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Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
I believe that there are many churches but only a very few that fit into my definition of a true full Church.
Very few have an apostle servant leader.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred:

It’s my belief that there is a fullness of faith that is only found in our Church. In fact Paul makes this statement strait out. “And [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell “(Col 1:18-19) God fills that body with himself, the Mystical Body of Christ, firstborn from the dead that pleases the Father.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Fred:
It’s my belief that there is a fullness of faith that is only found in our Church.

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Scripture speaks against denominationalism.

1 Cor 1:11-14
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
NKJV

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In fact Paul makes this statement strait out. “And [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell “(Col 1:18-19)

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The body that he speaks about is clearly indicated in scripture as being the body of Christ, not a denomination or organization of men.

Joe,
I agree.
Ours is the One, Holy, Apostolic Church with servant leader apostles under the supreme head of Jesus Christ.
I see that Yj3 us still stuck in the rut of denominalationism which did not become a fact till Luther's time.
Before that the Catholic Church was never referred to as a denomination.
In fact it really is not a denomination now because it is the Mother Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Ours is the One, Holy, Apostolic Church with servant leader apostles under the supreme head of Jesus Christ.

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Scripture says that there only ever has been 12 Apostles. Any Apostles today must be very old men - do tell me how to contact them - I'd like to verify their age!

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I see that Yj3 us still stuck in the rut of denominalationism which did not become a fact till Luther's time.

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Interesting accusation from someone claiming that their denomination is the only true denomination, whereas I am not even a member of any denomination.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Before that the Catholic Church was never referred to as a denomination.
In fact it really is not a denomination now because it is the Mother Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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The broadest definition of a denomination is the one Wikipedia uses: "A Christian denomination is an identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine within Christianity.... Catholicism is the largest denomination, comprising just over half of Christians worldwide. Protestant denominations comprise about 40% of Christians worldwide, and together the Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans, and closely related denominations compose Western Christianity."

Wikipedia goes on to say, "The earliest recorded evidence of the use of the term 'Catholic Church' is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107 to Christians in Smyrna. Saint Ignatius used the term to designate the Christian Church possessing true traditions, excluding heretics, such as those who 'confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.' Exhorting Christians to remain closely united with their bishop, he wrote: 'Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.'" Constantine I did not establish and name the Catholic Church; he merely legalized it in the Roman Empire.

Like arcura said, Catholicism developed from the Early Church, and, from it, all the other Christian denominations are derived. And yes, arcura, the word "denomination" came to mean the any one of the Christian churches that came about because of the Reformation.

[QUOTE=JoeT777;1608484]I would agree that church is “an assembly” or an assembly place. But I see that place as being much more than a prayer assembly.

Well, yes in the case of Christians is supposed to represent the body of our Faith.

While we can and should pray at, work, at home, or at play, I don’t hold that Church is of little importance. We know this to be so because ‘Church’ also means the entire body of believers, the Church Militant, those believers on earth; the Church Suffering, those believers in a state of purgatory; and the Church Triumphant, those believers in Heaven. “A body of men united together by the profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff, the sole vicar of Christ on earth" (St. Bellarmine, De Eccl. III, ii, 9)

I am considering the "building" as the less important part of the "Church".
What I'm trying to say is that I consider, as you yourself point out, the Church as any place where a group of Christians get together to pray, for the name Church is applied to the body of believers.
In this sense the most magnificent Cathedral or the Vatican building is no more important than the humblest little hermitage hidden in a mountain top...

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

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You've lost me with most of this; I don't see the relevance with 'Church'.

To hold this view that each different church, each different faith, can beleive in the absolute truths revealed by God in such a subjective manner implies that our God is schizophrenic. He tells the Baptist one belief, the Lutherans another belief and the Catholics yet something else? For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they ... Now you are the body of Christ and members of member. 1 Cor 12:12,27 Each individual member is bound into the body with the sinew of faith guided by its head, Christ. How do you make sense of a schizophrenic God?

JoeT

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Joe, I do hope you read this and find the relevance. I pray for each, and eveyone to be one with Christ.

In post # 33 you have noted the importance of verse 10:17 in Corinthians. One verse pulled out of the teaching of Corinthians 10. What I refer is in showing the importance of everything that was being said in Chapter 10, and the meaning of each referenced verse as it is being told.

How the example from the days of Moses going into the wilderness (1 Cor 10:5) were found to be displeasing to God. Especially when Moses left to go up and be with God. How the crowd gathered together giving ear to the voices of man, and their foolishness. That even Aaron being of the priesthood, in trying to please the men, went along with what was being said by them (the men.)

A final message in (1 Cor 10:31) exampled in telling us whether it be what we eat, or drink or anything we do, we are to give thanks and glory to God.

Not anyone other then God should be shown praise or glory for their labor or works. That our conscience mind is judged upon our own actions, and judged by God alone. God states that He uses the weaker of man. I believe that is because they follow Him, and are not as prideful in their own ways.

And we are not to lead others as the foolish men did in Moses day, not the Jews, Gentiles, or Church can save man because that is what was given as the example. That was the reason Aaron fell in trying to please them. Giving them what they needed in signs, and offering a different direction or way then what was originally shown by God. The men were afraid God and Moses had left them to die there. Who then could save them?

The idea that anyone can give people a better way then what Christ, himself exampled is foolishness of man. Man offering people signs, and showing them new ways of following what God wants, provokes God to anger.

And God's fire sends delusion, and what you have call a sense of a schizophrenic. The 7 churches told of in Revelation, and God's message to each does example God's warning to the churches for misleading His children, falling out of God ways, in pleasing them with different ways.

Only 2 churches are exampled doing what was pleasing to God. One should ask themselves if their church is doing what is pleasing to God? Are they doing what the 2 exampled churches were said to be doing?

God's word says: Otherwise are they thinking they are stronger then God? (1 Corinthians 10:22)

God does tell us and promises, that each church and man is tempted by the same hourly temptation which beguiled Eve. Remember Paul spoke that he hoped the minds would not be beguiled from the simplicity that is Christ. ( 2 Corinthains 11:3)..

And in 1 Corinthains 10:13 God's word is that He will remain faithful and not suffer temptation above what we are able to bear, and He will aways gives ways to escape the foolishness and evil. We just have to hear Christ, and do things His way.

Phl 1:15-17 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


Phl 1:19-20 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death.


Phl 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

`In Christ

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Joe, I do hope you read this and find the relevance. I pray for each, and eveyone to be one with Christ.

In post # 33 you have noted the importance of verse 10:17 in Corinthians. One verse pulled out of the teaching of Corinthians 10. What I refer is in showing the importance of everything that was being said in Chapter 10, and the meaning of each referenced verse as it is being told.

How the example from the days of Moses going into the wilderness (1 Cor 10:5) were found to be displeasing to God. Especially when Moses left to go up and be with God. How the crowd gathered together giving ear to the voices of man, and their foolishness. That even Aaron being of the priesthood, in trying to please the men, went along with what was being said by them (the men.)

A final message in (1 Cor 10:31) exampled in telling us whether it be what we eat, or drink or anything we do, we are to give thanks and glory to God.

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I would agree that verse 31 of Chapter 10 in first Epistle to the Corinthians is the focus of the entire chapter. I would add verse 30 so that Paul concludes thus:

Be without offence to the Jew, and to the Gentiles and to the church of God: As I also in all things please all men, not seeking that which is profitable to myself but to many: that they may be saved. (1Cor 10:30-31)

I do however draw completely different conclusions and don't equate them to 'Church'. In Chapter 10 Paul is teaching that there are no 'unclean' animals as the Jews held, and thus what is eaten or drunk does not offend God. If Paul's confusing you it may be due to your lack of understanding concerning the “chalice of benediction”, which is Holy Communion. (As an aside – isn't it strange that we should see reference to the body and blood of Christ in Paul's writings? Could he be Catholic?) By partaking the communicant is sharing in sacred mysteries becoming One with the Mystical Body of Christ; “One bread, One body all that partake of One Bread” Cf. 1Cor 10:14-17). Paul consequently points out that if we were to hold certain foods, certain drink “unholy” likewise we would be partaking of the devils communion. God has removed this objection proclaiming all foods good so we don't “provoke the Lord to jealousy”. (Cf. 1Cor 10:23)

The point being that 'Church' is not discussed in this Chapter in the same context as this thread.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Not anyone other then God should be shown praise or glory for their labor or works. That our conscience mind is judged upon our own actions, and judged by God alone. God states that He uses the weaker of man. I believe that is because they follow Him, and are not as prideful in their own ways.

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Catholics do urge works, since faith without works is dead. But it should be clear to you that those works are intended as works in Charity.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

And we are not to lead others as the foolish men did in Moses day, not the Jews, Gentiles, or Church can save man because that is what was given as the example. That was the reason Aaron fell in trying to please them. Giving them what they needed in signs, and offering a different direction or way then what was originally shown by God. The men were afraid God and Moses had left them to die there. Who then could save them?

The idea that anyone can give people a better way then what Christ, himself exampled is foolishness of man. Man offering people signs, and showing them new ways of following what God wants, provokes God to anger.

And God's fire sends delusion, and what you have call a sense of a schizophrenic. The 7 churches told of in Revelation, and God's message to each does example God's warning to the churches for misleading His children, falling out of God ways, in pleasing them with different ways.

Only 2 churches are exampled doing what was pleasing to God. One should ask themselves if their church is doing what is pleasing to God? Are they doing what the 2 exampled churches were said to be doing?

God's word says: Otherwise are they thinking they are stronger then God? (1 Corinthians 10:22)

God does tell us and promises, that each church and man is tempted by the same hourly temptation which beguiled Eve. Remember Paul spoke that he hoped the minds would not be beguiled from the simplicity that is Christ ( 2 Corinthains 11:3)..

And in 1 Corinthains 10:13 God's word is that He will remain faithful and not suffer temptation above what we are able to bear, and He will aways gives ways to escape the foolishness and evil. We just have to hear Christ, and do things His way.

Phl 1:15-17 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Phl 1:19-20 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death.

Phl 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

In Christ

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Now, having the appearance of the iconic Poppa John's Pizza Man doesn't necessarily mean that I'm as stupid as I look. Reading between the verses, what's being conveyed to me is that the Roman Church, the Body of Christ, places itself at the head; that in doing so foolishly it is provoking God; that Catholics are schizophrenically deluded; that the Body of Christ, the Church, is not found pleasing to God contrary to Col 1:18-19; that Catholics are foolish, beguiled, etc. ect… I just didn't want you to think it went unnoticed.

JoeT

Guess I have a different bible than some of you, I know of the 12, mine also says they replaced Judas with a Apsotle, and then Paul,

That is at least 14 Apostles we are given by name.

But then to believe that God would stop providing his blessings, I don't see where the bible says his grace in giving us prophets and Apostles ever stopped, in fact it appears , at least in my bible, that this is a on going Gift of the Holy Spirit

Acts 1:26
Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.


1 Corinthians 12:28
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Wikipedia goes on to say, "The earliest recorded evidence of the use of the term 'Catholic Church' is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107 to Christians in Smyrna. Saint Ignatius used the term to designate the Christian Church possessing true traditions, excluding heretics, such as those who 'confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.' Exhorting Christians to remain closely united with their bishop, he wrote: 'Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.'" Constantine I did not establish and name the Catholic Church; he merely legalized it in the Roman Empire.

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Keep in mind that there is a difference between for the formalized organization and what referred to as the catholic church in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. There term then was being used to refer to the universal church, i.e. churches which held to sound doctrine. There was an attempt to establish central organizational control which failed. The churches were not under a denominational structure until Constantine forced it.

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

I am considering the "building" as the less important part of the "Church".
What I'm trying to say is that I consider, as you yourself point out, the Church as any place where a group of Christians get together to pray, for the name Church is applied to the body of believers.

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This is an important point. The true church is not the building or organization. Anyplace where believers gather, the church is there because the believers are the church. The nicest church building or a large church organization is not the true church if the believers are not there.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Catholics do urge works, since faith without works is dead. But it should be clear to you that those works are intended as works in Charity.

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The topic is not Catholics it is Churches... This is a Christian forum not just a catholic forum... Fellowhship in Christ. This applies to us that follow in Christ and those who don't follow Christ...

Works can be righteousness when they are done as Christ did. He did show us the way.. He suffered works in baptism as a righteous act. Doing the Will of God.. And done in faith of fulfillment.

The following verse in Phl 3 says, I count all things... except the loss for excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus... Your own righteousness done by the law is not the point... because it would be shown in doing unto other as you would want done unto you as the law tells you. . . However anything done in faith for Christ, for example: Christ walked in showing glory to His Father, we walk in showing glory to Christ..

Phl 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Now, having the appearance of the iconic Poppa John's Pizza Man doesn't necessarily mean that I'm as stupid as I look. Reading between the verses, what's being conveyed to me is that the Roman Church, the Body of Christ, places itself at the head; that in doing so foolishly it is provoking God; that Catholics are schizophrenically deluded; that the Body of Christ, the Church, is not found pleasing to God contrary to Col 1:18-19; that Catholics are foolish, beguiled, ect., ect… I just didn't want you to think it went unnoticed.

JoeT

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Once again you target the Catholic Church or Catholics in general.. This is The Word of God being discussed, and those verse don't target Catholics.. My question would be, do you find offense in God's Word which were the scriptures I referenced?

1 Corinthians 10:11-13 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

That does not mean man is perfect... And let us remember: Satan himself walked in pride thinking he was perfect, satan has fallen! It is the option of all men...

Ensample Aaron the priesthood, was he perfect?

Ensample Peter walking on water, was he shown as perfect?

Ensample all disciples on Mt Olive sleeping, does it show them as perfect?

Do you understand this verse being the Christians churches and their teaching of Christ?..

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.



Do you understand this to be error, when not doing as Christ has shown us to do?

The Holy Spirit speaking: Hebrews 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.


Christ is the Way

Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

But then to belive that God would stop providing his blessings, I don't see where the bible says his grace in giving us prophets and Apostles ever stoped, in fact it appears , at least in my bible, that this is a on going Gift of the Holy Spirit

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II Corinthains 2 Paul wrote a letter to the church, he really was not joyfull about writing. He had to straighen things out. He concluded that when they repent of wrong doing, one does not hold it over their head. Yet he also concludes in saying Lest satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2:11)

Paul urged that sincerety in Christ, and His ways should be taught, and not man's words that corrupt the word of God. (2:11)

Paul tells us that we are only free from the bondage of sin, when we are in Christ then we find liberty. (3:17)

We preach not ourselves but of Christ Jesus ..(4:5) When our hearts of love is for Christ, Only then does Christ light shine out of the darkness (4:6)

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

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No not all.. each are gifted according to God's Will.

Not by their own hands of glory, but in the glory of God

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The topic is not just Catholics... This is a Christian forum.. Fellowhship in Christ. This applies to us all...

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Yes it is and I’m a Christian and I enjoy the conversation, sometimes its stimulating. BTW, a Catholic is a Christian – I just wasn’t sure you knew that.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Works can be righteousness when they are done as Christ did. He did show us the way.. He suffered works in baptism as a righteous act. Doing the Will of God.. And done in faith of Christ Jesus.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The following verse says I count all things... except the loss for excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus... Your own righteousness done by the law is not the point... because it would be shown in doing unto other as you would want done unto you as the law tells you. . . However anything done in faith for Christ, for example: Christ walked in showing glory to His Father, we walk in showing glory to Christ..

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Walking in Christ is our goal, but this verse doesn’t say don’t go to Church, does it?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Phl 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

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? Which means what in relation to ‘Church’?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Once again you target this to mean the Catholic Church or Catholics in general.. This is The Word of God being discussed, and those verse don't just target Catholics.. My question would be, do you find offense in God's Word which were the scriptures I referenced?

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I’m completely the mercy of our host. If this board is for Christian question and answer, I would certain think Catholics fit that mold. However, unlike others, Catholics aren’t constrained to scripture alone. Consequently I don’t feel bound by your fetters.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

1 Corinthians 10:11-13 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

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I’m still at a lost how this bears on the topic ‘Church’?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

That does not mean man is perfect... And let us remember: Satan himself walked in pride thinking he was perfect, satan has fallen! It is the option of all men...

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“That man is perfect” was never brought up, at least not by me. But, man can be made holy by Christ through Mystical Body of Christ.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Ensample Aaron the priesthood, was he perfect?

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No, nor was it implied or stated that he was. You might recall, bringing Aaron into the Church was your idea.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Ensample Peter walking on water, was he shown as perfect?

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No, and nobody I know of in the RC Church walks on water, yet. We’re working on it!

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Ensample all disciples on Mt Olive sleeping, does it show them as perfect?

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No, but Christ is our head, and He doesn’t need sleep.

JoeT

Wondergirl
You are right about the Catholic Church. The holy bible and real authentic history supports what you said and don't anyone TRY to convince you differently for you told The TRUTH.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

BTW, a Catholic is a Christian – I just wasn’t sure you knew that.

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No one is saved simply because they are a member of a denomination - any denomination, including yours. A Christian may be part of any denomination, but membership does not automatically save anyone.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

No one is saved simply because they are a member of a denomination - any denomination, including yours. A Christian may be part of any denomination, but membership does not automatically save anyone.

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This is absolutely true. Being a member of any Church does not necessarily mean that one have a passport to enjoy the Kingdom of God forever! It does take much more than membership. It takes sacrifice to follow Christ's path which HE already warned us it was a very difficult one.

Which makes sense. Because if good things in Earth are costly and normally need an effort on our part to obtain them, can you imagine the difficulties we have to overcome to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yes it is and I'm a Christian and I enjoy the conversation, sometimes its stimulating. BTW, a Catholic is a Christian – I just wasn't sure you knew that.

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Assuredly I do know that, and I have referenced the fact that a church being of Christian fellowship was said to be one that preaches of Christ.. And that we rejoice in that Truth.
Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Walking in Christ is our goal, but this verse doesn't say don't go to Church, does it?

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No it does not.. It is however differicult to know what you are implying concerning church with this question. The building? The foundation? or The fellowship? (or) Do you imply all of these being a walk in Christ. In either case, what was referenced was righteousness within the fellowship of churches. The scripture referenced to it was: Phl 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

?? Which means what in relation to 'Church' ??

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Noted once again that the fellowship within the Christian churches is to preach of Christ Jesus The Word, The gospel written in scripture by evidence of the ensamples of Christ the high priest and head, His disciples, the apostles, and prophets known as the foundation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I'm completely the mercy of our host. If this board is for Christian question and answer, I would certain think Catholics fit that mold. However, unlike others, Catholics aren't constrained to scripture alone. Consequently I don't feel bound by your fetters.

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Truth is of the Word being Christ Jesus... I claim nothing other then His Way.

From the Flesh of The Word: Phl 1:20-21 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I'm still at a lost how this bears on the topic 'Church'?

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The reference was: 1 Corinthians 10:11-13 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

The fellowship of churches, and the teaching within the church would recognize the ensample of all that is written as the Truth in testmony for admonition until the end.

Noted not to fall in temptation of man's way which is common, but to remain stedfast in faith, assured in knowing God is faithful in His hand of strength, not permitting more then one can bear.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

“That man is perfect” was never brought up, at least not by me. But, man can be made holy by Christ through Mystical Body of Christ.

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Man's sin are washed away, bolted out by the blood of Christ. And Holy communian is in rememberance of Christ as the begotten Son of God, the flesh of The Word, acknowledging His blood being worthy in offering grace in forgiveness of sin. By The Word that is exhorted in what His way, His light can bring to each of us (if) we follow HIm, and hear His voice.

Referenced in Eph 4:13-15 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

This is the Love Peter had for Christ.... and those who follow Christ

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Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

This is absolutely true. Being a member of any Church does not necessarily mean that one have a passport to enjoy the Kingdom of God forever! It does take much more than membership. It takes sacrifice to follow Christ's path which HE already warned us it was a very difficult one.

Which makes sense. Because if good things in Earth are costly and normally need an effort on our part to obtain them, can you imagine the difficulties we have to overcome to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom?

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The cost to enter was paid by Christ on the cross. But you are right, there is a huge cost for us also because once we choose to follow Christ, our lives will change, and we may find ourselves subject to ridicule and persecution. There is a price, and too often people are not aware of that price. But that cost is not to pay for our salvation, but is a consequence of our decision to follow Him.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The cost to enter was paid by Christ on the cross. But you are right, there is a huge cost for us also because once we choose to follow Christ, our lives will change, and we may find ourselves subject to ridicule and persecution. There is a price, and too often people are not aware of that price. But that cost is not to pay for our salvation, but is a consequence of our decision to follow Him.

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Right you are! And not only people are not too often aware of the price, but also more often than not, we are not even willing to pay it...