I agree that Calvinism goes further. That is why I said that it was one of the key tenets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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I agree that Calvinism goes further. That is why I said that it was one of the key tenets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
And Calvinism twists what you call a "key tenet" into something very different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Agreed. Your earlier comment sounded very much like that Calvinist doctrine, but if you are saying that you reject the Calvinist belief that man cannot make a decision to receive Christ, then we are in agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
That is a false impression. People are taught to love God by showing His goodness.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
However, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. If one never learns to love God but he does learn to fear God, there is nothing wrong with that. Because, as Scripture says:
Hebrews 10 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I don't know why you have arrived at that conclusion. It might have to do with the fact that human beings seem to be drawn to the morbid and the negative. Many more good things occur each day than evil. Yet all we see on the news is the evil committed by man.Quote:
I know the importance of knowing the consequences of actions taken. But why does instilling fear of the consequences seem to be the forefront of stopping bad actions?
Yes. And my parents used both. Didn't yours? Although they also frequently said, "because I say so!"Quote:
When you were a child and your parents told you not to pick on other children...Should it be, "If you do this you will receive such and such punishment" Or should it be, "It is cruel and wrong to put other people down. This is not how anyone should act." Are they both just as effective?
What if you explain first and they still disobey?Quote:
Maybe both ways are just as effective, but if you choose people's fear of punishment, then they don't gain understanding of why such action shouldn't be done.
When I was a child, before I could understand words, I reached to touch the fire on the stove because it was pretty. A quick slap on the hand prevented my being burned and I understood it more effectively than a whole volume of words.Quote:
I feel that is what is most important. The understanding of why a bad action shouldn't be done teaches morals, it teaches us how to be good persons because that is how people should be and NOT because something bad will happen to you if you do the opposite.
It is unfortunate that many people have a misunderstanding of who and what is God. But that misunderstanding frequently comes from their own desire to do what they want instead of what God wills.Quote:
In my own observations I see how people being taught to love God through their fear of hell causes them to equate God with hell. God should NEVER be equated with hell. Hell has nothing to do with any discriptions of God. I have seen too, that people seem to have a harder time understanding the whole point in Jesus' death. They also don't understand the "door of grace". Many of them think of God as cruel, stern, no sense of humor, stiff and even unfriendly. How can anyone ever be expected to grow close to God when these are the distinctions in the forefront of minds when thinking of Him?
Amen!Quote:
Yes, God is strict and He is the epitome of strength, as well as He should be. But He is more than that too. He is grace, mercy, kindness, forgiveness and LOVE like you've never been loved before. God is the only reason there is love and goodness because that is who He is. Without God there is no good in this world or in people.
Probably as a last resort. After they've tried to tell people of God's love and been ridiculed, then they try to warn people of the consequences of their actions.Quote:
Why do so many people use hell to scare people into loving God instead of allowing God to truly shine through and be loved on His own accord, because He is deserving of it simply because He is God and not because you will go to hell if you don't?!?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Man's acceptance is evidence of the HS already at work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
There's fear and there's fear. What's your definition of "fear of God."Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
MoonlitWaves,
I agree that is the way it should be and I do believe that the bible teaches that very way.
In short, those who forgive are forgiven in like manner.
That is what Jesus taught us to pray.
That is why I forgive everyone who has sinned against me via thought, word or deed whether I know about it or not.
I pray that God forgives me in like manner.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Definitions of fear on the Web:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
* be afraid or feel anxious or apprehensive about a possible or probable situation or event; "I fear she might get aggressive"
* be afraid or scared of; be frightened of; "I fear the winters in Moscow"; "We should not fear the Communists!"
* be sorry; used to introduce an unpleasant statement; "I fear I won't make it to your wedding party"
* an emotion experienced in anticipation of some specific pain or danger (usually accompanied by a desire to flee or fight)
* concern: an anxious feeling; "care had aged him"; "they hushed it up out of fear of public reaction"
* be uneasy or apprehensive about; "I fear the results of the final exams"
* reverence: regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; "Fear God as your father"; "We venerate genius"
* a feeling of profound respect for someone or something; "the fear of God"; "the Chinese reverence for the dead"; "the French treat food with gentle reverence"; "his respect for the law bordered on veneration"
Wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Almost every word in the dictionary has multiple meanings.
The term "fear of God" as used in Scripture also has multiple meanings. It may mean "awe or great respect".
Exodus 18 21 And provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, in whom there is truth, and that hate avarice, and appoint of them rulers of thousands, and of hundreds, and of fifties, and of tens.
It may also mean "fright".
Hebrews 10 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The Catholic Church uses both aspects of the word. She teaches that it is fine to do good because of the fear of hell. That means that one fears God's judgement.
But it is better to do good because one loves God.
So, there is fear and there is fear and both aspects of the word are acceptable in this case.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I repeat, De Maria: What's your definition of "fear of God"? Let's start with "fear" in the verse you quoted, "Hebrews 10 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
De Maria ,
I believe that fearing God is more respect than being afraid.
Yes a person can fear His wrath but because He is infinite and perfect love and mercy respect is more to my way of thinking,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Hebrews 10 is speaking of the punishment for those who trample under the Son of God and His Sacrifice. It speaks of punishment and of God's vengeance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Therefore, in Hebrews 10, "fearful" means "to be afraid of punishment for wrong doing."
29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Now provide your definition of "fear of God". Lets compare and see which is Biblical.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I respect your opinion Fred. Those of us who love God need not fear Him. But Scripture is clear that those who do not love God and trample underfoot His Son and the Blood of the Covenant which His Sacrifice provided for our salvation, they need to fear Him:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Romans 12 19 Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The closest you've come to defining "fear of God" is in message #86.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
"There's fear and there's fear". That's not exactly a scholarly definition. So define your understanding of the term and lets see whose understanding, yours or mine is more Biblical.Quote:
There's fear and there's fear. What's your definition of "fear of God."
Sincerely,
De Maria
You were "Catholic Church says this" and "Catholic Church says that." I was curious as to what you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Now I am to define "fear" so you can decide if I'm correct? No, thanks.
I'm glad you recognize that. I, like Christ, do not carry my message, but the Church's message. And the Church carries Christ's message and Christ carries the Father's message.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
That's how it works. If I were teaching my own Gospel, if I ever teach my own Gospel, I am anathema (Gal 1:8).
Ok.Quote:
Now I am to define "fear" so you can decide if I'm correct? No, thanks.
Bye!
Actually, from what I see on here, you carry your denomination's message.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The Church existed long before there were denominations so technically the Catholic Church is not a denomination but the mother Church of all those who splintered away.
So the bible and history teach us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
That was the one thing wrong with Tom's comment. Denominations came along during the Reformation. And yes, the Catholic Church is the mother of all Christian churches.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
It is a denomination by definition. The term denomination comes from the root word "nom" which means name. Once you have a group of churches combined together under one name, you have a denomination, and this happened in 325AD when Constantine created the Roman Catholic church.
You subsequently have splinters - the next being the Orthodox Church denominations.
Um, check your church history books, Tom. The Early Church of the NT became the Catholic Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Wondergirl,
YOU got that right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes, it did - in 325AD Constantine commanded the churches to meet and combined the pagan Roman religion of which he was the high priest (Pontiff) with the churches into a single organization, which was the Roman Catholic Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Wondergirl,
Notice how some people like to twist history to say as they want to believe.
What the bible says is "The Church" was renamed years later the "Catholic Church" to identify it from some other groups that called themselves a church.
That is historically correct.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Please visit your local library and check in the 200s, Church History. In 325 Constantine summoned Christian churchmen to the Council of Nicea which established the doctrine of the Trinity and rejected Arianism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What pagan Roman religion??
Wondergirl,
Congratulations... You are correct and history proves that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Read this quote from Roman Catholic Cardinal John Henry NewmanQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
-------------------------
We are told in various ways by Eusebius that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and those dedicated to the particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water, asylums, holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church.2
--------------------------
I have thoroughly studied this period of church history. I suggest that you likewise. First, check out the history behind the pope's title:
Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Second, grab book written by a Roman Catholic Historian called "Constantine's Sword".
Once you have done that, maybe you will understand a bit better. But even at that, it is only a start. It would be best to do your research first and then let's discuss this topic.
Tj3,
That quote dose NOT say what you are trying to twist it to say.
The New region spoken of is the Christian religion started by the Son of God.
Nothing you can say or infer will change that fact.
God has given the world both His Law and the Gospel.
It is not always easy to apply these properly to the needs of people. Those who are seeking God and aware of their own inability to hit the mark of perfection, need to hear of God's love and His free gift of salvation. Those who are self-righteous or secure in their sins against God and peole, need to hear the Ten Commandment fully explained and the consequences ("The wages of sin is death") explained also.
God speaks often enough in the Bible about His "wrath" and the "curses" He will visit on people who REJECT Him and His Laws for righteous living.
This is sort of the old "Carrot or the stick" application. If people do not seek and follow God because of His love for all, then they need to know that they will not spend eternity with Him unless they repent of their evil towards others.
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
It cannot be. Newman is referring to a religion into which Constantine brought pagan practices, and he could not have done that until after he stopped oppressing Christianity, which was in the 4th century. Further, once pagan practices were mixed with the Christians practices, iot was no longer Christianity as we find in the NT, but it was an adulterated religion which was changed to make it attractive to the adherents of Roman paganism.
Check out the history Fred!
I have, I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This was written by (per your old friend, Wikipedia) James P. Carroll, a former priest, who attributed to the Catholic Church a history of antisemitism and argued that this became the foundation for the hatred that led to the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis.Quote:
Second, grab book written by a Roman Catholic Historian called "Constantine's Sword".
I won't even get into Eusebius and Newman.
Then you should be aware of the role of Constantine, and of the pagan Roman religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Have you ever studied Albert Ellis's RET?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The point was not about God's character... but the character of the "Christian"Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
"Perfect love castes out all fear". God is love, and what is not of love is not of God. Knowing God loves us without conditions is the source of our beliefs and strength to endure each moment. Without love, our faith is imperfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
I think that you are on the wrong thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Not at all. It has to do with your use of the word "should." Be careful. And yes, it's off-topic, but then we were anyway. Now, back to the topic on the table...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I don't believe that you can cause anyone to love someone through fear. You may be able to scare them into submission, to force them to respect your power and authority... but not love as God desires from us.
Fear is used RIGHTLY to restrain the wicked or lawless. Those people of the earth who do not love their fellowman need to run up against civil laws as if these laws were a curb or wall. The law and its warning of unpleasant consequence can have enough of a fear factor to hold most people from hurting others. At least for a time. Of course there are those who are not hindered even by fear of corporeal punishment.
God's Law was given for that primary effect too. It is not a "way of salvation" BECAUSE no one can do everything that His Law (His will) desires. No one born of man is perfect and so cannot keep the Law perfectly... and so can not come up to the state necessary to live with God in His eternal kingdom.
That's where the good news of Jesus Christ comes in. He DID live a perfect life and gives it to us as a free gift. And THAT is where love comes in. In Christ we see the greatness of the love of God for each of us. He died that we might enjoy the love of God now and in eternity.
But back to the fear factor; since we have been freed from the threat of the law we told NOT to go back to living in fear as we did when we didn't know God and were enslaved by sin.
Rom 8:1-4, 15-17
8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit...
15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear , but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs — heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
NIV
We who have been redeemed still have the Law of God because it does show the will of God for us. And it even "convicts us" (tweaks our conscience to warn us that we are moving outside the will of God), but the truth of God's love for those who have become His children through faith overcomes any fear.
The sad thing is that the people of the world who don't know/trust the love of God for themselves will continue to live in the fear of death and judgement.
If you are not prepared to discuss, and if you are posting off topic, then you should not be posting vague ill-defined comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I am involved in writing technical documents and documents which sometimes have a legal implication where such words are required to be use in specific contexts, and as such I use the word "should" and similar terms specifically as they should be. If you have any challenges, then they ought to be on topic, and no
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