If that's the case, then Jesus really wasn't tempted, didn't think to himself, "Should I or shouldn't I?" It was "No way" from the get-go. No temptation.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
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If that's the case, then Jesus really wasn't tempted, didn't think to himself, "Should I or shouldn't I?" It was "No way" from the get-go. No temptation.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
That is what I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I'm willing to inspect any Scripture you have which leads you to a contrary opinion however.
James 1 14 But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.
Did Jesus have concupiscence?
My Bible (RSV) uses the word "desire." The next verse says, "Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin...." Heb 2:18 tells us that "he himself has suffered and been tempted" and Heb. 4:15 says "[we have] one who in every respect has been tempted as we are... " Jesus was true God and true man, the latter meaning he was up against the same temptations as we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Then it is Jesus who you claim to sacrifice in each Mass. Over and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I believe it first means to accept Jesus (salvation) and when you are born again your eyes are open to the corruption and lies of this world and you see the truth. Then you are set free from man's traditions and you see the truth rather than following man [even men of religion if they are teaching man's doctrine] You are set free in your spirit and have discernment.
Too many Christians are blind sheep being led astray by the corruption and deceptions of this world.
Cogs, it is very exciting to hear that you are considering receiving the fullness of the Spirit.
In Mark 4
A Lamp on a Stand
21He said to them, "Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don't you put it on its stand?
22For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. 23If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."
24"Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more.
25Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."
Indeed, consider what you hear, if you say God can only do this much, or put Him in a box that you can handle, then that is all he will be to you.
As for me, I knocked down all the walls of unbelief and doubt as far as to the right, the left, in front and behind, as high and as low as is possible, and submit myself to God and whatever He wants to show me.
I used to believe that God would only do this or that and put limits on His power.
If you want to speak in tongues, just submit your tongue to God and just do it!
You don't go into a trance or anything, it's just a prayer language, (1 Cor.14)
God is Spirit and desires all to worship Him in Spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
(1 Cor.14:14)
It is a prayer language that only God can understand, the enemy (the devil) cannot understand it!
It is like a secret code language the Holy Spirit with our spirit enables us to speak.
Being baptized, is symbolizing Christ's burial and resurrection, (Romans 6)
We do it to follow His example and show obedience.
To be Born again, is from God alone.
John 1
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Our spirit is immersed into the Holy Spirit. And we we become one with God.
we become alive to God and the Holy Spirit makes us aware of sin and begins to change us from the inside out.
John 14
Role of the Spirit
16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
When you first believe, the Holy Spirit is with you, when you submit yourself completely to God from your heart, then you open the door for the Holy Spirit to enter.
It is His job to teach you all things.
John14
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16
Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
In 1 John 2
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The anointing is the Holy Spirit.
He will teach you all things. Don't believe any-one, ask the Holy spirit to confirm all that you have heard from me or anybody else.
If you can't confirm it in the word of God, then discard it.
As far as sin is concerned, you have feelings, these want to be satisfied, the devil knows man's weakness and his pride.
He knows how to tempt us as he has his demons watching us at all times.
If we are tempted, then that is not a sin, if we are led away by that temptation, and fulfil that desire, then that is a sin. (That is, if that desire is in ordinate lust or greed or the other lusts mentioned in Galatians 5)
Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
5Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
God is not against feelings, but He wants you to desire the higher feelings, like love, peace , joy etc.
As the others on this forum can attest, when the Joy of the Lord comes upon you, you laugh and cry at the same time.
In Nehemiah 8:10
Nehemiah said, "Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is sacred to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength."
If your rejoicing in the Lord all the time , speaking to yourselves in psalms hymns and spiritual songs, it doesn't give the devil a foothold, that's how you resist temptation.
If you sin , just confess your sin to Jesus, God is not angry, sin doesn't worry Him, He's got it covered!
If you confess your sin, then He will forgive you and wash you from an evil conscience.
If you have thoughts of condemnation after you sin, that is the accuser (satan's name means accuser), don't even listen to him, tell him to shut up and get out!
When you confess your sin, you are coming into agreement with God, and He likes that!
If you feel condemned after you confess your sin, then you believe the accuser and stand with him, against God.
Better to believe God and receive forgiveness and rejoice!
Bless you heaps, Jesus said that all the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner repents.
Peace bro'!
:)
I am about ready to burn my Bible according to THE Church being the final authority!
What good is the Bible when THE Church trumps it with things that go contrary to the Bible teachings!!
He said 'take no thought saying…' sin first comes as a thought; we can cancel that thought with the word of God. You cannot think one thing while saying another. Try it. You cannot do it. I do not know if the devil spoke to Jesus in an audible voice or not, but the way the devil speaks to us is in our thought life.
Actually, you can. I've done it before. Its called a Freudian slip. When out of your mouth comes what you really believe rather than what you intend to say.
That is not at all what I meant. In your mind start counting to 20 and then at the same time say the names of the months. If you say you can do both at the same time without forgetting to count, I will believe you. But you will be the first person I have ever heard of that can do that.
We tried this at church one day, and no one was able to do it.
IF the devil is saying things in your mind of guilt, shame or unbelief, temptations, start saying the Word out loud and that will drown out the voice of the devil in your mind.
blessings
Tsila
The Bible has several verses that say out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
James 3
3Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? Either a vine, figs? So can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Calvary Fellowship » Out of the Abundance of the Heart
This is true. So we do need the Word of God in out hearts in order to speak it out of our mouths. And we need the Holy Spirit to help us control our tongue so that we speak blessings and good things.
Blessings to you
Did the evil well up from within Jesus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Mark 7 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile a man.
We have to decide what our authority and standard of truth is - is it an institution of man? Or is it God's word.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Nope. Jesus was only sacrificed once. But He continues the same sacrifice in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Apocalypse 5 6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.
I get it. You don't know anything about the nature of Jewish sacrifices.
Remember, Jesus is our Pasch:
1 Corinthians 5 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.
After the lamb was sacrificed, the High Priest would enters the temple and offers the sacrifice to God:
Heb 9 6 Now these things being thus ordered, into the first tabernacle the priests indeed always entered, accomplishing the offices of sacrifices. 7 But into the second, the high priest alone, once a year: not without blood, which he offereth for his own, and the people's ignorance:
Do you understand that if Jesus did not enter the heavenly temple and offer the Sacrifice to God, it would not matter that Jesus was crucified on the Cross. It is the offering of the Sacrifice which accomplishes the sacrifice.
And Jesus does not offer the sacrifice IN time but in eternity. That is why it is a once for all sacrifice:
Heb 9
11 But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation: 12 Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and of oxen, and the ashes of an heifer being sprinkled, sanctify such as are defiled, to the cleansing of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who by the Holy Ghost offered himself unspotted unto God, cleanse our conscience from dead works, to serve the living God?
If anyone ever wondered, this is why it was imperative for Him to come before the Father:
John 20 17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
The Church was established by God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I have yet to see the Biblical connection that proves Peter started the RCC.
I mean I can say I went to Washington D.C. and spent a year and even had a tour of the White House and that would not make me the President of the U.S.A.
That is the Protestant problem. The Bible says, don't lean on your own understanding and obey the Church and calls the Church the Pillar of Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
But, since you don't want to obey the Church, but you want to obey your own inclinations, you would rather discard the Bible than obey it.
I would rather obey the Bible and because the Bible says so, I obey the Church and my leaders within the Church. I believe this is the more Biblical attitude.
Sincerely,
De Maria
BUT again WHAT CHURCH... I have yet to see where it is the Catholic church.
Why so you say you would rather obey the Bible to try and prove the RCC IS the Biblical church yet you insist the RCC is to be believed over the Bible??
Seems like a lot of picking and choosing to me!
I understand the meaning of baptism. But, as in this scripture, there's no qualification for baptism, in order to receive the gift of the holy spirit from the father. I totally agree with you about the holy spirit making us aware of sin and changing us from the inside out. When jesus said he would lead us into all truth, then what is untrue in us is made evident, and to be ejected from our spirit and lifestyle. That, peter, and I say this is all love and respect, is what is the true baptism, because it does purify us from that which does not belong in us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
Mar 1:8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit. ASV
I am not saying in any way that people cannot be baptized with water. I think even some people think that the water has some power in it, that literally changes our insides. With water, though, this is not my experience, knowing the laws of physics. But that is not the point.
I was a little disappointed, cause I saw that you were excited for me, but then I realized it was not because I believed like you do, that the holy spirit is now changing me from the inside out. But thank you for reading my posts, and thank you for yours.
That is the decision you have to make. I can only tell you which decision I made and why.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Perhaps because you don't know as much about the Catholic Church as I.Quote:
I have yet to see where it is the Catholic church.
For instance, I know that the only Church that gives daily Communion is the Catholic Church:
Luke 11 3 Give us this day our daily bread.
Acts 2 46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;
The Catholic Church is the only Church which steps in faith and accepts her role as Pillar of Truth:
1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
The Catholic Church is the only one that recognizes that Jesus named Simon His representative and in confirmation of that fact, gave Him a name which previously referred to God alone:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The Catholic Church accepts the responsibility of binding and losing men from sins:
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Well yes. I pick the Catholic Church's interpretation over yours.Quote:
Why so you say you would rather obey the Bible to try and prove the RCC IS the Biblical church yet you insist the RCC is to be believed over the Bible??
Seems like a lot of picking and choosing to me!
Like so many Protestants, you believe that your interpretation of the Bible is equivalent with Scripture. That is rather arrogant. And Jesus has said:
Matthew 23 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
We on the other hand, accept the Church's interpretation before our own. And when we do interpret it is in obedience to the parameters stated by the Catholic Church which in Scripture is called our Pillar of Truth.
You may select another Church. And that is fine. But you have no Scriptural grounds to tell me not to believe the Church.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Peter didn't. Jesus did.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Nor could you find that information in the Scriptures. The fact that you went to Washington would be found only in your personal notes and perhaps the business receipts of the companies you engaged for your travel.Quote:
I mean I can say I went to Washington D.C. and spent a year and even had a tour of the White House and that would not make me the President of the U.S.A.
In the same way, St. Peter's Bishopric in Rome is not mentioned in the Scriptures. But it is mentioned in Church tradition, Church history, in Roman history and in world history.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I don't know the full meaning of this, but it doesn't sound like a physical church. And the name isn't catholic. Perhaps you can shed some light on what your interpretation of this scripture means, and not just the part about peter starting a church, but the scripture as a whole?
Forget it, I'll put a new post in main. Thank you.
Right.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Not on in scripture, and even if it were true, your denomination is not heaven.Quote:
But He continues the same sacrifice in heaven.
Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering
NKJV
Do you know what "one sacrifice" means? Do you know what "forever" means?
So why does the Roman Chruch say to lean on the understanding of men?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Nowhere are we told to obey any denomination. As for the "pillar of truth".Quote:
and obey the Church and calls the Church the Pillar of Truth.
1 Tim 3:15-16
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
NKJV
What does scripture say?
Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
NKJV
So we see that individuals who "overcome" are the pillars. Who are those who overcome?
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV
1 John 2:14
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV
There is much more in scripture, but it is clear that it those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them. If the word of God abides in them, then the word of God preceded the church, and the pillars of the church are the individuals who are saved, which agrees with what we read in scripture:
1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV
The church is not an organization, but it is the body of Christ, of overcomers, those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them.
The physical church building represents the church insofar as it has the "pillars" to uphold the word of God within the church, if not, like any building without pillars, it falls. Further, the foundation is Jesus:
1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV
And where the pillars are absent, so is the foundation absent and again, the building must fall.
No church organization/denomination can stand as a Church of God unless it has Jesus Christ as it's foundation and those who are saved and in whom the word of God abides as it's pillars.
Why do Roman Catholics leave out the context of this verse to make it appear to say something that it doesn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Matt 16:13-18
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NKJV
Because God loves men and established many to be our leaders in the Spirit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,...17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Question: Who taught you the alphabet? Who taught you to count? Was it men? Or was it a spirit or something?
We are told to obey the Church.Quote:
Nowhere are we told to obey any denomination.
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Those who overcome are those who persevere to the end.Quote:
As for the "pillar of truth".
1 Tim 3:15-16
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
NKJV
What does scripture say?
Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
NKJV
So we see that individuals who "overcome" are the pillars. Who are those who overcome?
Note that the Pillar of truth is here and now. St. Paul is going to teach them how to behave in it.
But those who overcome will be appointed pillars at the resurrection.
The very word, overcomes, entails perseverance to the end.Quote:
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV
It doesn't change the fact that Scripture calls the Church the pillar of truth.Quote:
1 John 2:14
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV
There is much more in scripture, but it is clear that it those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them. If the word of God abides in them, then the word of God preceded the church, and the pillars of the church are the individuals who are saved, which agrees with what we read in scripture:
And you are taking this verse from 1 John generalizing very broadly from this one verse of 1 John.
First of all, it is written to a select group of young men whom St. John knows have overcome the evil one.
Second, he still admonishes them to:
15 Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him.
Why would he do so unless they could fall?
29 If you know, that he is just, know ye, that every one also, who doth justice, is born of him.
Notice how he says "if" you know him at the end. And right before he warns them to "abide in him". That is a direct reference to his Gospel, chapter 15:
27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be confounded by him at his coming.
John 15 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.
That verse is pretty much telling that the Church is an organization. The body is composed of "organs". Another word for body is "corporation." The body of Christ is literally Christ's incorporation.Quote:
1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV
The church is not an organization, but it is the body of Christ, of overcomers, those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them.
Therefore, the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ since it has all those earmarks.Quote:
The physical church building represents the church insofar as it has the "pillars" to uphold the word of God within the church, if not, like any building without pillars, it falls. Further, the foundation is Jesus:
1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV
And where the pillars are absent, so is the foundation absent and again, the building must fall.
No church organization/denomination can stand as a Church of God unless it has Jesus Christ as it's foundation and those who are saved and in whom the word of God abides as it's pillars.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Doesn't change anything. If anything, it confirms the Catholic position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Only if you believe their private interpretation and mis-translation. I prefer what the Bible says.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Your choice.
My choice is the Catholic interpretation. I believe yours is the mistranslation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So you admit that Roman Catholics lean on the understanding of men (which is, BTW, private interpretation).Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
This does not command us to obey your denomination or any other. It speak of local church discipline.Quote:
We are told to obey the Church.
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
But is does refute the false teaching that it is a manmade organization, whether we speak of your denomination or any other denomination.Quote:
It doesn't change the fact that Scripture calls the Church the pillar of truth.
Man can reject their salvation.Quote:
Why would he do so unless they could fall?
Wow! How you can conclude that is beyond me. It says the exact opposite.Quote:
That verse is pretty much telling that the Church is an organization. The body is composed of "organs". Another word for body is "corporation." The body of Christ is literally Christ's incorporation.
You chose the private interpretation of man.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I stick with what the text says in the original language.
Ran out of greenies :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Exactly what I have been saying. Own interpretation of man!
Hey Cogs, baptism by full immersion in water does have a spiritual significance.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
It is an act of obedience to God, and this is the first way that show our desire to obey God.
When I got baptized, no-one had spoken to me about it, the Holy Spirit told me to get baptized by full immersion when I was 21.
I rejected it, as I was a catholic and believed that I was in the right church.
I told the Holy Spirit that, "If I didn't settle down in the world by the time I hit 35, then I would follow Him then, even if I had to become a priest or a monk or a nun!" (I was being sarcastic with the Holy Spirit, I glad He didn't just fry me then!)
When I was 35, I had been using and selling drugs for 17 years, I was a binge drinker, smoked, swore, living in sin, steal anything that wasn't nailed down etc.
I was on my way to kill some-one that had slept with my fiancée, the first time, an angel stopped me, the second time, God spoke to me in an audible voice, quite loud too.
He said, "NOW,GO AND GET BAPTIZED"
There is more to this story, but that is another story.
I found a church that believed in the gifts of the Spirit and full immersion baptism and got baptized on a Wednesday night.
I didn't expect anything to happen, I was just going to go and get baptized and leave, I had no interest in going to any church.
I got into this big tub thing that they used to use for baptisms, and after confessing my faith in Jesus and that He died and rose again, I was laid back under the water.
I was only under a second or two, but as soon as I broke the surface of the water, I felt different. I felt clean, there is no other way to describe it!
I dried off and went into their meeting. The strangest thing was, as I looked at these strangers, I had this feeling in my guts, that I had come home. I walked around and looked intently into everbody's face, I didn't know any body, yet I felt that I had come home!
I felt like the prodigal son, ( which is the exact representation of a sinner returning to God)
I lost the desire for sin, even though I continued to smoke for a couple of weeks, I gave up drugs and fornication, drinking took a few weeks too, but the desire just went away.
I continued purely by habit.
But this was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is a wholly separate thing.
They prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit, they told me to keep saying Hallelujah over and over and just go with whatever comes.
I started to speak in tongues, as the Hallelujahs started getting mixed up.
I thought that I was making it up, as I had done it before when I was 21. (I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in the backyard of my parents home in Adelaide, though I didn't know that is was the Holy Spirit, I thought that I had made up a new language myself!)
I perservered for a couple of months, speaking in tongues now and then, then I went to a Christian camp and they had a prayer meeting where a lot of people would pray in tongues for an hour before the main meeting.
I thought,"Wow, praying for a whole hour in tongues," I had only done it for a few minutes at a time.
I thought that I would give it a go, and went in there the next morning.
I had been praying in tongues, for about 50 minutes when the Holy Spirit reminded me of all the dreams that I had had, those many years ago, and that I had been baptized in the Spirit at the same time. He also reminded me of the all the other things that He had told me way back then
I had to drive to Sydney for some work, after the meeting, it was about a 4 1/2 hour drive.
I laughed and cried all the way, and I hadn't cried since I was 10 years old!
You just have ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit and receive it by faith.
Then just start speaking in tongues, it doesn't matter what you say, just make up a language and start speaking.
As you pray, and are submitted to the Holy Spirit, He comes and supernaturally, you receive a prayer language.
You will notice the change in your tongue (language) as you pray, it will just flow out, you don't have to concentrate, or think of what you are going to say next, just pray!
If you can, pray for an hour at least, at least once a week, it usually takes 30-40 minutes for our fleshly mind to get out of the way and our spirit to really get into worship.
Pray for a half hour each day and you will really get built up in the spirit.
It is the most natural thing when you do it, you wonder what the fuss is all about, it just fits.
The reason that I am excited for you, is that you are very close to the kingdom of God, but the main thing is to believe what the Holy Spirit is saying to you right now!
What ever I say or anybody else says, don't believe it unless you can prove it by the word of God.
Be like the Bereans
Acts 17
10As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
Don't trust me or anybody else for you salvation, trust God.
Peace:)
De Maria
Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
And he will make your paths straight.
De Maria,
There is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome, he may have been taken there to be killed, but there is not even any evidence of that.
Lets look at Peter's ministry,
Galatians 2
6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.
7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.
9James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Funny how their ministry was to the Jews and Paul's was to the gentile romans!
Paul, speaking in Romans 11
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
Peter went to Antioch, Samaria, Joppa, Ceasarea and other places, but not Rome.
If he had, then it would have been mentioned as Rome was considered the most important city in the world.
The Catholic Encyclopedia says that a tradition appeared as early as the third century for the belief that Peter was the bishop of Rome for 25 years, these years, according to Jerome, were from 42 A.D. until 67 A.D.
The problem is, that about the year 44, Peter was in the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15).
About 53, Paul joined him in Antioch, (Galatians 2:11)
About 58, Paul wrote his letter to the Christians at Rome in which he sent greetings to 27 persons, but didn't mention Peter!
If Peter was the head of the church, then this would be a bit of a oversight on Pauls part.
Cheers. :)
I thank god he got your attention before you ruined some lives. I can totally see how the spirit could see your future, and then remind you how he was trying to warn you. I don't know how you quit your habits, other than god blessing you. I don't know how you will hear god speaking, when you're not listening, and praying in tongues. I have tried tongues before, but I always thought it was just talking, and thought that if I just pray, and listen to god, it's just as good. As far as obedience, god hasn't prompted me to get baptized (I already have been, but not full immersion), and hasn't prompted to speak in tongues. Right now, I'm trying to obey what I know, and listen to god in case he speaks to me (which I believe he has in the past), so I'll be prepared to not resist, but obey. I need cleansing on the inside, by obeying, and not continuing my way. This is what I think is purification. It's wonderful that god was doing a good work in you all the time, which is as you said about the prodigal son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
I'm glad you brought this up. It highlights a great difference between Catholics and Protestants.
Why yes? Which Scripture are you reading? Here the BIBLE tells me to lean on the understanding of men:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hebrews 13
7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Is that Scripture missing from your Bible?
Here Jesus sent men to teach the world what He taught:
Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
And here, St. Paul is obviously doing the same thing, he is teaching Timothy to teach others who would find others to teach and on and on:
2 Timothy 2 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.
So, the Bible is telling me to lean on the understanding of men. Show me where the Bible tells me that I shouldn't listen to them.
Here's a bit more:
Jesus said we should be like little children. Little children learn from their parents:
Matthew 18 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Oh and the Israelites came to Moses to learn the Will of God:
Exodus 18 15 And Moses answered him: The people come to me to seek the judgment of God.
And God told the Israelites to teach their children:
Deuteronomy 4 10 From the day in which thou didst stand before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord spoke to me, saying: Call together the people unto me, that they may hear my words, and may learn to fear me all the time that they live on the earth, and may teach their children.
So, throughout Scripture, God tells us to lean on the understanding of men.
Certainly it does. This speaks to all men and says that the Church is authority over our disputes. Further it says if we don't obey the Church we will be cast out.Quote:
This does not command us to obey your denomination or any other. It speak of local church discipline.
I never said the Church was manmade. Unless you mean because Jesus is both God and man. The Church was made by Jesus. That is Catholic teaching.Quote:
But is does refute the false teaching that it is a manmade organization, whether we speak of your denomination or any other denomination.
And thereby lose it.Quote:
Man can reject their salvation.
Really? Is your body disorganized? What do you think the word "organization" means?Quote:
Wow! How you can conclude that is beyond me. It says the exact opposite.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Very good! Did I say to lean on your own understanding or why did you post this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
Here's one for you:
What does this mean:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,
Does this mean I should learn from the leaders of my Church? Or does this say that I should not lean on their understanding but on my own?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.
Acknowledge him, meaning God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit....
He shall direct your ways....
Or Mormons and Christians. (Remember you believe as Mormons do that men become God and that heaven is a place of everlasting fire)Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
You do know that all scripture must be read in context and that you cannot take snippets out of context to argue a point.Quote:
Why yes? Which Scripture are you reading?
Prov 3:5
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
NKJV
2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
Here the BIBLE tells me to lean on the understanding of men:
First let's note that you omitted a large portion of scripture and tied two verses together that are not following one another in scripture. By so doing, you are changing what scripture says. Let's look at the context, using a better translation:Quote:
Hebrews 13
7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Heb 13:7-17
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
NKJV
Note that this refers to men of God whose faith shows their focus on God, and you are to follow the Bible so as not to get carried away with strange doctrines. These men therefore are to teach you the Bible.
No, but you seem to be missing verses 8-16!Quote:
Is that Scripture missing from your Bible?
Really? Where do any of these passage say that they did not teach what the Bible teaches?Quote:
Here Jesus sent men to teach the world what He taught:
Only if you apply your private interpretation to the meaning "church". BTW, there are many church organizations today that would cast Jesus out for telling the truth of the gospel - that does not mean that we should obey a church denomination which does not adhere to the word of God.Quote:
Certainly it does. This speaks to all men and says that the Church is authority over our disputes. Further it says if we don't obey the Church we will be cast out.
Denominations are all manmade.Quote:
I never said the Church was manmade.
Did yours fall out of your pocket?Quote:
And thereby lose it.
What are the signs and how do you know for sure, that you have been "Born again"?
John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14And as Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 3:
31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. (meaning Jesus)
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Mark 16:
14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Rom 15:
18For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Hebrews 2
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
When you confess you are a sinner and in need of Salvation, when you believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and confess with your mouth His Lordship. The signs that follow will be a change of heart, of attitude, but we must remember Jesus is the Head of the church, and the Word of God is Truth.
We were given aplostle, prophets, teachers preachers, to teach us and for the perfecting of the saints. But we were also given the Holy Spirit, and a heavenly language to lead us into all truth.
We are called the children of God and His Spirit dwells in us,and will lead us into all truth. We are to compare anything that is told to us, no matter what title he calls himself, we are to compare it with the Word of God, God will not contradict Himself.
We know we are the children of God if we walk in love for God is Love, and do those things pleasing in HIS sight.
If God's Word is not final authority in one's life they need to, in my opinion, repent and either get born-again, or if they are born-again, renew their minds with the word of God as we are instructed to do.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Jesus is our High Priest, and we have been made priests unto God, so that we now have a Way to God, Jesus is the Door, we can go into the very Presence of God in His Name, and fellowship with our Father. God said for us to call upon Him and He would answer us, He would be our everpresent Help in time of trouble, and He would show us His Salvation.
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