you could show that I was wrong, but as it is, it's a great story to tell the Jehova's Witnesses, they are shocked as the trinity is their favorite weapon against the Christian Church.
It shakes their doctrine to it's very core, they believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, not the true Son of God.
It's their best hook for taking people out of the Catholic church as Catholics have no explanation and little knowledge of the scriptures.
Once you agree with them on one point, it's easy for them to get you to agree on another, then another, then another.
Jehova's Witnesses have a seven step program for getting people into their church, but that's another story.
Just like the devil, he uses something small, like smoking or swearing when we are children, then slowly adds more and more rebellion until some commit murder or turn to drugs or suicide.
No-one decides to become a murderer overnight, or rob a bank overnight, it's a small step at a time.
I will say one thing for satan, he knows his business! And he knows our weakness!
Agreed! It still astounds me that so many people try to get around using every rationalization in the book, no matter how specious! The Tanak says: God is not a man, No likeness of God was seen, God changes not, God is ONE. Why do you disagree?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
You are saying the separate 'persons' of God have separate wills and it is (theoretically) possible for them to disagree with each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
OK which one of the three was killed on the cross? Which one did the resurrecting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
I understand you believe it, but people believe all sorts of crazy, anti-biblical things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
It is clear to me that it wasn't God you were listening to when you chose to embrace these ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
Based on your answers, it appears that you are a polytheist. You believe in separate god-'persons' with individual wills. That makes 3 gods.
I understand your point: the apparent contradiction of jesus dying, then saying he resurrected himself, and us believing his word, which would make our thinking as illogical as jesus'. Again, I don't know how it happened, or how jesus did his miracles. I also don't know how god parted the sea for the israelites, or went as a cloud and a pillar of fire before them. I don't know how all the plagues against pharaoh happened. There's so many things in the bible that require faith, and the putting aside human logic. I mean, we could say anything, and attempt to believe it, whether it fits with physics or not.
So I look elsewhere for a reference point. I begin to look to the creation, and its purpose. To believe it just 'happened' to me, takes just as much faith as biblical miracles. There's too much organization and purpose to not believe we came from an intelligence. I then look to history for any evidence of that intelligence interacting with creation. The closest thing I have found that coincides with my questions about the meaning of life, and my purpose here, is the ancient scriptures of god.
Now for the jump in logic: if his words that were recorded point to a future event that will impact my spiritual development, or purpose, I would have to accept jesus as the closest event to the prophecy found in the ancient scriptures. Since I cannot prove god's interaction with humans over time, I have to take many things on faith, and look at the overall purpose. Finally, if I'm to spiritually mature, I have to have some verification that I'm on the right path, and the bible says that the spirit of god is available to me. So outside of scripture, I must accept a way to communicate to my creator, that the bible says is only available if I believe in jesus' atonement for my sin. In fact it says jesus is the way to god. So, although there's things in the bible that go beyond the physics I see everyday, I believe it still, because I need meaning to my life that I cannot find anywhere else. And back to the original thought, if I am created, what other miracles can this intelligence accomplish, that I cannot understand, and go beyond physics? Especially in the area of a loving sacrifice that serves god the only purpose of bringing us closer to himself, even for eternity where he resides?
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:57 AM. |