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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Jews, definitely, though the existence of Jews For Jesus reinforces my point about God dealing with individual hearts.

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Jews for Jesus is a recently formed non-profit that has been thoroughly dismissed as Jewish by actual Jews and even by Israeli courts. With all due respect, I don't know what you mean by citing this organization as reinforcing your point about God dealing with individual hearts. By such reasoning, WICCA is about God dealing with individual hearts.

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I call it a stickier situation because ......... I know one view says Jesus really was the Son of God and savior

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Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God, never have believed that. Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet, a precursor to Muhammad. Please expand on your claim that "I know one view says Jesus really was the Son of God and savior."

Jews for Jesus has been around since 1973 and informally even before then. If being "Jewish" means the membership is overwhelmingly Jewish, then they are pretty Jewish. The idea is that they are Jews who accept Christ as the genuine Messiah. They would all say that God brought conviction concerning Christ to each one individually. They have quite a number of testimonies here.

Home - Jews for Jesus

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Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God, never have believed that,

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I think that's pretty much right.

The latest court case I'm aware of was very much a victory for Christians in Israel.

Messianic Jews in Israel Win Important Supreme Court Victory | CBN News

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Athos
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
Jews, definitely, though the existence of Jews For Jesus reinforces my point about God dealing with individual hearts.
Jews for Jesus is a recently formed non-profit that has been thoroughly dismissed as Jewish by actual Jews and even by Israeli courts.

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I cite them purely as an example of what have come to be called Messianic Jews. I don't know that anybody but themselves is qualified to judge their Jewishness, courts or otherwise, but I haven't looked at it that closely. If that name offends, then there are lots of Jews who have come to accept Jesus as their Messiah.

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Muslims do not believe Jesus is the son of God, never have believed that. Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet, a precursor to Muhammad. Please expand on your claim that "I know one view says Jesus really was the Son of God and savior."

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I wish I could remember. It was on a board somewhere, but I couldn't tell you where or when now. It stayed with me because it was a bit of a shock.

As happens on these boards, we're straying far from the topic which is -- Must one believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved? I gave it a definite NO, belief in Jesus as God is NOT necessary. Now we're into Israeli courts (my fault) deciding tax-exempt issues for Jews for Jesus. Let me try to do this point by point.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Jews for Jesus has been around since 1973 and informally even before then.

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Agreed. That's what I meant when I said "recent". I.e., not a few thousand years.

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If being "Jewish" means the membership is overwhelmingly Jewish, then they are pretty Jewish.

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On this one, I disagree. That's not what being "Jewish" means in the sense we're discussing here. Simply having Jewish members does not automatically mean an organization is Jewish. The movie studio MGM was formed by Jews but no one ever said or now says MGM is or was a Jewish organization (in the sense we mean here). My softball team in the Bronx was overwhelmingly Jewish, (8 were Jews, 2 were Christians - we played with a "short"-center-fielder to account for 10 on a side with "short" referring to field position, not height) but nobody thought we were a Jewish softball team

To be a "Jewish" organization, it must have a specific Jewish raison d'etre to be so. Even then, its "Jewishness" may be debatable. For example, say an organization is formed that requires members to be Jews and its purpose is to destroy Israel on behalf of Iran. Sound way out there? Sure. But not too far from Jews For Jesus whose purpose is believing Jesus is the Christian Messiah which is diametrically opposed to Jewish theology.

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The idea is that they are Jews who accept Christ as the genuine Messiah.

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If that were all there is to it, they might be acceptable as an offshoot of mainstream Jewish theology, but that is not all. They also believe in the Holy Trinity as described by Christians and that Jesus is God. To the Jews, the genuine Messiah was not God. The Messiah was to lead the Jewish nation in several ways, but never as God.

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They would all say that God brought conviction concerning Christ to each one individually.

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Human beings say all sorts of things. How do you know what "all of them would say". Some Christians say snakes can talk. Are we all to believe that because they say it?

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They have quite a number of testimonies here.

Home - Jews for Jesus

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Testimonies are a dime-a-dozen in every religion.

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The latest court case I'm aware of was very much a victory for Christians in Israel.

Messianic Jews in Israel Win Important Supreme Court Victory | CBN News

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Your link refers to Messianic Jews winning a tax case. Are you now saying Messianic Jews are Christians?

It's good to see that you now seem to believe that Muslims do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. Thank you.

Getting back to the topic. Are you now able to declare that salvation does not depend on believing Jesus is God? Or is it still up in the air for you? Either way is OK with me. I just want to bring the discussion to a close now that all parties have had their say.

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To be a "Jewish" organization, it must have a specific Jewish raison d'etre to be so. Even then, its "Jewishness" may be debatable. For example, say an organization is formed that requires members to be Jews and its purpose is to destroy Israel on behalf of Iran. Sound way out there? Sure. But not too far from Jews For Jesus whose purpose is believing Jesus is the Christian Messiah which is diametrically opposed to Jewish theology.

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To be Jewish is to claim to be a descendant of the original Jewish population of Israel. That being the case, Jews for Jesus are as Jewish as any other Jewish organization. Many Jews are strictly secular and have no real interest in Jewish theology.

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Human beings say all sorts of things. How do you know what "all of them would say". Some Christians say snakes can talk. Are we all to believe that because they say it?

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Listen to their testimonies. See for yourself. I've never met a Christian who says snakes can talk.

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Your link refers to Messianic Jews winning a tax case. Are you now saying Messianic Jews are Christians?

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Yes. They would as well. Practically all of the early Christians were Jews. It's not a startling suggestion. One can legitimately be both.

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It's good to see that you now seem to believe that Muslims do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. Thank you.

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Never believed otherwise.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Never believed otherwise.

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I thought I was replying to dwashbur. I'll have to be more careful in the future.

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I thought I was replying to dwashbur. I'll have to be more careful in the future.

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I figured that was the case when you asked about the Muslim comment.

I would suggest care. Wouldn't want to have your thinking challenged in any serious way.

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I thought I was replying to dwashbur. I'll have to be more careful in the future.

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The structure of posts on this board can get confusing, no doubt about that.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

The structure of posts on this board can get confusing, no doubt about that.

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Except for this one time, I'm usually ok with the structure. What I LOVE about this board is the ability to proofread one's reply in the preview section which allows corrections, edits, and basically an improved post.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Wouldn't want to have your thinking challenged in any serious way.

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I welcome challenges to my thinking, always have, serious or not serious. It is YOUR thinking I usually ignore, for the many reasons I have previously given you.

I'm sure you will reply, and I am just as sure I will continue to ignore you like others here have done. The life of a troll is lonely.

Can’t beat ‘em, ignore em.

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Athos
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
The structure of posts on this board can get confusing, no doubt about that.
Except for this one time, I'm usually ok with the structure. What I LOVE about this board is the ability to proofread one's reply in the preview section which allows corrections, edits, and basically an improved post.

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The part I really don't like is when I go to make a separate post and it automatically tacks it onto the end of a previous one. I have yet to figure out how to get it to stop doing that.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

The part I really don't like is when I go to make a separate post and it automatically tacks it onto the end of a previous one. I have yet to figure out how to get it to stop doing that.

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Another small disagreement (smile). I like that feature - appeals to my sense of efficiency. The thing I dislike the most is the touchy moderation which is sometimes too quick on the trigger to close a thread.

Even worse is the moderator who arbitrarily deleted comments of mine because he personally did not like what I posted. My post was perfectly fine, mind you, he just didn't like it and gave that as his reason. This happened a long time ago and when I complained to "management", the person that I complained to was shocked and said he would look into right away and get back to me. He never got back to me.

The two moderators in question are still here, one still moderating and the other lurking, presumably.

The owner has always been excellent and helpful.

Getting back to the original question, my mind consistently comes back to Cornelius and his family. Peter didn't even get a chance to wrap up his sermon and give an invitation and the Spirit came on them, indicating that they were believers, they trusted Jesus.
The question then becomes, WHAT did they believe? What did their hearts latch onto that changed their lives? The crux of Peter's message seems to have usually been "God raised Jesus from the dead, and trusting in him brings forgiveness of your sins and the Holy Spirit." Nothing about Jesus being God, in fact Peter never seemed to address the question.
So I would have to say, does someone have to believe Jesus is God to be saved? No. Do they need to believe in his resurrection to be saved? Yes. What about people before his resurrection? I come back to the thief on the cross and the tax collector in the temple. God, be merciful to me, remember me when you come into your kingdom. On the other side we have the Sanhedrin, who spread a false rumor that the disciples stole the body. That's deliberate rejection, so they aren't saved.
Back to you, my friend.

Meanwhile, love one another.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

So I would have to say, does someone have to believe Jesus is God to be saved? No.

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I agree. My reasons are not the same as yours, but agreement nonetheless.

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Do they need to believe in his resurrection to be saved? Yes.

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Disagree. Isn't that essentially the same question, asked in a different way?

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What about people before his resurrection? I come back to the thief on the cross and the tax collector in the temple. God, be merciful to me, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

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And those a thousand years before Jesus? Ten thousand years? Those, post Jesus, who never heard of him? Or, having heard, did not believe? Like all the good Hindus, Jews, Muslims over the years?

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On the other side we have the Sanhedrin, who spread a false rumor that the disciples stole the body.

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How do we know they thought the rumor was false? Could they have believed it? Anyway, it's pretty much irrelevant re the topic.

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That's deliberate rejection

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Rejection vs. deliberate rejection. I'm not sure what non-deliberate rejection may be. Isn't all rejection deliberate?

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so they aren't saved.

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A clarification needed: does "aren't saved" therefore mean that they spend eternity in a fiery torture chamber created by an all-loving God? We're back to the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Athos

A clarification needed: does "aren't saved" therefore mean that they spend eternity in a fiery torture chamber created by an all-loving God? We're back to the beginning.

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What about Purgatory, offering rethinking of all this and a second chance?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What about Purgatory, offering rethinking of all this and a second chance?

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Purgatory (a kind of Hindu karma) makes a lot more sense than eternal hell. That God would be a "tough love" God, like a loving Father disciplining his children.

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Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
A clarification needed: does "aren't saved" therefore mean that they spend eternity in a fiery torture chamber created by an all-loving God? We're back to the beginning.
What about Purgatory, offering rethinking of all this and a second chance?

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I have never seen any biblical evidence for such a place. Historically, it looks to me like purgatory is a theological construct invented to resolve certain knotty questions.

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Athos
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
So I would have to say, does someone have to believe Jesus is God to be saved? No.
I agree. My reasons are not the same as yours, but agreement nonetheless.

Do they need to believe in his resurrection to be saved? Yes.
Disagree. Isn't that essentially the same question, asked in a different way?

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Not necessarily. See Arianism.

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On the other side we have the Sanhedrin, who spread a false rumor that the disciples stole the body.
How do we know they thought the rumor was false? Could they have believed it? Anyway, it's pretty much irrelevant re the topic.

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They said it was. They paid the guards to say it, when under ordinary circumstances the guards would have been executed for dereliction.
It's an example of deliberate knowing rejection. They knew. They chose to reject.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

I have never seen any biblical evidence for such a place. Historically, it looks to me like purgatory is a theological construct invented to resolve certain knotty questions.

Not necessarily. See Arianism.

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OK with Arianism and Purgatory and Sanhedrin - we're drifting again away from the topic.

You said that one does NOT have to believe Jesus is God in order to be saved (post # 53). You then followed that with saying one DOES have to believe in the resurrection to be saved.

Same questions - those who lived before and after the Resurrection, those who never heard of the resurrection, those who heard of the resurrection and have not believed by rejecting it both deliberately and non-deliberately - are these people saved or not saved?

The "not saved" answer means going to hell for eternal torture even though they may have lived good lives.