Ask Me Help Desk - Good ol' Pagan Christmas

Okay, I just skimmed, but that source you gave me indicated MY BIRTHDAY! :eek:

...If we project Jesus' conception on or about December 24, and if we assume a normal pregnancy of 280 days, Jesus would have been born on or about September 29, 2 B.C.. Of course, this is only an approximate estimation. It is conceivable that John the Baptist could have been conceived and born a week or so earlier than our conjecture, or a week later. Likewise, it is entirely possible that Mary could have received Gabriels annunciation and conceived the Christ child as early as the very first week of Elizabeth's 6th month, and not half to two-thirds of the way through the month. In this case, Jesus would have been born as early as the first week of September, rather than at the end of the month. Any combination of these factors might be possible, which could push Jesus' birth as much as a month earlier, or a half-month later, depending upon the variables, but this doesn't seem likely to me. I believe that the evidence points to a mid-to-late December conception and a late September birth for the Son of God.

Conclusion:
What does it matter if Jesus was born on or about September 29th...
Okay, I'm to tired, and that is all going over my head, but unless I missed something, that site believes Jesus and I share a birthday?

Don't know.Don't care.It changes nothing for me.My savior that's it!
Let's celebrate Easter & Jesus' True Birthday, April 17!

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I never said do not mix with the sinner.
That is another related but separate topic

The Bible DOES discuss
Babylon
Witchcraft
The Old Testament is full of stories on pagan worship and how God called it idolatry.

Moses cautioned the children of Israel: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

“For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king” (1 Samuel 23).

Leviticus 19:26 is that "observing times" is condemned literally in the same breath as eating blood, a practice clearly forbidden by the apostles in Acts 15 and 21. So, even from this one verse we can see quite clearly that the apostles considered the observance of times a pagan practice. And, since the apostles considered observing times a pagan practice, for a Christian to "observe times" would mean that they had incorporated a pagan practice into their worship of God and had, therefore, violated Deuteronomy 12:29-32 where God commands his people not to do unto Him what the pagans do unto their gods.

Both 2 Kings 21:6 and 2 Chronicles 33:6 associate the pagan practice of "observing times" as "provoking God to anger." Similarly, "provoking God to anger" is associated with idolatry in general in all the following verses: Deuteronomy 4:25, Deuteronomy 32:16-17, Judges 2:12, 1 Kings 14:9, 1 Kings 15:30, 1 Kings 16:2, 1 Kings 22:53, 2 Kings 17:11, 2 Kings 17:17, and 2 Kings 22:17.

What is significant about the phrase, "provoking the Lord to anger" is its similarity to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 10, where Paul writes, "flee from idolatry" in verse 14, and then with regard to eating meats sacrificed to idols writes the following:

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

in Exodus 20 verse 2, God refers to Egypt as the "house of bondage." No wonder Paul is borrowing this idea of "bondage" and "slavery" with regard to pagan practices in Galatians 4. But more importantly, in verse 5, God declares that the reason the Israelites are forbidden from idolatry is that God is "a jealous God." So, by referring to both "provoking the Lord" and to God being a jealous God in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul is clearly showing the partaking of pagan sacrificial meals is absolutely wrong and equivalent to idolatry, which is why Paul states "flee from idolatry." Clearly, Paul does not want Christians anywhere near pagan practices including eating meat sacrificed to idols and observing times.

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs [0226] of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

At this point it is no surprise that this verse begins with God commanding his people not to learn the ways of the pagans, even as Deuteronomy 12 commands God's people not to practice the ways of the pagans unto the LORD God. However, here in Jeremiah we also find the peculiar statement that the "heathen are dismayed at the signs of heaven." And God tells his people Israel not to be "dismayed at the signs of heaven." But what does this phrase, "the signs of heaven" mean?

Jeremiah 10:2-4
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not

biblestudying.net

Occultism and Witchcraft in the Bible

This is actually the scriptures I was about to put up. These holidays didn't pop up in the new testament. They were celebrated way before new testament times... alot of these holidays involved idol worship and witchcraft...

Its just in the days we're living in now, things can look so innocent, that's why you have to look and see where did these holidays and customs come from that are kept from generation to generation going back before Jesus's time...

You have to be very careful.

The bible says to "Prove all things, Hold fast to that which is good" So guard your spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet_Guy23

Im a christian and I found that actually Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all. Jesus Christ's birth is not mention in the bible not once and every other source that I have check all say that his birth was never confirmed, unknown, not told. ?

Think you might read the New Testament there buddy What we know about Jesus birth is contained there.

The celebration of Christmas is a tradition that started centuries after Christ, and conveniently filled the hole left by dropping some pagan rituals. We have continued to develop the tradition and now it is all about retail sales of junk we don't need anyway.

You see Jesus knew this sort of thing would happen he warned us when he said it is by your traditions you nullify the Word of God. Any way it is a good excuse to get together with the family

Quote:

Originally Posted by HelpinHere

What does it matter if Jesus was born on or about September 29th

"nothing" and in advance, Happy Birthday!

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

The Bible DOES discuss Babylon Witchcraft. The Old Testament is full of stories on pagan worship and how God called it idolatry.

I think we would all agree that there are biblical stories of evil, idolatry, paganism, provoking God and angels.

So, this means what with regard to Christmas being a pagan holiday? {Surly, you see how difficult it is to say “Christ’s Mass is pagan” – which is actually what’s being implied.}

JoeT

Whatever
I don't think you get the point I was making

There is a big difference between what the Bible teaches and what religion teaches.

As you say God did not tolerate any involvement with other religions or any of their practices or traditions, so there is no way in the world he will tolerate it now.

Of course religions will present volumes of philosophical explanations as to why they go against what God requires and even argue that it is in fact what God requires.

The Bible is easy to understand and those that tell you otherwise want to introduce philosophy and tradition into the Bible teachings, and take your money and revel in the power and glory they receive from other people.

JoeT,
I agree with you.
If, and it is a big IF, there is something pagan about Christianity it is 100% OK with me and many others that to convert something bad into something good in Christianity is the right thing to do.
Example, years ago I was involved in the conversion of a pagan Druid into Christianity and had the honor of being his Godfather during the ceremony.
To see his face when he received the grand slam of baptism, Confirmation, confession, and first communion it was as if he had a bright light shining through his face.
The grace of God was there for all to see.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You may as well have left him performing his Druit rituals and simply renamed them Christian and the process would be much quicker.

You cannot perform pagan rituals and simply say it is okay because I now call them christian

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Newton

You may as well have left him performing his Druit rituals and simply renamed them Christian and the process would be much quicker.

You cannot perform pagan rituals and simply say it is okay because I now call them christian

This is a trick question so be careful. This may seem totally unrelated, but let me ask a question. In the parable of the prodigal son, what is one of the morals being taught?

1). The Father rejoiced because at least one son stayed did all those things ‘right’?

2). The Father rejoiced because he wanted stake for dinner.

3). The Father rejoiced that the prodigal son no longer dances with pigs for food thus doesn’t smell so bad?

4). The Father rejoiced because the son who was once dead to the family came back?

Can you relate your question to converting pagan rituals to ‘Christmas Mass’? I can.

JoeT

Joe,
I can see where you are coming from with that.
I hope that I Newton can.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Arcura:

Yeah, and it would have been witty too, if I could spell steak.

JoeT

I completely agree with you, I am a Seventh Day Adventist and we do not celebrate Christmas or easter or any of the other "christian" festivals. We only have a thanksgiving service on Dec 31st for that year. Not once in the bible or has any historian has given proof that Jesus was born on Dec 25th.

I recently came across an article that said that Jesus was born in the summer months in bethlehem. How ever it is freezing in bethlehem in December. The shepherds were all out in the grassy fields with their sheep the night the angels shared the good news. I'm sure that they would'nt be there had it been freezing. And during His crucifixion when Peter denys him to the woman thy are all by the fire warming themselves because it's very cold.So he didn't die in April either. I agree that global warming will have an effect on climate but not as drastically as this.

chocodrip,
Believe as you wish, but the shepherds bring their sheep in from the high mountains in the fall where though the winter is cold it is not as freezing frigid as the mountains.
Have you ever been in a desert? The days are toasty warm of hot but the nights are very chilly.
Nights in Death Valley are often ion the 30's and 40s.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I heartily agree with you on the question of Christmas and Easter. These ARE holidays that were co opted into Christianity in order to make it more palatable to people who did NOT believe in Christ or His worship. I think that claiming that because God has not stricken down the celebrants, it is therefore fine to do. I myself, do NOT celebrate Christmas, Easter, or Halloween, and haven't for over 20 years, though I am a "born again Christian". I can find no instance where we are admonished to celebrate either Christmas OR Easter... in fact NEITHER word is even found in the Bible, except in one instance... Acts 12:4
"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." In this instance, it is obviously a mistranslation... Easter was not even KNOWN to the people who God inspired to pen His Word, nor a part of Christian doctrine until several centuries later... how could it possibly be the correct translation? We ARE admonished, however, NOT to mix pagan practices with Christianity:

"And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark:7:7)

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."
(Mark 7:12-14)

"And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them."
(2 Kings 17:14-16)

"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."
(Jeremiah 10:1-3)

"And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are round about you."
(Ezekiel 11:11-13)

These are but a few of the many verses upon which I made my decision NOT to celebrate. I must stress here, that this is a personal decision, and not one that I believe is the difference of whether you are a Christian OR deserving of salvation. To my knowledge, the only deciding factor in that ultimate fate, is a personal acceptance of the free gift of salvation offered to all by our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not claim that anyone will be consigned to hell because of their observance or nonobservance... and I base this on the following verses:
Romans 14

" 1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. "
And

"17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

To me, it is a matter of knowledge... once you know (or believe you do), you have the responsibility to act accordingly. If, to you, it is sin... it IS sin. I do not condemn people who, through lack of knowledge/understanding celebrate these holidays to God's glory. For me, it is an affront to God to mix a pagan "holiday" with the worship of God, and I cannot indulge in this sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KristaEstrella

I heartily agree with you on the question of Christmas and Easter. These ARE holidays that were co opted into Christianity in order to make it more palatable to people who did NOT believe in Christ or His worship. I think that claiming that because God has not stricken down the celebrants, it is therefore fine to do. I myself, do NOT celebrate Christmas, Easter, or Halloween, and haven't for over 20 years, though I am a "born again Christian". I can find no instance where we are admonished to celebrate either Christmas OR Easter.....in fact NEITHER word is even found in the Bible, except in one instance...Acts 12:4
"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." In this instance, it is obviously a mistranslation....Easter was not even KNOWN to the people who God inspired to pen His Word, nor a part of Christian doctrine until several centuries later...how could it possibly be the correct translation? We ARE admonished, however, NOT to mix pagan practices with Christianity:

"And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark:7:7)

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."
(Mark 7:12-14)

"And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them."
(2 Kings 17:14-16)

"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."
(Jeremiah 10:1-3)

"And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are round about you."
(Ezekiel 11:11-13)

These are but a few of the many verses upon which I made my decision NOT to celebrate. I must stress here, that this is a personal decision, and not one that I believe is the difference of whether you are a Christian OR deserving of salvation. To my knowledge, the only deciding factor in that ultimate fate, is a personal acceptance of the free gift of salvation offered to all by our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not claim that anyone will be consigned to hell because of their observance or nonobservance....and I base this on the following verses:
Romans 14

" 1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. "
And

"17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

To me, it is a matter of knowledge...once you know (or believe you do), you have the responsibility to act accordingly. If, to you, it is sin....it IS sin. I do not condemn people who, through lack of knowledge/understanding celebrate these holidays to God's glory. For me, it is an affront to God to mix a pagan "holiday" with the worship of God, and I cannot indulge in this sin.

Seriously? I have the knowledge of all of these so called pagan holidays. So what? Do we as born again Christians celebrate them as such? REALLY? Christmas? Easter? PLEASE. The non-Christians are STILL trying to take CHIRST out of Christmas. And we so called Christians are having trouble with celebrating Christmas and Easter? :rolleyes: These "pagan" Holidays are where some actually hear the gospel maybe for the first time. Sorry I don't get it the objection. I don't get the compromise.

The birth of Christ is IN the Bible. No, Jesus didn't not specifically say to remember his birth. But the fact that non Christians today prefer and promote using" Happy Holidays" instead of Merry CHRISTmas.. speaks volumes. Here is a biblical thought... what Satan means for harm, God turns around for good!! Radical stuff, I know. Sometimes Christmas and Easter are the only times people go to Church. I wonder how many have been saved on those days?

BTW... You totally do NOT understand what the Apostle Paul is saying. We are FREE. He was FREE to eat meat that was sacrificed to idols. SHOCKING back in the day. WHY? Because it meant NOTHING!! Paul refers to the ones who wouldn't eat the meat as the WEAKER Christians.

I think this is a PERFECT example of gagging on a nat and swallowing a camel. Just my thoughts.