Ask Me Help Desk - Can you lose your salvation?

Bless you guys, the Lord told me once in an open vision, that is, I had my eyes wide open, that everybody that I meet, is a part of my vineyard and I am a part of theirs.
So let us all help and pray for each other through this journey, there is enough evil in the world, without bringing it into the body of Christ.
For those that are seeking the promise of healing by our gracious and compassionate Father:

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Bless our beautiful Saviour and Lord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountain_man

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D

Yes, See II Peter 2:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Skipper

Yes, See II Peter 2:20

Are you saying "yes" you believe in once saved always saved, or "yes" there are ways to "lose" your salvation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you saying "yes" you believe in once saved always saved, or "yes" there are ways to "lose" your salvation?

Yes, you can lose your salvation by turning away from Christ and going back into sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Skipper

Yes, you can lose your salvation by turning away from Christ and going back into sin.

I agree. I prefer to say that is willfully turning from your salvation. The word "losing" has the connotation of becoming unsaved without a decision to turn away.

0rphan ,
Thank you much for your concern.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I very deliberately chose not to read any of the replies you've gotten, so forgive me if I duplicate anyone else's answer.

I honestly don't believe that we can have our salvation taken away by any force on earth, Heaven, or hell. Even though the verse says something like, "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away," I don't see that as applying to salvation. I figure if He loves us enough to go through ALL that He has on our behalf, up to and including the most extreme so far--the death of His Son for our reconciliation--I don't quite see what reason He would have for taking it away.

However, sometimes I wonder if we can voluntarily give it back.

As an analogy (and probably a rather weak one), suppose I gave you a gift. Maybe I give you a beautiful house with all the taxes paid and the utilities paid for the rest of your life, along with a warranty that would cover any and all repairs. I don't ask for anything in return, just for you to live in this grand house I've given you. Is it not possible for you to move in and enjoy your new gift, but at some point in the future decide that you don't want it anymore, for whatever reason? Can't you always give the keys back to me and move out?

I don't know, just a thought.

DK

kindj
There are several ways to "give the house back"
All of them have been posted here including the big one.
If you do not forgive others to will not be forgive AND to enter heaven you must be forgive.
Unclean souls are not allowed in heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you saying "yes" you believe in once saved always saved, or "yes" there are ways to "lose" your salvation?

2 Peter 2
20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.

That's pretty straight forward.

Here's another:

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

And another:

John 15
5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.

There is no interpretation needed in these verses. The message is clear. You can lose your salvation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

There is no interpretation needed in these verses. The message is clear. You can lose your salvation.

Both verses require decisions (note in the one verse, it even says "willfully"?)

This is not "losing" salvation, but rather is willfully turning from ones salvation.

De Maria,
Right you are.
Expect some others to try to scrum out from under the clear messages.
It is a matter of all that the word "lose" means.
Lose can mean different things to different people.
It's like someone saying
I lost 20 pounds on that diet.
Did they real lose them or did they just melt away.
It is different than saying "I lost my watch" or "I lost my love".
I believe that God's salvation through the sacrifice of "The Lamb of God"
Is available to each person conceived.
If they don't get it they have lost the most valuable thing they had or could have had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

De Maria,
Right you are.
Expect some others to try to scrum out from under the clear messages.
It is a matter of all that the word "lose" means.
Lose can mean different things to different people.
It's like someone saying
I lost 20 pounds on that diet.
Did they real lose them or did they just melt away.
It is different than saying "I lost my watch" or "I lost my love".
I believe that God's salvation through the sacrifice of "The Lamb of God"
is available to each person conceived.
If they don't get it they have lost the most valuable thing they had or could have had.

Then I wonder why you argue so about the word.

What is important is that through the gospel of Jesus Christ, we can have assurance of salvation, and we need not worry about losing our salvation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saintjoan

According to the traditions of the church, no one can really know for sure.
"Whether or not we are Christians, judgment awaits us at death. That judgment depends on whether we have lived our lives in accordance with God’s purpose or whether we have lived it for our own selfish ends. Our place in eternity depends on the sort of life we lead here and upon our attitude to our fellow men. The belief of Catholics. page 170

That seems contrary to scripture which says:

1 Thess 1:5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake
NKJV

saintjoan,
You are right and so is The Church,
The bible tells us we have the "hope" of salvation If we have faith, persevere in it and do the works that prove we have enough faith.
Otherwise a faith without works is dead.
Also one of the works we must do is forgive those who sin against us.
If we do not so forgive we will Not be forgiven.
If we are not forgiven we can not enter heaven.
The bible tells us that clearly.
Thus salvation is Not assured unless we fulfill all that which we are told to do.
That includes being baptized, loving others as Jesus loved us and much more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

saintjoan,
You are right and so is The Church,
The bible tells us we have the "hope" of salvation If we have faith, persevere in it and do the works that prove we have enough faith.
Otherwise a faith without works is dead.
Also one of the works we must do is forgive those who sin against us.
If we do not so forgive we will Not be forgiven.
If we are not forgiven we can not enter heaven.
The bible tells us that clearly.
Thus salvation is Not assured unless we fulfill all that which we are told to do.
That includes being baptized, loving others as Jesus loved us and much more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Do you have assurance of salvation?

Tj3,
To answer your question...
Only God Knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
To answer your question...
Only God Knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,

If you don't know for sure that you have salvation, then you should really start thinking about getting saved.

Love and peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsila1777

If you don't know for sure that you have salvation, then you should really start thinking about getting saved.

I got to say that I agree...

I'm all for being "humble" and all... but a saving faith in Jesus Christ should CERTAINLY give you some assurance of your salvation.

The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."( 2 Cor 17) Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."(Rom 8:21).

tsila1777,
As far as the bible is concerned no one knows for absolute sure but God.
It tells us to HOPE for salvation.
The word hope is in the gospels many times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It also says that Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing not seen.

Substance means: The real physical matter of which a person or thing consists. The choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience. The idea that is intended.

Do you have faith? I assume you do, then you have substance and evidence of your salvation. I believe you are saved...I have more confidence in your salvation than you do. But it is by faith that we are saved through grace and that is the gift of God, that being the Grace and the Faith is the gift of God. So that all glory goes to God. It pleases God when you have faith that is the only way to please God.

So, voice your faith in God because He cannot lie.

Peace and love, dear one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
To answer your question......
Only God Knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is right Fred, and God told us in His word that we those who are saved are given assurance of salvation.

I have assurance of salvation.

Fred, you may want to talk to Scott - he appears to be aware that assurance of salvation is part of the gospel.

From the parable of the seeds where Jesus spoke of those who believed, but some had their faith strangled by the cares of this world and so subjectively "lost" what Jesus won for them.

We are told to make our faith more firm and other such phrases to indicate that we need to be on guard. The vicarious atonement of Christ DOES NOT CHANGE. What could change is a person's disinterest or despising of what He accomplished for us.

Col 1:21-23

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith , established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
NIV

Rev 2:12-13

These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13 I know where you live — where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city — where Satan lives.
NIV

Again I feel the need to throw away my Bible since the Decree supersedes the Bible on salvation.

I think I may start a new post on Bible verses to throw away and do it verse by verse instead of just throwing the entire thing away at once

I guess I start with

King James Bible
Rom 1:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saintjoan

To TJ3
Bible believing Christians, will often quote the Holy Bible to justify their assurance of salvation, quoting verses such as:
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Good verse

Quote:

Therefore Arcura cannot know with certainty that he is going to heaven.

I feel sorry for him.

Quote:

And if you know that you are going to heaven, then you are going to hell, for anyone who knows that they are going to heaven is accursed.

That sounds like the Mormon view - those who go to heaven spend eternity in "everlasting burnings":)

Quote:

Originally Posted by saintjoan

To TJ3
Bible believing Christians, will often quote the Holy Bible to justify their assurance of salvation, quoting verses such as:
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The fundamentalists are willingly ignorant that such a teaching is in fact a damnable heresy. For the church (Roman Catholic) teaches:
If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Canon XV of the Decree on Justification
If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Canon XVI of the Decree on Justification

Correcting the heretical views expressed by the Apostle John.

Therefore Arcura cannot know with certainty that he is going to heaven.

And if you know that you are going to heaven, then you are going to hell, for anyone who knows that they are going to heaven is accursed.

Did Elijah go to heaven or hell?

Kings 2 9 And when they were gone over, Elias said to Eliseus: Ask what thou wilt have me to do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Eliseus said: I beseech thee that in me may be thy double spirit.

And did St. Paul go to heaven or hell?
2 Timothy 4 8 As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming. Make haste to come to me quickly.

I believe they both went to heaven and they both knew beforehand that they would go to heaven.

The Church teaching is thus:

CHAPTER XII.

That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

That sounds like the Mormon view - those who go to heaven spend eternity in "everlasting burnings":)

Sounds as though they have one thing right. After all, we will be with God and God is a consuming Fire. Is He not?

Sincerely,

De Maria

And if you know that you are going to heaven, then you are going to hell, for anyone who knows that they are going to heaven is accursed.

What?? Where did this come from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

That is right Fred, and God told us in His word that we those who are saved are given assurance of salvation.

I have assurance of salvation.

Fred, you may want to talk to Scott - he appears to be aware that assurance of salvation is part of the gospel.

Scott seems to be a knowledgeable Catholic. Therefore I agree with him that we are assured of salvation if we persevere to th end.

In the same vein, I know that Fred believes he will go to heaven if he remains in God's grace.

We certainly do hope and are assured of salvation but we are not our judge, it is Christ who judges though our conscience be clear:
1 Corinthians 4 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.

The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants preach a general absolute assurance of salvation. But that contradicts Scripture:

Heb 10 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Then I wonder why you argue so about the word.

What is important is that through the gospel of Jesus Christ, we can have assurance of salvation, and we need not worry about losing our salvation.

I agree with what you've said. As long as you don't preach once saved always saved and absolute assurance of salvation.

I don't worry about losing my salvation as long as I do the will of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Sounds as though they have one thing right. After all, we will be with God and God is a consuming Fire. Is He not?

Did you ever take that verse out of context.

Deut 9:3-4
3 "Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
NKJV

So you expect to be in the consuming fire of God? I am sorry to hear that. I plan to be in heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Scott seems to be a knowledgeable Catholic. Therefore I agree with him that we are assured of salvation if we persevere to th end.

In the same vein, I know that Fred believes he will go to heaven if he remains in God's grace.

John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

God's grace or the grace of the Roman Catholic denomination?

Quote:

The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants preach a general absolute assurance of salvation. But that contradicts Scripture:

I am not a protestant, but apparently the protestants have it right.

Quote:

Heb 10 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

This refers to people who reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. They end up in everlasting burnings.

Rev 20:9-10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NKJV

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Did you ever take that verse out of context.

Deut 9:3-4
3 "Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
NKJV

So you expect to be in the consuming fire of God? I am sorry to hear that. I plan to be in heaven.

As I understand it, seraphims are an order of angels in closest proximity to God in heaven.

Seraphims literally means "burning ones" in the Hebrew (Sarap, 'to burn'). A word of the same spelling is used of snakes (e.g. Isaiah 30v6), misleading some to think them serpent-guardians. The word 'serapim' Isaiah uses has no definite article; it is a description not a title. Note also how their ministry to Isaiah involves 'burning'. [2]
Seraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And remember these words of Christ:
Matthew 22 30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Don't be scared. When we go to heaven we will be in God's fire but we won't be consumed:
Exodus 3 2 And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt.

It seems to me that Scripture is telling us that the Consuming Fire of God is Heaven.

Psalm 18 7 His going out is from the end of heaven, And his circuit even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide himself from his heat.

Exodus 24 17 And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like a burning fire upon the top of the mount, in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Matthew 3 11 I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Acts 2 1 And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

Isaias 6 6 And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Yessir! I can't wait to be touched by God's cleansing fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

As I understand it, seraphims are an order of angels in closest proximity to God in heaven.

Stay on topic - we are not discussing seraphims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Stay on topic - we are not discussing seraphims.

We're discussing how hot is heaven. If the angels in heaven are described as burning ones (i.e. Seraphims), then it must be pretty hot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

We're discussing how hot is heaven. If the angels in heaven are described as burning ones (i.e. Seraphims), then it must be pretty hot.

Stay on topic. The names of angels have nothing to do with whether heaven is a place of everlasting fire.

Oh my brain is beginning to hurt!!

Consuming fire is not literal it is figurative and what does it have to do with angels??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Stay on topic.

You brought up the topic of God's consuming fire. Go back and read the messages.

Quote:

The names of angels have nothing to do with whether heaven is a place of everlasting fire.

The names of angels are a description. The Seraphims are the burning ones because of their proximity to God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

oh my brain is beginning to hurt!!!

Consuming fire is not literal it is figurative and what does it have to do with angels???

The Seraphim are thus named because they are the burning ones. Since they are also the angels closest in proximity to God, I infer from their name that they are thus named because of their proximity to the Consuming Fire.

So if it is burning in hell so we want to avoid that then what is the difference of being in heaven to 'escape' the fire? We haven't escaped fire then have we?

What MAKES you think consuming fire is literal instead of figurative?

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

You brought up the topic of God's consuming fire. Go back and read the messages.

Actually, no. I mentioned the heresy of the Mormon teaching of heaven being "everlasting burnings" in response to one of saintjoan's messages. You then brought up the mention of God as a consuming fire, which refers to how He destroys those who are enemies of Him.

And yet you seem to think that is where you are going.