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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

If you would simply continue to read the John passage, Jesus elaborates on John 3:16 by saying, "He who believes in Him is not condemned. But he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

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Does John 3:18 mean unbelievers go to hell?

Absolutely not!

Here is a link for those of you read such things - it's an excellent explanation why conservative Christians misread John 3:18 (and verses before and after). Too long to post it here and too long to condense it to post. If there are still some of you who are wondering about this very un-Christ-like notion, this link will be very helpful.


https://leewoof.org/2017/12/08/does-...ns-go-to-hell/


You ask what I believe the "outcome for unbelievers" will be. Other things are more important. For you, love your neighbor and the rest will take care of itself. "Perish" has been explained and defined several times now.

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You ask what I believe the "outcome for unbelievers" will be.

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Hmmm. You still do not have the courage to answer that question. I could ask another. If unbelievers do not go to hell, then who does?

John 3:18 does mean, without question, that unbelievers will be judged, found guilty, and condemned. There is no other sensible way to see it, so long as "condemned" means what it has meant for centuries. Now you can argue as to what they will be condemned to. Revelation 20 answers that question.

Might add that the 3:18 verse does not simply say unbelievers will be condemned, but that they already stand condemned. It's the same idea of 3:16 that unbelievers are not simply going to perish, but are perishing even now. That is their current state, and it is what Jesus came to rescue us from. Thus the old hymn titled "Rescue the Perishing".

I did read your link. Talk about a rambling discourse! He lost me very early on with this statement: "These “Christians” have strayed very far from Jesus Christ. Instead of showing love and compassion to all different types of people, healing the sick and serving the poor and needy, these “Christians” consider themselves better than everyone else." Talk about judgemental! How would he know what "These Christians" do? Does he know them? I do know many of them, and his conclusion of what we do is completely wrong.

Your author is preaching a doctrine of salvation by good works. That is plainly denied by many passages in the New Testament. For instance, the imagery Jesus used in the John 3 passage was of the bronze serpent in the days of Moses, and how anyone bitten by a serpent could be saved by the simple and faith-filled act of looking to the serpent. "14Just as Moses lifted the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life." He does not say that everyone who goes out and lives a "good life" will have eternal life, but rather those who look with faith (believes in) to Him. Your article arrived at completely the wrong conclusion.

Isaiah makes the same case when he states, "Look unto me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other."

Romans 3 is very clear on the topic. "For by works of the law no human being^c will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

So now it seems to me that you must believe your author or believe the Apostle Paul.

The Bible as our source of truth opposed to cultural beliefs".


That's just it, you're to judge for yourself. I'm not sure what truth a person would find in ancient "cultural beliefs", much less understanding them.

Even if we understood their way of thinking, we are so inundated with western thought that it takes a major paradigm shift to adjust our way of thinking to theirs.

That's why everything is going to pass away...all is going to die.
In so dying we (those in Christ Jesus, Lord and Savior) are separated from this world.
Those who love the world more than life will simply pass away...away from Gods presence. Being separated from God might be hell!

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind

1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world.

Luke 12:23

For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

The Hebrews were called out separated from all other nations, Special to God and so totally tied to the evolution of life and religious culture.
Cultural beliefs begin with God and ends 'in' Jesus.

Welcome aboard, Waltero. Always good to have another person to engage in our spirited discussions.

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That's just it, you're to judge for yourself. I'm not sure what truth a person would find in ancient "cultural beliefs", much less understanding them.Even if we understood their way of thinking, we are so inundated with western thought that it takes a major paradigm shift to adjust our way of thinking to theirs.

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I'm not following your logic. You say that we cannot find truth in such an ancient document as the Bible, but then you quote the Bible to support your belief. You can't have it both ways. If the Bible cannot be understood, then why wouldn't we simply throw it away?

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Those who love the world more than life will simply pass away...away from Gods presence.

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Where would we find a place where God is not present? In Psalm 139 we read, "7Where can I go to escape Your Spirit?Where can I flee from Your presence?8If I ascend to the heavens, You are there;if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.9If I rise on the wings of the dawn,if I settle by the farthest sea,10even there Your hand will guide me;Your right hand will hold me fast.11If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me,and the light become night around me”—12even the darkness is not dark to You,but the night shines like the day,for darkness is as light to You."

Hello jlisenbe, thanks for the warm welcome.

I am dyslexic combined with trying to read all the threads before I respond, I often get it wrong.


1) My mistake.
I was reading it as Bible vs Cultural Beliefs... which one should we choose as truth.


2) Who is it that loves "this world" more than life (aka. Jesus)... I was referring to unbelievers.

Right now there is a separation of God and man, we know what that feels like.
I don't think we are capable of understanding what it means to be without GOD...being outside the presence of GOD.

I understand it as just believing in Jesus, as the truth and the life. The way I understand it is I am not required to do anything, nothing, other than believe. The rest will follow...so I'm told.
Simply Believe in a man named JESUS, that is above all other names...what's so hard (other than it goes against human nature) about that?

Believe in Jesus and you shall be Saved from Death and will have eternal life...a person need do anything more than that. In fact it is said you can't do anything more than that! Just believe ;-)

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I understand it as just believing in Jesus, as the truth and the life. The way I understand it is I am not required to do anything, nothing, other than believe. The rest will follow...so I'm told.
Simply Believe in a man named JESUS, that is above all other names...what's so hard (other than it goes against human nature) about that?

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Well said. I would only add that it is a belief that matters and that will affect our behavior in the same way that a belief in gravity will keep us from jumping off a tall building.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I did read your link. Talk about a rambling discourse! He lost me very early on with this statement: "These “Christians” have strayed very far from Jesus Christ. Instead of showing love and compassion to all different types of people, healing the sick and serving the poor and needy, these “Christians” consider themselves better than everyone else." Talk about judgemental! How would he know what "These Christians" do? Does he know them? I do know many of them, and his conclusion of what we do is completely wrong.

Your author is preaching a doctrine of salvation by good works. That is plainly denied by many passages in the New Testament. For instance, the imagery Jesus used in the John 3 passage was of the bronze serpent in the days of Moses, and how anyone bitten by a serpent could be saved by the simple and faith-filled act of looking to the serpent. "14Just as Moses lifted the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life." He does not say that everyone who goes out and lives a "good life" will have eternal life, but rather those who look with faith (believes in) to Him. Your article arrived at completely the wrong conclusion.

Isaiah makes the same case when he states, "Look unto me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other."

Romans 3 is very clear on the topic. "For by works of the law no human being^c will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

So now it seems to me that you must believe your author or believe the Apostle Paul.

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The discourse is rambling only to those who refuse to believe it.

The rest of your reply has nothing to do with the topic under discussion which is your false statement that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment.

It is NOT about salvation. It is NOT about good works. It is NOT about Moses and bronze serpents. All of these are straw-man arguments. How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in?

Romans, Isaiah, the Prophets - not a single reference of yours deals with the subject.

There's a limit to my patience. If you can't use words according to their accepted meaning, further discussion seems pointless.

Jesus Christ is NOT a monster.

Jesus saves... And all I know is that I don't want to be standing in the white throne of judgment... eternal damnation or not.

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It is NOT about salvation. It is NOT about good works. It is NOT about Moses and bronze serpents. All of these are straw-man arguments. How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in?

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Those were in response to the article you linked to. If you did not want to discuss the article, why did you link to it?

You don't want to accept the clear testimony of Revelation 20, so I don't know what else to tell you. As Waltero stated, I don't want to be standing before the throne on that day without a saving knowledge of Jesus. Athos, do you have that saving knowledge? Is you faith in Christ?

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Originally Posted by waltero

Jesus saves... And all I know is that I don't want to be standing in the white throne of judgment... eternal damnation or not.

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Walter - please see the first post for what this thread is about. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Those were in response to the article you linked to. If you did not want to discuss the article, why did you link to it?

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The title of the article in the link is "Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell?" It directly addresses the question.

You say that you "don't want to be standing before the throne on that day without a saving knowledge of Jesus". That's all well and good, but IT IS NOT THE TOPIC UNDER DISCUSSION!!!!!

I really shouldn't waste any more time with you.

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The title of the article in the link is "Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell?" It directly addresses the question.

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If you read the article, and I assume you did, you know it was about a great deal more than its title would have indicated. But again, if you will trouble yourself to read Rev. 20, which I suppose you have not done, you will have the answer to your question.

And I would ask you again. Is your faith in Christ, or is your faith in your goodness and good works?

@Athose.

QUOTE:

Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?

AND:
"If you believe this saying without providing proof, please explain why you believe it. Thank you".

You set up yourself some Guidelines that must be included in said quote?

Remember, no one will go to Hell because of their sins. We're all sinners. The only people who will be cast into hell will be those who refuse to accept the only remedy God provided for their sins, the shed blood of his son, Jesus.

Luke 16:23
"in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgement;

2 Thessolonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the Glory of his power,

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

Mark 9:47-48
"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED


Matthew 18:8
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Revelations 20:13-5
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Revelations 21-8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelations 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm not sure if these follow the guidelines you have set.
One thing is sure, the Bible tells all. It is the living word...and the word became Flesh.
You asked why I might believe.
All is death, we are all doomed to perish. Christ Jesus is all that lives. If a soul is found outside the body of Jesus, it is in utter darkness, cast away from the living God. You might think of it as being permanently separated from "the living" God...our souls are so far-separated from God, cast into utter Darkness. You really Don't need to go any further than being separated from God, that would be hellish enough for me...never mind the fire and Brimstone aka hell.

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Originally Posted by waltero

I'm not sure if these follow the guidelines you have set.

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No they don't, but thank you for trying. Each misses at least one of the requirements to satisfy the proposition "Unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment".

Since you came late to the discussion, I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell. That would include millions and millions of God's creatures who lived and died without ever hearing about the Biblical God.

Jlisen took the opposite position and based it on verses from the Bible. I examined each one and found none of them supporting his position without adding terms not originally found in the quoted verses.

And unbelievers in which version of God? The God of the Jews? The God of the Lutherans? The God of the Catholics? The God of the Baptists? The God of the Muslims? And each of those religions/denominations has sub-groups that differ about how they understand God and what He has told them.

Waltero, you listed more than a dozen scriptures for which I commend you, but that is not enough for those who simply refuse to believe or who claim not to know which God the Bible is talking about. Revelation 20 is enough by itself, but not for those who do not want to believe.

The New Testament is really very clear on the subject of faith in Christ. 1 John 5:11, for instance, states, "God has given us eternal life, this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life." And how, you ask, do we receive the Son? John 1:11ff reads, "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Very clear.

And heaven's population will be very small....

@Wondergirl:

"And unbelievers in which version of God?"
Is this a trick question? I'd say all the above, to include the one and only living God.

Remember we only get anything from God by being immersed [baptized] in the Lord Jesus Christ, like Jacob we put on Esau’s [Jesus] skin and get His inheritance, for only one person will be saved from the earth... (Col 3:1-4).
@Athos:

"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him..."
Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

All have seen, all have heard of him...I have another reference that tells how Creation Speaks to all...If you think said idea is still valid???
It is a Hard thing to think about; A loving God that would condemn his creatures/creation.
Unfortunatly for some, we have a Just GOD.
God's justice. Deut 32:4. Just and right is he.' Job 37:23. Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in plenty of justice.' God is said to dwell in justice. Psa 89:14. Justice and judgement are the habitation of thy throne.' In God, power and justice meet. Power holds the sceptre, and justice holds the balance.
God's justice is such that it is not fit for any man or angel to expostulate with him, or demand a reason of his actions. God has not only authority on his side, but equity. He lays judgement to the line, and righteousness to the plummet.' Isa 28:17. It is below him to give an account to us of his proceedings. Which of these two is more fit to take place, God's justice or man's reason? Rom 9:20. Who art thou, O man, that replies against God?' The plumb line of our reason is too short to fathom the depth of God's justice. Rom 11:33. How unsearchable are his judgements!' We are to adore God's justice, where we cannot see a reason of it. God's justice runs in two channels. It is seen in two things, the distribution of rewards and punishments.God is not bound to give an account of his actions to his creatures. If none may say to a king, What doest thou?' Eccles 8:4, much less to God. It is sufficient, God is Lord paramount; he has a sovereign power over his creatures, therefore can do no injustice. Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonor?' Rom 9:21I. God has liberty in his own breast, to save one, and not another; and his justice is not at all impeached or blemished. If two men owe you money, you may, without any injustice, remit the debt to one, and exact it of the other. If two malefactors be condemned to die, the king may pardon the one and not the other: he is not unjust if he lets one suffer, because he offended the law; nor if he save the other, because he will make use of his prerogative as he is king.

If God lets men prosper a while in their sin, his vial of wrath is all this while filling; his sword is all this time whetting: and though God may forbear men a while, yet long forbearance is no forgiveness. The longer God is in taking his blow, the heavier it will be at last. As long as there is eternity, God has time enough to reckon with his enemies.

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Originally Posted by waltero

@Wondergirl:

"And unbelievers in which version of God?"
Is this a trick question? I'd say all the above, to include the one and only living God.

Remember we only get anything from God by being immersed [baptized] in the Lord Jesus Christ, like Jacob we put on Esau’s [Jesus] skin and get His inheritance, for only one person will be saved from the earth... (Col 3:1-4).
@Athos:

"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him..."
Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

All have seen, all have heard of him...I have another reference that tells how Creation Speaks to all...If you think said idea is still valid???
It is a Hard thing to think about; A loving God that would condemn his creatures/creation.
Unfortunatly for some, we have a Just GOD.
God's justice. Deut 32:4. Just and right is he.' Job 37:23. Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in plenty of justice.' God is said to dwell in justice. Psa 89:14. Justice and judgement are the habitation of thy throne.' In God, power and justice meet. Power holds the sceptre, and justice holds the balance.
God's justice is such that it is not fit for any man or angel to expostulate with him, or demand a reason of his actions. God has not only authority on his side, but equity. He lays judgement to the line, and righteousness to the plummet.' Isa 28:17. It is below him to give an account to us of his proceedings. Which of these two is more fit to take place, God's justice or man's reason? Rom 9:20. Who art thou, O man, that replies against God?' The plumb line of our reason is too short to fathom the depth of God's justice. Rom 11:33. How unsearchable are his judgements!' We are to adore God's justice, where we cannot see a reason of it. God's justice runs in two channels. It is seen in two things, the distribution of rewards and punishments.God is not bound to give an account of his actions to his creatures. If none may say to a king, What doest thou?' Eccles 8:4, much less to God. It is sufficient, God is Lord paramount; he has a sovereign power over his creatures, therefore can do no injustice. Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonor?' Rom 9:21I. God has liberty in his own breast, to save one, and not another; and his justice is not at all impeached or blemished. If two men owe you money, you may, without any injustice, remit the debt to one, and exact it of the other. If two malefactors be condemned to die, the king may pardon the one and not the other: he is not unjust if he lets one suffer, because he offended the law; nor if he save the other, because he will make use of his prerogative as he is king.

If God lets men prosper a while in their sin, his vial of wrath is all this while filling; his sword is all this time whetting: and though God may forbear men a while, yet long forbearance is no forgiveness. The longer God is in taking his blow, the heavier it will be at last. As long as there is eternity, God has time enough to reckon with his enemies.

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Thanks Walter. The words you quoted from the Bible are fine and good. But Walter, please be honest, where in those fine words are unbelievers condemned to hell for eternal punishment? There is much about God's justice which has not been denied here but nothing about UNBELIEVERS BEING CONDEMNED TO HELL FOR ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.

If that is your position, please give the specific words in the Bible proving that. Not your interpretation or personal belief, but the actual specific words where God condemns unbelievers to hell and eternal punishment.

To help you, you need 4 characteristics for your proof:
1. unbelievers
2. condemnation
3. hell
4. eternal punishment
Your proof should contain all 4. Thank you.