Ask Me Help Desk - Greeks and Jesus

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We know that He came for the lost house of Israel. Mathew 15:24 Could He have been implying he had nothing to talk to them about until AFTER his death, burial and resurrection? Because after Jesus is informed that there were Greeks who wanted to meet with him in verse 24 He goes on to say unless a corn of wheat falls into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it brings forth much fruit. Gentiles were grafted in after his resurrection. Just a thought. Am I way off??????

Interesting! We know he sort of fudged that principle a couple of times for individuals - the Roman centurion and the Canaanite woman - but that may have been because they already believed, or had seen enough to be able to believe. These guys seem to have been more curiosity seekers, but it's impossible to tell from what little we have. I like this idea.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Interesting! We know he sort of fudged that principle a couple of times for individuals - the Roman centurion and the Canaanite woman - but that may have been because they already believed, or had seen enough to be able to believe. These guys seem to have been more curiosity seekers, but it's impossible to tell from what little we have. I like this idea.

Is is possible that believers tend to ascribe meaning to every word written down by the authors of the Gospels as though every jot and tittle had profound meaning?

Maybe Jesus was just having a conversation with the centurion and the Canaanite woman with the possibility of his fudging a principle the farthest thing from his mind. Remember what Jesus said about the "principle" of the sabbath.

I understand how the Bible can lend itself to many, many ideas and interpretations, and I understand how fascinating such an exercise can be ( and fruitful), but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

No offense.

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Maybe Jesus was just having a conversation with the centurion and the Canaanite woman with the possibility of his fudging a principle the farthest thing from his mind. Remember what Jesus said about the "principle" of the sabbath.

Not sure I follow. Can you expand a bit?

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Not sure I follow. Can you expand a bit?

I'll try.

Your comment about knowing that Jesus "fudged that principle a couple of times for individuals" was offered in response to ClassyT's explanation on the passage in Matthew re "he came for the lost house of Israel". You found her comment "interesting".

In my comment, I thought that Jesus talking to the centurion and the Canaanite woman was not, as you described, a "fudging of principle". Rather I thought it was simply something Jesus said talking to those individuals without reference to Matthew's "lost house of Israel". No fudging implied or otherwise.

I added the sabbath reference since it is somewhat similar to Jesus' attitude to certain "principles". The principle (rule/regulation/belief) that the sabbath was intrinsically sacred on its own was debunked by Jesus when he said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". Not a perfect analogy - what analogy ever is - but it contains the idea of a principle not always sacrosanct.

Another thought, which I did not raise for obvious reasons as opening up a can of worms, is that perhaps the confusion arises from the possibility that the part about the Greeks and what immediately followed was not originally connected. The Gospel of Matthew copy that is the earliest we have is about 10-15 generations after the events described - more than enough time for an error in copying which is why I believe that sometimes meaning is forced into Bible passages that was never intended to be there. Especially when it requires jumping through hoops to extract a meaning not there.

Dave,

In regards to him fudging the principle I guess I agree with you. These two individuals were gentiles but in BOTH instances the Lord was moved by their faith. In fact, these are the only two in the gospels where Jesus says they have great faith. I find that amazing.

Hi T,
Agreed. In fact, he told the people the Roman soldier had more faith than any of them. So I wonder: when he said he came for the lost sheep of Israel, maybe he didn't mean it as a hard-and-fast rule but more of a principle with very flexible edges? And when he said what he did to the Canaanite woman, basically calling her a stray dog, I wonder if he was just testing her a little?
We have so little text, it's sometimes frustrating trying to sort out his mindset.

Perhaps his thought was that He, being sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, would not pursue contact with non-Jews in the same manner He did with Jews, and yet was still prepared to minister to them as the opportunities arose such as with the great ministry he experienced in the town of Sychar.

Dave..... We SOO do have little text. AND yet....I'm sure it's for a reason. Perhaps for discussions like this? ( a personal note: hope all is well with you and your family)

jilisenbe:

Exactly! With the exceptions who desperately sought him out.

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Exactly! With the exceptions who desperately sought him out.

Nice to meet you, CT.

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Who were these Greeks?

"Among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks" that is Greek speakers, that is gentiles non-Jews. Kind of an umbrella term for gentiles because Greek language and culture dominated the world outside Juda. Something like internationals, and we don't know where they were from- maybe they were from the Decapolis gentile towns just to the northeast of Galilee. But as gentiles, they know they can't just walk up to Jesus, and meet him. Perhaps they know he used to say; he'd been sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

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why these Greeks are even mentioned.

Verse 21," they came to Philip, who is from Bethsaida in Galilee which is a Hellenized, a Greekish City close to the border. They recognized in him a sort of Greekish kind of Jew and they say; sir we wish to see Jesus, and Philip knows that this is a tricky request from gentiles. So he went and told Andrew who is also from Bethsaida that Greekish town or city and perhaps rather nervously they go and told Jesus. It's a strange little incident but it's deeply symbolic, it's a little bit like the Magi at the beginning of Matthew's gospel. These representatives of the rest of the world- the Pharisees say the world has gone after him, and these representative, outsiders request to see him. So we join the story when the Lord Jesus stands on the verge of worldwide success. It's very upbeat apart from the puzzling donkey as he rides into Jerusalem, it's all victory and acclimation and success and worldwide influence opening up...Jesus here are some internationals here is an opportunity to open up worldwide ministry- Jesus triumph ministries intergalactic, Jesus the power pastor leading the power team, that's what we're waiting for at this point, Jesus the one who can raise the Dead. And what we're about to hear is a great significance, when we are praised, because the Lord Jesus speaks not of success but of sacrifice and the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, on which we focus first is necessary and costly and fruitful. First, it is necessary- versus 24 to 26 verse 23 "Jesus answered them," and it's a strange answer. We want to see Jesus and on the face of it the answer that Jesus gives is not an answer at all, it appears to be completely irrelevant to the question. "we want to see Jesus"- "And Jesus answered them, the hour has come." The hour that is not yet come in chapter 4 of the wedding, and my hour has not yet come, the hour that had not yet come in chapter 7 his hour not yet come and they wanted to arrest him, the hour that has not yet come in chapter 8 as he teaches in the Temple. Now the hour has come, for the son of man to be glorified to be lifted up like the suffering servant of the Lord. Isaiah 52 and 53 raised and lifted up and highly exalted glorified to die on the cross. How strange, at just the moment when the worldwide ministries opening up for him, surrounded by a cheering crowd, singing Psalms, waving palm branches...is approached by these internationals, the Pharisees exasperated that the world is going after him. How strange to say now it is time to die.

Much more to this, that I'd like to say...If it speaks to you at all(?). I'm tired and out of time.

("We want to see Jesus"-you can't see Jesus...you'll have to go to the cross if you want to see Jesus)...<-Initially this was not my intended response (wanting to go much further, with the seed and all)...it was cut short (lack of time), but it works for me.

It seems I have done it again, I read the first page in this thread and already posted my reply. Wasn't able to read the second page, sorry.

I was reading in 2 Corinthians 4- I thought how well the passage fits with John 12:20-36...2 corinthians 4- For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ. 6 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. What catches my eye is John Jacobs and the power team. There's a picture of these seven men who clearly have a lot of steroids and they built up these big muscles, devastating huge blocks of ice, massive slabs of concrete, and shredding thick telephone books with their bare hands. The extraordinary ministry of the power team just has to be seen to be believed. These world-class athletes use phenomenal feats of strength, power and speed to boldly proclaim the omnipotence of Jesus Christ, and of course, we laugh at that, it's easy to mock that kind of nonsense but there is something in all of us that wants to be known as the power team or the power pastor. In John's gospel, ' truly truly I say to you'- a very simple familiar agricultural picture unless a grain of wheat falls into the Earth and dies it remains alone. if you have a seed on a plate for a long time- you can sing to it, you can speak to it, you can pray about it you can do what you like. You put a grain of wheat on a plate and it will just be one grain of wheat, you can eat it but that's all it's going to be that's it, it's a very simple image. If it's going to be anything more than that it needs to fall into the ground and die. And the third primary meaning must be for the Lord Jesus himself, what the Lord Jesus implies of his own ministry is so long as I walk around doing miracles and such that nobody's ever done before as long as I teach, such that no human being has ever talked before no matter how wonderful my teaching no matter how astonishing, powerful my miracles I will remain alone. I may be surrounded by crowds of admirers there may be a fan club, but at the deepest level I will be alone. And its an extraordinary thought isn't it...that if the ministry of the Lord Jesus had ended thereafter the razing of Lazarus his influence would have been superficial. His ministry would have been a failure nobody would be changed inside, there would be no forgiveness of sins, but if it died- it goes down into the darkness of the earth if it's buried well then it germinates and it bears much fruit. A simple picture everybody can understand, the picture that is true for Jesus the Lord. Jesus will only win the world if he first dies. We want to see Jesus they say and you cannot see Jesus, the face of the crucified Christ as he dies then you will see him.

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Originally Posted by waltero

there is something in all of us that wants to be known as the power team

Hardly!

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In John's gospel, ' truly truly I say to you'- a very simple familiar agricultural picture unless a grain of wheat falls into the Earth and dies it remains alone.

If it's going to be anything more than that it needs to fall into the ground and die.

If John said that, he wasn't much of a farmer. A seed doesn’t die when it's planted and then begins to grow into a plant. Quite the opposite! a seed is full of the potential of life (and continues to be so) as it becomes a plant! The process is called germination.

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John 12:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much

I'll leave you to your own understanding.

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2 Corinthians 4-7: Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

essence being, that we don't really wish to be simple "jars of clay." There is something in all of us that wants to be known as the power team (Maybe only Disciples and Pastors). I wanted to talk more about 2 Corinthians 4, regarding those of us (even Jesus) who are considered jars of Clay., Wasn't able to elaborate as much as I would have liked.

What spirit-filled Christian wouldn't want their ministry (in fact their lives) to reach the ends of the Globe? What is their purpose for wanting such a ministry(?)

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There is something in all of us that wants to be known as the power team

I want to see him so clearly and so powerfully that I am changed from one degree of glory to another into his image so that I can show him to others more compellingly.

Jesus is saying; My pathway (I think he would rather have remained a simple Jar of clay) to glory is through death, as will be to all who want to see me.

I have a good picture of what this verse means. I was only trying to explain my understanding. In the hope that others gain a better understanding of the passage. As you know I'm illiterate. many grammatical errors and it takes me much too long when trying to articulate.

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Originally Posted by waltero

I'll leave you to your own understanding.

I was raised with farms all around me and have no clue what you mean.

So what we have here;

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Jesus Hits the World stage.

Now the crowd that was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word. 18- Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign, went out to meet him. 19- So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!”

verse 19- the Pharisees plotting against him since chapter 5 of John's gospel and they say to one another you see that you're gaining nothing it's pointless all our plots all our machinations all our power the world has gone after him the world has gone after this Jesus who can raise the dead, It's a tremendous power, what can we possibly do against this man who can raise the dead...I imagine you might have thought that they were exaggerating when they said the world has gone off after him, after all the crowds that they watched were, for the most part, Jewish crowds not the whole world, but even as they speak verse 20 their words acquire a prophetic character, and begin to be fulfilled now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks that is Greek speakers that is gentiles non-Jews

Jesus Predicts His Death; The Greeks (Much the same as the Magi) showed up. (struck with the turmoil of Death) Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Like the tent that Paul uses elsewhere in 2 Corinthians, and in his days on Earth the Lord Jesus was a frail fully human mortal human being. His fully divine nature as the eternal Son of God did not in any way weaken or compromise the full frailty and mortality of his human nature, any more than his fully human nature compromised the fullness of his deity, and the precious and the trials and the temptations that affected Jesus were real precious and genuine trials and terribly pressing temptations, there was no play-acting as if Jesus were God pretending to live like us.

Very truly I tell you unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed(alone). But if it dies, it produces many seeds. What the Lord Jesus implies, of his own ministry is so long as I walk around doing miracles and such, that nobody's ever done before, as long as I teach such that no human being has ever taught before, no matter how wonderful my teaching no matter how astonishing, powerful my miracles I will remain alone. I may be surrounded by crowds of admirers there may be a fan club but at the deepest level I will be alone and its extraordinary thought isn't it, that if the ministry of the Lord Jesus had ended there, after the razing of Lazarus his influence would have been superficial. His ministry would have been a failure nobody would be changed inside, there would be no forgiveness of sins.

But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. [For those who love this life (World), they will simply die, alone (produce no seed). Those who live for Jesus will produce many seeds (fruit) but if it dies, it goes down into the darkness of the earth, if it's buried well then it germinates and it bears much fruit at a very very simple picture. Everybody can understand the picture that is true for Jesus. The Lord Jesus will only win the world if he first dies. Now it is time to die, we want to see Jesus they say and you cannot see Jesus the face of the crucified Christ, as he dies then you will see him.

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I was raised with farms all around me and have no clue what you mean.

I was raised with many Horses all around me (including my backyard) and I still don't know how to ride a horse. A person can grow up around Bible-believing Christians and still miss salvation. Those of us that are in Christ Jesus, must give our lives (die). It's costly but it will be fruitful.

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If it's going to be anything more than that it needs to fall into the ground and die.
A seed doesn’t die when it's planted and then begins to grow into a plant.

A seed will die once it is planted. Hopefully not before it bears fruit, producing many more seeds (applicable to Christians only). Those in Christ Jesus die to self while growing in Jesus. God planted his seed in us, if I may. So it turns out we all face death, we're gonna die. Doesn't matter how long you sit on that plate (holding on to life, for as long as you can), alone. We all end up in the ground sooner or later. You do understand once you are in the ground you are dead, be seed or flesh? So you can choose to be buried with Jesus, or not. Either way, it is death. But...those who choose Jesus will be raised with him also.

The thingy about the seed is; Don't be that seed that chooses not to be planted. Don't be afeared of death, death is inevitable. Take your seed and plant it face down at the cross of Jesus.
@WG; Sorry, that's the best I can do. If you need further explanation please do not refer to me. Your buddy should be able to explain it more to your liking.

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Originally Posted by waltero

@WG; Sorry, that's the best I can do. If you need further explanation please do not refer to me. Your buddy should be able to explain it more to your liking.

Suggestion: Please keep your comments and answers shorter and on target. Watch your punctuation. You tend to ramble and be very wordy, meanwhile losing your frustrated reader who tries hard to pull out a message for himself. Short, meaty sentences can be very effective. (And, btw, Jesus has always been in my life. He is my best friend. He and I carry on conversations all day, every day.)

Hang in there, Walter. You can be a bit long winded, but you do have a regard for the truth, and you don't attempt to profess a belief in the Bible while denying it with your comments. For that you are to be commended.

JL, what does it mean to "profess a belief in the Bible"?

To believe the Bible to be God’s word.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

To believe the Bible to be God’s word.

Which version?