We should be so lucky. But I'm afraid the key word is "knowingly".Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
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We should be so lucky. But I'm afraid the key word is "knowingly".Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
Every one is an infidel, who disagrees with the stuff she spouts. Islamic radicals are like that too, hmmmm, I guess she is a christian radical.
Attachment 6213
Is it safe to come out now ? :).
I thank you one and all for the love and support shown. You all lifted me up. You truly did and I thank you.
( I hope no one minds my attempt at a little chuckle. I have a tendency to do that when things get difficult. Isn't that little guy too cute?)
All right, I admit, I've stayed out of this thread simply because of the conflict that I knew was inevitable... and judging by the rapidly growing pages on the Answer forum, I knew I wasn't wrong. But alas, here I am...
I read the first couple this morning, then skimmed the next few, then ultimately hit #9, and here I am.
I just have a question...
The OP asked "can a non-Christian do good in the sight of God? why or why not?", right?
Somehow this has veered off from the OP and tragically gone the way of "what is good" rather than "can they do it."
To the Christians on here (and I am one of your number), how can what's been going on here be classified as "good?"
"...whatsoever things are true, ...honest, ...just, ...pure, ...lovely, ...of a good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Phil 4:8
I think we've not answered the original question, but simply defined that man is man... he is capable of good or bad, no matter what his spiritual state may be.
"Good" without being tempered with grace can become sadly misunderstood.... and ultimately termed "bad."
Yes, I've seen those people and now understand what you mean. They do seem to be preaching out of anger rather than compassion for the 'infidels'. But I honestly don't think their mindset is too far removed from someone like skygem who stubbornly (and foolishly), thinks he is right, everyone else is wrong, and that's all there is to it. It is this type of closed minded, bigoted thinking that spawns the hate you see from those preachers you talk about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
Please forgive me, but why is it that you don't let your mind go there? Could it be because you understand all too well that this eternal torture chamber your god has set up for the rest of humanity is morally apprehensible? I think you SHOULD let your mind go there! You should FORCE yourself to really think about it logically. Only then can you realize the absurdity of such an arrogant belief. I apologize for calling it arrogant Allheart, but what other word describes such a self righteous and privileged belief that has only YOUR religion being exactly right and enjoying eternal bliss, while everyone else burns in hell for eternity?Quote:
I am sorry that I wasn't understanding your thoughts. I don't gladly accept what is in store for non-believers, I honestly don't even let my mind go there.
Hi Lob -Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I just will keep this brief as I am sometimes take things internally too deeply and it kills me to cause any upset and makes me so sad and sometimes overwhelms me and it seems the more I try to explain the worse I seem to be understood.
The reason my mind doesn't go there, is :
1) I am too imperfect... I have way too much to correct... I need to be more loving, caring, giving, kind, compassionate, understanding, unselfish... before I can even think looking over to my "neighbor" and in a way stand in judgement of them.
That is what I meant. I am to imperfect to dare take a peak at someone else and tell them there future. And I know some will Say... "God said......." Yes, he did and he was speaking to me a sinner. I am a sinner. Period.
That is what I meant. And lob I know you don't mean any harm at all I can tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianChick
HC - you are such a wise girl and all of what you said is so very true.
Allheart, please don't ever worry about upsetting me. I only ask that you be honest (with me, as well as yourself), in what you say, and I can never be upset at that. I still don't quite understand...Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
You say you need to be more loving, caring, kind, compassionate, understanding, and unselfish. Doesn't this demand that you think about all the eternally tortured souls?
If you haven't guessed it already, I used to be a Christian. It was exactly these types of problems/questions why I simply couldn't bring myself to believe anymore. I couldn't reconcile how a loving God could ever allow such an appalling fate for everyone else who didn't hold the same beliefs of my religion.
I couldn't accept many of the responses to this OP. Why a non-Christian couldn't do good in the sight of a loving compassionate God. It just didn't make any sense.
Lob - First, of course I believe, God is pleased when any of us do good, ( Including non-Christians)
2) Please, I am being honest. Some people may question my sincerity but in my heart I am being honest as I can possibly be. I know I may appear to be a scambled egg :). That's because I am. Meaning, sometimes a lot of people don't get me and I am usually odd girl out. Sometimes it is so lonely and I wonder why sometimes I think so different. My husband loves me very much, but gets very frustrated with my views and heart sometimes. He thinks I see good too much and gets very frustrated as he's still not sure where I came from :).
Anyway, to be very honest, I don't often think about eternal tortured souls. My mind may wonder there and do you mean when someone first tells me they do not believe in God, do I worry for them, yes I do and my heart is sad and I feel love for them and hope that they once again will feel God's love. Yes I do. But in no way do I feel superior to them. Feeling that way, I'm sorry to me is a sin.
See, it's not that my religion is superior to anyone. I think all religions are roads to God. I have said that many times.
Now I am Catholic, is what I believe and some of what I say here would they disagree with me... probably... some of it... but they would still love me :)
I was raised in the Catholic faith as well. I'm sorry for trying to pin you down, but I'm sooo confused!Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
Imagine in the basement of your church people were being hideously tortured. How could you attend mass at this church every Sunday with a smile on your face knowing what was happening below in the basement? You seem like a nice person and I'm betting your conscience wouldn't allow you to. So why can you not apply this same logic when it comes to heaven and hell? You can't possibly think it's morally right that over half the people who have ever lived will be tortured forever and ever until the end of time.
No I don't think you are pinning me down or doing it harshly. You actually are helping me sort through my own beleifs.
I think the reason that I don't hit the panic button when someone tells me they don't believe in God, is because, in my heart I know that God is a loving God and this person standing in front of me, who I do love as my brother or sister, will someday open their hearts to God.
It does make me sad that their life could be so much easier having God's love in it. Does that mean my life goes better because I believe. No, it means that having Gods' love during the difficult time carries me through time in and time out (when I remember to give it all to him)
I guess my belief is that Our Loving Father would never damn someone who is a good person but has yet to accept God in their hearts. I believe that they will before the pass on and if they don't I do believe in purgatory, where they will be given a chance to love and serve the Lord and they will be able to see things differently. That is my belief.
Grant you, the Catholic Church would not agree with me, my Mom would put me on indefinite time out and there are a couple of nuns heading my way with huge yardsticks:eek:
So who do I think will be thrown away from God? - Rapist, Murders, molesters who have not repented. Those that evil has penetrated them so much, the only thing that remains is evil.
No, I do not pick what to believe in the Catholic Church. I love my religion as it is what gives me the vision to see God. But I also realize, the Church consist of humans, who are fallable. So I pray on all things and give great thought to all things (when I think) and be sure in my heart that I am in line with God's Will.
Thank you for this disccussion - you are helping me find my way a little more. Truly.
Anyone who would be guided by something you said, should have their head examined. I have nothing against those with faith, but you take intolerance to a new level. You wear your ignorance on your sleeve as though it were something to be proud of.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
Yet, something puzzles me:
Not a bad signature. Why not heed it yourself?Quote:
God's Word is indeed *infallible*. It's man's mis-interpretation and re-interpretation of it that I am concerned about.
Actually, I thought I answered the question. Anyway, nice post HistorianChick :)Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianChick
No prob, I was just fishing for attention. Oops, was that 'bad?' :DQuote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by Kick277Jen
2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receieve the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kick277Jen
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those books, according to their works."
There are many other verses that say we will ALL, every one of us, will be judged based upon our works whether they are good or bad. Every one includes the saved and the unsaved. Since we will all be judged upon the good and the bad we did while we are living, it, in my mind, is very safe to say the unsaved will be judged upon the good they did as well. That would mean they can do good in God's eyes.
Actually , none of us are truly good. In the Bible it states that the only one who can be truly called good is God. We are not good enough , not Christians , or otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kick277Jen
We are all to do our best to follow Christ's example, but we will always fall short.
That is why Jesus died for us . He died to take our short comings (sins) upon himself , so that we could be forgiven and cleansed and live with him in Heaven when we pass away.
It is about being saved.
You are exactly right! Jesus was/is without sin, we are not. And it IS about being Saved. That should be the goal of every human being on this planet -- to be able to take care of their soul and spirit once they are gone from this physical world because the world of Spirit, in Heaven, is eternal and forever, unlike this one where your life is truly very short by comparison. If one does not look after their own soul to want only the very best for it, who else will care enough to help them? Truly, no one else, except Jesus! And it makes Him very happy when people will accept Him as their Lord and Savior, thereby, assuring their Salvation in the Afterlife.Quote:
Originally Posted by bagel sandwich
I agree our time on earth is very short, and as humans we can at least do our best to do what's right, for ourselves and others. Falling short, is no reason not to keep trying.
Of course when a man or woman does good in his or her own eyes it is good, but when God sees it is not good because no matter how many "good deeds" we do, the fact is that we were born in sin. But the thing is that he loved us even before we loved him. So while you continue to doubt and mock his followers he still loves you and longs for a relationship you.
I agree that our good deeds is no where near good enough to save ourselves. We most definitely need Jesus for that salvation. And yes, the Bible does say that none is good but God, but this does not imply that we cannot do good. We most definitely can do good... not only what we as imperfect humans consider as good, but what God sees as good.
He loved us even before we loved him. He knew us before we were born, so I can't understand why we were born in sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast
I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just trying to understand why you believe it is a fact, that we were born in sin.
Because if Christians aren't made to believe they are born wretched, worthless, and unworthy of heaven, it would put churches out of business, that's why!Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Mae
Seriously, I think it has to do with inherited sin from Adam & Eve. Are you of the opinion that humans are NOT born of sin? You'd be in the minority of Christians that I know. Unless I have you confused with someone else. You ARE a believer, right Donna?
OK donna I could definitely see how you could have a hard time believing or seeing that we are born in sin. Ti just basically boils down to what you believe. Since I believe in the bible, I believe that when adam ate the fruit that God specifically told him not to, this is when sin enter the world. Does that help?
I to believe that sin started with Adam, but why does that mean that a baby is born in sin? God said to Eve, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing," and to Adam, "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life."
lobrobster, Yes it is true, I do not believe that humans are born in sin. And yes, I am very much a believer. Jesus is the only way to heaven. I also believe that the Bible is the only true word of God, which makes it hard for me to believe that we are born in sin. Just wondering where you read this in God's word?
romans 5:12- the rest of the chapter. A good example of this is, its pretty crazy but my little sister who is only two, knows how to lie and not tell the truth. I mean no one had to teach her how to do it, she already has the nature of sin to do it
Does this mean that a baby will go to Hell if he dies in infancy?Quote:
Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast
I've never read the bible, but am in the process of searching for which one to buy and read (if you have any suggestions on which bible I should get, I'd be grateful). But for now, I'm being 'coached' on the bible and the ways of Christian belief. I'm trying to learn more about 'faith' in general. Someone whom I respect very much as being not only a good Christian, but also very knowledgeable about the bible, insists we are all born of sin. We all inherit the original sin of Adam & Eve. Do you interpret the bible differently Donna? Are you saying that we've already paid the price for original sin by toiling for our food and painful childbirth?Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Mae
I do not believe in god but I do good everyday or I like to think so so I bring my children up with manners and they are very loving.
My parents are foster carers and I ofter have there children thinking of fostering myself.
I have eldery neighbours who I often help with shopping etc.
And I do not drink or gamble I know I do good in my life nad do not need some god to tell me that.
Maybe we should see the other side of the question, Can a christian do bad? The answer still comes up yes! And unlike the originalquestion, there is plenty of proof of that.
As humans we have different ideas, and interpretations, and points of view. It seems this is a question for God, and speculating, and giving opinions, is a nice debate, but it's the God you believe in, that has the final say. Just my opinion. Being of no particular religion, and loyal to no bible, with all due respect to those that are, I could not follow any thing man has put forth, no matter where they say it comes from, I can try to be good, as I can be, today, here and now, and trust the God that I understand knows that. I also believe, just me, that segregating ones self, and cursing all other who do not agree, is wrong in the eyes of the Creator, as there is only one, God, and one race, human, and we should be all working together and sharing, and congregating, not fighting wars against each other, in the name of your God or mine. That's ludichrist, and entirely mans doing. So tolerance, respect, and love, is all we should be pontificating. Not cursing one another because of what book you read from, or what day you deem is holy. So close your minds to all, but your way, if you must, but it will be up to OUR maker to decide, whether your right or not, I choose to listen, and then decide, because that's what I choose to do with MY God given choice. Whatever your decision, I ain't mad atcha. I pray for you, just as you pray for me, seems that's a good thing. Isn't it?Quote:
Can a non-Christian truly do good in the sight of God? Why or why not?
Thank you 4 sharing your piece.
After all this web sites main purpose is so that we can learn from each other
Reading through many of the prior responses leads me to believe there are many who misunderstand the concept of Original Sin…Sin occurred first in the spirit realm before its introduction on earth. For unknown ages full harmony with God prevailed in the universe. Disruption came through a spirit creature referred to simply as the Resister, Adversary (Heb. Sa•tan´; Gr. Sa•ta•nas´; Job 1:6; Ro 16:20), the principal False Accuser or Slanderer (Gr. Di•a´bo•los) of God. (Heb 2:14; Re 12:9) Hence, the apostle John says: “He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning.”—1Jo 3:8.
As we know from reading Gods word the Bible Satan lied and tempted the free will God bestowed on Adam and Eve and they sinned…which means, Everlasting life for Adam, Eve and their descendents was revoked and death (Sin in this particular sense) was the wages of that sin. Death with old age and all that accompanies it was passed on to mankind.
Right and god never intended hell for humans only satan and his demons, but since man sinned we are cursed with it
First, I thought satan was once in the good graces of God? Also, exactly what was it about the temptation of eating an apple that was so sinful? Why couldn't God have waited at least until a murder took place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
If God never intended for humans to sin, why did He put a forbidden tree in the garden? Personally, I think it was a set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast
Entrapment. That's not nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
The common tradition as to the apple's being the forbidden fruit of Eden is without any Scriptural basis whatsoever.
Angels as well as Humans were given the gift of free-will; some people simply choose bad behavior over good.
That is exactly how I understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_crow
Satan wasn't an angel either.
Children are born innocent and if they die in infancy they are in Heaven no matter who their parents were.
Sin entered the world through one man, Adam, and death through sin. But through God's grace the gift of Jesus Christ, our sins can be washed away.
Ezekiel 18:20 Tells us the son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.
Matthew 18:1-7
The disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child and had him stand among them. And He said, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"
James 1:13-18
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown gives birth to death.
(When we let desires take over our lives, that's when sin is conceived, not in the womb or in heaven. Every good thing is from God, sin is from man.)
He chose to give us birth through the 'word of truth', that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all He created. We are the firstfruits, the very best of His creation. I can't believe that birth through the 'word of truth' could have sin.
Therefore I also could never believe that a baby or child would go to hell if they died. Their angel is always looking at God.
"This child is greatest in th kingdom of heaven."
lobrobster--Sorry to hear that you have never read the Bible. That's the only way to find the answers to the questions we have about God and life after our time on this earth is over. Please don't depend on anyone to tell you what you need to believe, that includes me also (we all need help understanding God's word, but we need to read it ourselves too).
There are too many different beliefs in this world, but there is only one God and one way to learn the truth. Read and study God's word.
You asked about Bibles. My favorite Bible is the King James Version, but for studying I also use the New International Version. The problem with the NIV is that they leave out some scriptures, but the one I have includes these omitted scriptures in footnotes.
talaniman--
I hope you don't believe that I am cursing anyone, because that is definitely not my intention. God says to teach humbly and with kindness. So if I have offended anyone, I am sorry.
I do believe that my job for God is to inform anyone I can, about our loving Savior, and hopefully that's all I am doing. I can only inform, God makes the increase.
Praying for anyone and everyone is a good thing.
I agree with you Donna Mae. I don't believe anyone is born with sins of anyone else. But because of the sin of Adam and Eve I believe we are born with a sinful nature. But I believe that an infant, child or mentally handicapped person still needs saving grace. They obviously don't have the ability to not only know they must except Jesus as their savior, but they don't understand it/comprehend it either. That being said though... I still believe it is by God's grace that they go to heaven. Meaning they need grace like the rest of us.
__________________________________________________ ________________________
As far as the tree of knowledge of good and evil goes... I can't stress enough for people to stop putting so much emphasis on the actual tree. People think of the sin as simply eating from the tree, "why is eating from a tree so bad, why would eating from a tree be a sin?" This is putting entirely too much emphasis on the tree.
The sin was disobeying God by means of eating from the tree.
Can a non-Christian do good?
.
Why not? What do you think makes you so special as Christian that only you as Christian can do good?
What about religious wars like the CRUSADES? Were they "GOOD"?
What about the Christian INQUISITION? Was that "GOOD"?
What about other historical religious persecutions by Christians? Was that "GOOD"?
Is the basis of your question not rather full of religious haughtiness, totally sidestepping the mountain of Christian wrongdoing?
I ask myself where I can do good. Not where or why others can't.
It seems to me you are on the wrong track!
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