All this shows the great division between the RC and the rest of Christendom. We simply do not believe that the RC is THE Church. We believe that the Scriptures are our complete guide for all things spiritual; that no man has the right to change or add to them.
I don't want to appear hateful, so let me state here that I do not hate Catholics, I see them as deceived.
I personally firmly believe that the RC is one of the oldest, largest cults in the world.
What did the first Church look like? Its members healed the sick supernaturally, cast out devils, raised the dead (In come cases). They were given directions from God via the Holy Spirit by tongues & interpretatiion or by word of prophecy. They knew things because the Holy Spirit told them. You only find such things today in the pentecostal movement. (I agree that it is sorely diminished from the Book of Acts, but there are remnants where these things still take place.) For Bible reference see 1 Corinthians Ch 12.

Several major things cause me to reject the RC as the Church.
1. Their rejection of Scripture as absolute authority.
2. Their deification of Mary. (I honor Mary for her unique position in God's plan)
3. Their doctrine of trans substantiation; that the wafer and wine are ACTUALLY the body and blood of Jesus. If it is indeed the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus, then it is an object of worship, and is a form of idolatry. (If you doubt it you need to read Charles Chiniquy's book)
Again, I repeat, I do not hate Catholics, and I find myself in agreement with DeMaria many times, but not here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Several major things cause me to reject the RC as the Church.
1. Their rejection of Scripture as absolute authority.
2. Their deification of Mary. (I honor Mary for her unique position in God's plan)
3. Their doctrine of trans substantiation; that the wafer and wine are ACTUALLY the body and blood of Jesus. If it is indeed the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus, then it is an object of worship, and is a form of idolatry. (If you doubt it you need to read Charles Chiniquy's book)
Again, I repeat, I do not hate Catholics, and I find myself in agreement with DeMaria many times, but not here.

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1. Scripture alone is not supported by Scripture alone. And the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture.
2. The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary is divine.
3. The early Christians understood the Eucharist to be the body and blood of Christ.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165).

Also one of the issues I don't think was addressed was for the first several hundred years there was no official "scripture" one church may have had one or two writings, another church had 4 or 5 but 2 of them were not the ones that were finally on the approved list. And for the first 20 and 30 years there was no written word at all.

The Church was always the beleivers and the spoken word of God. The written word gives us the guidline to compare out conduct and actions by, and to compare the actions of others to be sure they are following the word of God. But it is easy to see from the scripture that the Church was for more than any written word.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Also one of the issues I don't think was addressed was for the first several hundred years there was no official "scripture" one church may have had one or two writings, another church had 4 or 5 but 2 of them were not the ones that were finally on the approved list. And for the first 20 and 30 years there was no written word at all.

---

We hear this a lot, but believers were never without scripture. For example:

2 Tim 3:14-15
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

Yes, this refers to the OT, but note that even in the OT we have everything that we needed to know about the gospel. The NT provides clarity regarding the fulfillment of the prophecy regarding the gospel but has not added anything which is not covered in the OT.

When Jesus Himself sought to validate a point of doctrine in discussion, where did He refer? To scripture. Do we then consider any source to be more authoritative than that which Jesus considered authoritative?

We are further commanded not to go beyond what was written:

1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
NKJV

Yes, men may preach and may speak on doctrine, but no man is permitted to go beyond what is written.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wangdoodle

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165).[/I]

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This is the first time I have seen or heard the Catholic view point applied this way. It has always been contary to what my friend that are Catholic tell me. And the Lurtheran church too, that I have known. My Catholic friends have always added that the priest of the church is the only one that can make the request in prayer. That is why going to any other Christian church leaves me out of receiving what Christ offered. Which I strongly disagree.
Is it likely that different division has occurred in the Catholic church that changes thes from one teaching to another? I have seen this placement within the Lurtheran church.

With all this discussion, Amen to the agreement, that we do not hate the Catholic church or any Christian teaching of Truth. The belief of our Lord and Savior Christ. And to causion the stumblingblock of another is a sin . Making unclean what God has cleaned.

sndbay,
Justin was a priest. He could consecrated the bread and wine so that the Holy Spirit would change it into the body and blood of Christ Jesus just as other priests can.
Jesus is the high priest and it was He who commanded His priests (apostles) to do that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My opinion and belief of this would be as the scriptures tell us..

1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

We are to eat and digest this all as Truth of the sacrifice Christ made, and belief in knowing Christ was worthy in delivering us forgiveness.

Yeah it doesn't clearly state if it is literally transfigured in the Catholic sense or symbolically

By eating and drinking you are taking all in as being one in flesh with Christ.

Jesus talked of the water and drinking it. The water He had to offer.

sndbay,well said,'Here is what Jesus said...
John4:7. When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Give me something to drink."
8. His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.
9. The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew. How is it that you ask me, a Samaritan, for something to drink?", Jews, of course, do not associate with Samaritans.
10. Jesus replied to her:
If you only knew what God is offering
And who it is that is saying to you,
`Give me something to drink,"
you would have been the one to ask,
and he would have given you living water.

11. `You have no bucket, sir," she answered, "and the well is deep: how do you get this living water?
12. Are you a greater man than our father Jacob, who gave us this well and drank from it himself with his sons and his cattle?"
13. Jesus replied:
Whoever drinks this water
Will be thirsty again;

14. But no one who drinks the water that I shall give
Will ever be thirsty again:
The water that I shall give
Will become a spring of water within, welling up for eternal life.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
Justin was a priest. He could consecrated the bread and wine so that the Holy Spirit would change it into the body and blood of Christ Jesus just as other priests can.
Jesus is the high priest and it was He who commanded His priests (apostles) to do that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Where did Jesus command priests to "change it into the body and blood of Christ Jesus"? Could you quote us that passage of scripture?

Please also note that I am also a priest, as are all those who have been saved through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
NKJV

The separate priesthood required by the Old Covenant which provided mediators between men and God was done away with by the sacrifice on the cross. We who are saved now are able to go directly to throne of the Father in the name of Jesus, who is our high priest.

Heb 3:1-3
3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
NKJV

The Apostles were a special group of men, and scripture tells us that there were only 12 of them (for example Rev 21:14)

Tj3,
To answer your question…….
Luke 22:14. When the time came he took his place at table, and the apostles with him.
15. And he said to them, "I have ardently longed to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16. because, I tell you, I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
17. Then, taking a cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and share it among you,
18. because from now on, I tell you, I shall never again drink wine until the kingdom of God comes."
19. Then he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
20. He did the same with the cup after supper, and said, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood poured out for you.
Also this which shows that the consecrated bread and wine becomes Christ’s body and blood.
John 6: 48. I am the bread of life.
49. Your fathers ate manna in the desert and they are dead;
50. but this is the bread which comes down from heaven,
so that a person may eat it and not die.
51. I am the living bread which has come down from heaven.
Anyone who eats this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I shall give is my flesh, for the life of the world."
52. Then the Jews started arguing among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53. Jesus replied to them: “In all truth I tell you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise that person up on the last day.
55. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in that person.
57. As the living Father sent me and I draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will also draw life from me.
58. This is the bread which has come down from heaven;
It is not like the bread our ancestors ate: they are dead, but anyone who eats this bread will live for ever. “
And this which affirms that the bread and wine do become the body and blood of Christ Jesus.
1 Corin. 10: 14. For that reason, my dear friends, have nothing to do with the worship of false gods.
15. I am talking to you as sensible people; weigh up for yourselves what I have to say.
16. The blessing-cup, which we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ; and the loaf of bread which we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ?
17. And as there is one loaf, so we, although there are many of us, are one single body, for we all share in the one loaf.
18. Now compare the natural people of Israel: is it not true that those who eat the sacrifices share the altar?
19. What does this mean? That the dedication of food to false gods amounts to anything? Or that false gods themselves amount to anything?
20. No, it does not; simply that when pagans sacrifice, what is sacrificed by them is sacrificed to demons who are not God. I do not want you to share with demons.
21. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons as well; you cannot have a share at the Lord's table and the demons' table as well.
22. Do we really want to arouse the Lord's jealousy; are we stronger than he is?
:) :) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

First, nothing that you posted commanded priest to change the bread and wine, but nonetheless, let's go on.

I note that you omitted large parts of John 6. Let's look at this more closely.

He said in different ways that he is the bread that came from heaven but they did not appear to understand or believe.

John 6:42-47
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
NKJV

Note that Jesus says that He is the bread of life and that whosoever eats that bread shall live and not die. Further, we are told that those who ate the flesh in the wilderness died. The bread in the desert, the manna, was simply symbolic of Jesus, with Jesus being the true bread of life.

John 6:47-56
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
NKJV

Jesus says that we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and if we do, we receive eternal life. We need to read the full context and not just stop here if we need to find if indeed this is referring to actual human flesh and blood.

John 6:54-61
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
NKJV

Eating the flesh that Jesus speaks of and eating the blood means that we abide in Jesus and will live forever. Note: Taken literally, up to this point, this appears to provide a second means of salvation – if we were to eat His flesh and drink His blood, we gain eternal life. Is that what is meant? If we were to stop here, it would appear that the Catholics are right. But to stop without reading the full context would not be using sound Biblical exegesis, so lets continue on.

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

Now Jesus now says that the flesh profits nothing. This appears contrary to verses 53-4 that state that we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and if we do, we receive eternal life, but then Jesus clarifies by stating that Jesus says that the words are the spirit and the life. This is why it is important to continue on and read the full context because Jesus has just struck to the very heart of the doctrine of transubstantiation by saying that the flesh does not profit us at all. Rather He says, that the life comes from the spirit, not the flesh and it is the words that bring the spirit.

Words = spirit = life, Flesh does not profit anything.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 4:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

It is God's word that brings life and the spirit, not eating the flesh. Therefore, even if the bread were changed to flesh, there would be no benefit from eating it. Now, remember earlier in this document, it was noted that human flesh and blood do perish and yet the bread that Jesus offered did not perish? Here is the explanation. Jesus was not speaking of bread, or of blood or of flesh but was speaking of the words of God which bring life. God word and the life which comes from God's word (the Gospel) are eternal. Bread, flesh and blood are perishable, but God's word and salvation which comes from receiving the gospel are eternal.

64a But there are some of you who do not believe.

Some do not believe that the flesh profits nothing rather and thus do not believe that it is His words that give the spirit and life. If they do not believe that the flesh profits nothing, then they must believe that it is the flesh rather than His words that He is speaking about.

64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

63 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

The Apostles remain true and believe that the flesh profits nothing but rather believe in His words for the spirit and life. What could be the words that Jesus speaks which bring life? It is the words of truth, the truth of who He is, the truth or why He came to earth in the flesh and the words that give us the truth of the gospel, the only words which can bring us eternal life. Those who believed that He was speaking about the actual eating of flesh and drinking of blood missed the point of the gospel and were not saved. Those who stayed understood that without a sacrifice and without the shedding of blood, there was no remission of sins, and that Jesus was the lamb of God, sent to be the ultimate sacrifice, the only sacrifice which could actually take away sins and restore us to a right relationship with God.

There are numerous problems with interpreting this passage as supporting transubstantiation. Some of these problems are:

1) Jesus clear and specific words that explain this as not having anything to do with the actual flesh.

2) Jesus is using this to exhort those who profess to follow Him to digest His words, not His flesh.

3) Those who believed that He was teaching cannibalism (eating the flesh and drinking the blood) were the ones who turned away from Jesus. Those who understood that this had nothing to do with consuming human flesh and blood stayed with Jesus.

Ironically, by promoting this passage as promoting the eating of flesh and drinking of blood, the belief in transubstantiation actually turns against the actual teaching of Christ, which was to digest His words because they are the source of life and instead they turn away from His clear teachings in John 6 and insist that it is necessary to eat His flesh. Instead of looking towards that bread which never perishes and brings eternal life, the word of God, the gospel, the doctrine of transubstantiation looks for eternal life in that which is perishable, bread, wine, flesh and blood.

Tj3,
If Jesus said to do it, to me that means to DO IT.
He said, "Do this to remember (or recall) me"
He said it to His apostles, no one else.
What you posted of John does not change the point I was making.
Thanks for your effort though it will not change what the bible clearly says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I still don't see where it means it is not a spiritual (symbolic) term but a transubstantiation
To drink his blood and eat his flesh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
If Jesus said to do it, to me that means to DO IT.
He said, "Do this to remember (or recall) me"
He said it to His apostles, no one else.
What you posted of John does not change the point I was making.
Thanks for your effort though it will not change what the bible clearly says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

---

I agree that if Jesus says to do it, that we should do it.

My question was, where does He command priests to change the substance of wine and bread? In John 6, Jesus said specifically that he does NOT means for use to eat actual flesh. You did not answer this question.

And you are right, He says to do this in remembrance (symbolic) of Him.

Lastly, if you are suggesting that because He said it to His Apostles alone that that means that it does not apply to anyone else, then it would undermine your point since there were only 12 Apostles.

Fred I have to agree with TJ3.. You are speaking of a teaching that comes from your church. Who also believes the church can take away from the individual, his right to receive the body and blood from whom they feel should not have it.
Like TJ3 said the Bread and Body that Christ speaks of is that which can not be stolen or lost if the individual remains stedfast in his love and belief in Christ. The individual must find Christ worthy . He is the Treasure..

There are scripture that strengthen this fact.

This contrary debate is found throughout several exact symbolic teaching that Christ has spoken of.. The water , The Rock, and now the Body and Blood.

Jeremiah 59:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Where do Christains find their resting place? In Christ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
If Jesus said to do it, to me that means to DO IT.
He said, "Do this to remember (or recall) me"
He said it to His apostles, no one else.
What you posted of John does not change the point I was making.
Thanks for your effort though it will not change what the bible clearly says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

---

Christ did tell the apostles this, and the Apostles are the small stone of the Rock. Christ said feed my sheep to the apostles.. Christ was talking about the apostles feeding us His Word and Truth.

This forum does not fill me with what Christ has offered. Instead it puts stumblingblocks before each, and cast stone upon the Truth. This is not what Christians partake of, nor do I intend to continue. Hearing false teaching. There are forum available that teach the Word of God. TheSeason.Org

If you are going to argue that Jesus gave His Apostles REAL blood to drink, then He would have been guilty of sin according to the Law. You know that is not so, therefore your argument falls on its face.

Galviston1,
Not so.
Jesus did say that this IS, my body, this IS my blood.
I believe what God the son said.
Jesus blood is divine blood, not any ordinary kind.
God is the law giver. If He says to eat His Body and Drink His blood then so be it and millions of people have been doing so for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Galviston1,
Not so.
Jesus did say that this IS, my body, this IS my blood.
I believe what God the son said.
Jesus blood is divine blood, not any ordinary kind.
God is the law giver. If He says to eat His Body and Drink His blood then so be it and millions of people have been doing so for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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But Fred, in John 6 Jesus said specifically and explicitly that He was NOT referring to the physical flesh and blood, but rather that it was those who thought that was the case that betrayed Him.

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
NKJV

Tj3,
Never-the-less Jesus SAID this Is my Body, this IS my blood.
I hope you do not mind if I believe what Jesus said.
When Jesus told his followers that "truly, truly" his body was food indeed and his blood drink indeed many walked away. The twelve did NOT. They accepted what Jesus said.
I note that Jesus did NOT call the ones who left back. Jesus meant exactly what he said and so do I and over a billion other people.
You believe as you wish as I will. OK?
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Never-the-less Jesus SAID this Is my Body, this IS my blood.
I hope you do not mind if I believe what Jesus said.
When Jesus told his that "truly, truly" his body was food indeed and his blood drink indeed many walked away.

---

Fred,

It is important that we not stop there and neglect to read the whole of what Jesus said when He explained what He meant, otherwise you are taking Jesus' words out of context.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

Quote:

---

I note that Jesus did NOT call them back. Jesus meant exactly what he said and so do I and a billion other people.

---

He did indeed mean what He said. Those who thought that He was referring to actual flesh left Him.

John 6:61-63
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

Why did He not call them back? They rejected His words. They only heard what they wanted to hear.

Quote:

---

You believe as you wish as I will. OK?

---

You are always welcome to believe as you wish.

Tj3,
You believe it your way, Tom, and I will believe it as I said, I believe Jesus made it clear that his body IS food indeed and His blood drink indeed, truly, truly.
That is good enough for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You believe it your way, Tom, and I will believe it as I said, I believe Jesus made it clear that his body IS food indeed and His blood drink indeed, truly, truly.
That is good enough for me.

---

Yes, Fred, and then He explained what He meant:

John 6:54-61
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
NKJV

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

We abide by the words that Jesus has spoken - that is the Holy Scripture.

This is in agreement with what Jesus said in the gospel according to Matthew:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

Tj3,
Thanks Tom, I'm glad to see that you finally agree that the Eucharist IS the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Since you say you believe what Jesus "truly, truly" said the discussion is over.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Thanks Tom, I'm glad to see that you finally agree that the Eucharist IS the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Since you say you believe what Jesus "truly, truly" said the discussion is over.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Fred,

How you managed to twist what I said into that is beyond me.

Fred, why won't you read the last portion of John 6 where Jesus explains what He means?

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

We abide by the words that Jesus has spoken - that is the Holy Scripture.

This is in agreement with what Jesus said in the gospel according to Matthew:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

Why won't you deal with the issue raised earlier by someone else that Jesus would have sinned if He commanded eating of human flesh?

And I must tell you, the problems with the belief in transubstantiation in scripture do not end there. Not by a long shot.

I have also comments on the previous post but I would like to give comment on the original question.

As you have quoted above, the church is being taught by the bible, thus, it is important.

Matthew 28:20 states "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen". So, blatant negligence of the importance of the church is disobeying Christ.

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Originally Posted by Criado

I have also comments on the previous post but I would like to give comment on the original question.

As you have quoted above, the church is being taught by the bible, thus, it is important.

Matthew 28:20 states "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen". So, blatant negligence of the importance of the church is disobeying Christ.

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Yes, but that raises the question of "what is the church?". Is it the body of Christ? Is it the building that you enter on Sunday morning? Is it the congregation of people of who attend with you Sunday morning? Is it your church organization or denomination?

This is a critical question to answer because how we will respond depends greatly on how the word "church" is used in a specific context.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Yes, but that raises the question of "what is the church?". Is it the body of Christ? Is it the building that you enter on Sunday morning? Is it the congregation of people of who attend with you Sunday morning? Is it your church organization or denomination?

This is a critical question to answer because how we will respond depends greatly on how the word "church" is used in a specific context.

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The church is the body of Christ. It is never a building made by hands of man. There is no indication in the bible that a physical building is ever called a church. What I mean here is the real church build by Christ--inclusive of its real biblical essence. It is referred to by the bible as the congregation of saints.

I am just emphasizing the importance of the church because it is part of the teaching of Christ. The term I used "As you have quoted above, the church is being taught by the bible, thus, it is important" only refers to 1 Tim 3:15 and not Matt 18:17 because Matt 18:17 was used out of context.

De maria
It is obvious that you are filled with some doubts. My advice is that you talk to God personally. Only He can explain a lot of things like why there is more than one denomination of churches and yet the bible calls us one body in Christ. Sincerely I have never comprehended it and frankly I don't think I will.
I just think you should form a deep and personal relationship with the Father and He would bring all things to your knowledge.
If you seek wisdom only He can give it. I have never felt oblidged to live my life according to church doctrines. I am justified by Christ and any question I have He answers.
Only God can give you a precise and accurate answer to your question.
So ask him.

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Originally Posted by Criado

The church is the body of Christ. It is never a building made by hands of man. There is no indication in the bible that a physical building is ever called a church. What I mean here is the real church build by Christ--inclusive of its real biblical essence. It is referred to by the bible as the congregation of saints.

I am just emphasizing the importance of the church because it is part of the teaching of Christ. The term I used "As you have quoted above, the church is being taught by the bible, thus, it is important" only refers to 1 Tim 3:15 and not Matt 18:17 because Matt 18:17 was used out of context.

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Agreed. The church is the body of Christ, the body of all believers, alive and dead.

I just wanted to clarify the point regarding what the church is because often in these discussions we get people who claim that their denomination or local church building/congregation is "the Church". This is of course not correct because a physical congregation usually consists of both believers and non-believers, and thus cannot be the body of Christ, even though the body of Christ may be part of that congregation.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

So The Church (Catholic) is Christ therefore we are to have faith that whatever the Popes declare to be is to be even though there is no Biblical basis and even contradicted in Scripture because The Catholic Church is believed before the scripture?

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It is difficult to answer this question because you are hyper interpreting what I said.

1. The Pope does not declare anything which is not in agreement with Scripture.

That doesn't mean it is explicitly in Scripture. But it doesn't violate Scripture. For instance, again the doctrine of Sola Scriptura which you don't follow but many people do. That violates Scripture since Scripture tells us that the Church is also our authority.

2. Since the Catholic Church teaches us the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition, the Catholic Church is never in violation of Scripture. And since the Scripture says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15), we have faith that the Church never will violate Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Christ gave BELIEVERS the power to Bind and Loose so why do you want to give your God given powers over to the Church?

The church is to teach, instruct, edify and strengthen. Not impose rituals.

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Scripture tells us that Jesus gave this power to the Apostles who were the foundation of the Church.

And the Church does not impose rituals. These rituals are performed in obedience of Christ's command to "do this in remembrance of me" (Luke 22:19).

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by sndbay

I best answered your question by using scripture.

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And so we put Scripture against Scripture. Or more to the point, your interpretation of Scripture vs the Catholic Church interpretation.

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And again I state firmly that the Bible is the Word of God written in scripture.

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That is Catholic Teaching.

But Scripture says the Word of God is also passed down orally:

1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.

And since Scripture says that we keep the "traditions" by word and epistle that is, by word and Scripture, why do you seem to be telling me that the Word of God can no longer be passed on by Word?

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I also made a statement using the scripture on Peter being told by the priest that he was not to speak of Christ and His blood. Peter replied that he would rather do as God has told him.

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But did Peter say that he would rather do as Scripture told Him? No. Because Peter was inspired directly by God. And it is upon Peter that Jesus instituted His Church. So Peter here represents the Church doing what God said.

You are trying to remove Peter from the Church, but that is impossible. Peter is one with the Church because he is one with the Body of Christ.

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There are several that call themselves a church.. there are members that attend these church... The question is which church has the foundation of Christ.

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A very good question. As before, I believe it is the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church does not contradict Scripture.

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And as Peter told the priest, He would follow the Word of God.

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And the Church of Peter continues to follow the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition.

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Now you tell me, Do you feel the priest felt he knew what Holy Sacred Text was saying better then what Peter knew in his heart?

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Did the Priest even mentione Holy Sacred Text? You are reading that into Scripture.

The Priest here represents the Old Testament system in which God also instituted Priests. The new Priests in the New Church in the New Testament are here represented by Peter. It is the Old System vs the New. Not the Scriptures vs the Church. You are reading that into Scripture.

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Paul stated in Colossians which I already submitted to you by scripture refer: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

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Correct and as our Minister in the Church He taught the Word of God in Tradition and Scripture. I see nothing here which even remotely insinuates that we must disregard the Church nor place it against the Scriptures as though one was in competition with the other.

In fact, the Church has the mission of Teaching the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition.

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You are asking the same question , and in my opinion you may not like what I find in my heart as Peter did, to be all the Truth.

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I believe the Scripture is all the truth as you do. But did the Truth lose its force when it was written down?

1. The Church was inspired Jesus and then by the Holy Spirit to teach the Word of God.
2. Tradition first carried the Word of God and was passed down orally.
3. After the Scriptures were written, Tradition did not lose its force. It retained the Word of God which is now ALSO in Scripture and continues to teach it and pass it on.

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Hopefully you also find your church minister, according to the dispensation of God

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I do.

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1 Peter 1: 17- 21And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

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Interesting that you would quote this. Do you understand that St. Peter is juxtaposing one tradition vs another. We were not redeemed by the tradition of the Jewish Fathers. But we are redeemed by the Precious Blood of Christ, which we receive in the Chalice whereby we proclaim His death until He come:

1 Corinthians 11 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come.

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The Word of God warns us not to be deceived as Eve was by false teaching.

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And that is why God has provided us the Pillar of Truth to which we may run to get correct teaching.

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I trust he fore told us all things for a very good reason.

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I trust He provided the Church for a very good reason.

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It was Satan who tempted Christ in twisted scriptures..

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The Church does not twist Scripture but teaches Scripture. So what is the point here?

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Answer: Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God
.Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

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Jesus also said:

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 10 27 That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops.

So, my question remains unanswered. Why do you tell us to obey Scripture alone when Scripture obviously tells us to obey the Church?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Point of Interest:
The refer that you yourself have noted was a warning to the church. ( thou oughtest behave thyself )

KJV 1 Timothy 3:14-15 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

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It was a warning to the individual Christian. You oughtest behave yourself in the gathering of the Church because it is the household of God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

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AND You say the church is infallible? I believe we will let God judge how infallible "YOUR CHURCH" that you put before us really is.

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Sounds fair. But more than that. It speaks to our faith in Scripture. I believe Scripture. Therefore I believe there is a Church out there which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth and therefore infallible.

Do you believe Scripture? If you do, which Church do you believe is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

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Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

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My first love is God and because I love God, I love His Word and it is His Church who taught me to love His Word in Scripture and Tradition.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Do you believe Scripture? If you do, which Church do you believe is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

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First, what do you believe the "Church" is? The body of Christ? A building? A local congregation? A denomination?

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

All this shows the great division between the RC and the rest of Christendom.

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Yes and that is a shame:

John 17 11 And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are.

The Catholic Church remains one visible entity teaching one unified doctrine. But the Churches which preach Sola Scriptura are splintered beyond recognition.

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We simply do not believe that the RC is THE Church.

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That is your prerogative. But Jesus did establish one Church. And none of the Reform Churches qualify since they came after Luther.

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We believe that the Scriptures are our complete guide for all things spiritual;

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This contradicts Scripture which teaches that we must obey our leaders because they are in charge of our souls:

Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

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that no man has the right to change or add to them.

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This is true. The Catholic Church has never changed or added to them. The Catholic Church simply teaches them.

It was Luther who added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28. And it was Luther who removed 7 books from the Old Testament.

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I don't want to appear hateful, so let me state here that I do not hate Catholics, I see them as deceived.

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I understand. Understand that we feel the same in turn.

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I personally firmly believe that the RC is one of the oldest, largest cults in the world.

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By "cult", you mean the word in the modern sense of "false religion".

But cult simply means religion. Originally the word did not connote anything negative. In that respect, all religions of the world are cults.

In the ancient sense, the Catholic Church is the oldest Christian religion in the world. That is why I believe the Catholic Church is the one that Jesus built. Because Jesus only built one Church.

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What did the first Church look like?

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Much like the Catholic Church:

Daily Eucharist:
Luke 11 3 Give us this day our daily bread.

Daily Liturgy:
2 Acts Of Apostles 2 46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;

One Shepherd:
John 21 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

One faith
Ephesians 4 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

One doctrine
Romans 16 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.

And there are many other signatures of the Catholic Church in Scripture, in my opinion.

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Its members healed the sick supernaturally, cast out devils, raised the dead (In come cases).

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You write in the past tense as though this no longer happens? The Church continues to canonize Saints to this day:

List of Canonized Saints.
FAQ's - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Pope Benedict XVI canonized Saints already:
Saints and Blesseds Proclaimed by Pope Benedict XVI

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They were given directions from God via the Holy Spirit by tongues & interpretatiion or by word of prophecy. They knew things because the Holy Spirit told them. You only find such things today in the pentecostal movement. (I agree that it is sorely diminished from the Book of Acts, but there are remnants where these things still take place.) For Bible reference see 1 Corinthians Ch 12.

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We still find these things in the Catholic Church.

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Several major things cause me to reject the RC as the Church.
1. Their rejection of Scripture as absolute authority.

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God is our absolute authority. The Word of God is our authority in Tradition and Scripture which is taught us by the Church which Jesus established for that purpose.

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2. Their deification of Mary. (I honor Mary for her unique position in God's plan)

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Do you honor Mary according to the instructions of Scripture? When?

Luke 1 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

We do. Every time we pray a Hail Mary, we repeat the Words of Scripture:

Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord (i.e. Mother of God) should come to me?

If God honored this woman with His Word inscribed in Scripture for all eternity, why don't you?

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3. Their doctrine of trans substantiation; that the wafer and wine are ACTUALLY the body and blood of Jesus. If it is indeed the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus, then it is an object of worship, and is a form of idolatry. (If you doubt it you need to read Charles Chiniquy's book)

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I would rather read the Bible:

Matthew 26 26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. 27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

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Again, I repeat, I do not hate Catholics, and I find myself in agreement with DeMaria many times, but not here.

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Thank you. We have our love of God in common.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

But Jesus did establish one Church. And none of the Reform Churches qualify since they came after Luther.

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Do you believe that Jesus established a denomination? This is critical because if you believe that Jesus established a denomination rather than establishing the body of Christ, it will dramatically change how you interpret scripture.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

First, what do you believe the "Church" is? The body of Christ? A building? A local congregation?

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You ask the question as though it is an either/or proposition.

The Church is the body of Christ. It is also the body of believers. When the Church congregates, the structure within which it congregates is also called the Church. The Church exists in local congregations, the Church of Houston, the Diocese of New York, the Church in America.

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A denomination?

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This is a difficult question. Again, as you were careful to mention, I am answering truthfully and without rancor.

The "churches" which resulted after the Reformation are correctly called denominations and not churches. They do not have Apostolic Succession.

The leaders of the Protestant Reformation were all former Catholic Priests. They were not Bishops. Therefore they could not provide Apostolic Succession.

Acts Of Apostles 1 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

The other Schisms before and possibly the Anglican Schism included the defecture of Bishops who could pass on their orders according to Church Tradition. Therefore the Orthodox and possibly the Anglicans may be correctly called Churches.

That doesn't mean that Reformed Christians aren't members of the Body of Christ and therefore members of the Church. That is guaranteed by their Baptism if they are Baptized according to the Scriptural injunction:

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Those Reformed Christians who reject Baptism and the Church but love Christ are deemed Christians because of their desire to be so. But we can only leave them to the mercy of God since they have rejected the ordinary means of justification provided by Our Lord:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1
God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Sincerely,

De Maria