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Originally Posted by De Maria

members of the Church will be divinized, deified, because we will be sons in the Son, members of the body of Christ and are raised to a status higher than the angels because of our union with Christ.

We were not thus created.

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I think this is exactly right.

Akoue.
I agree.
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue.
I agree.
Fred

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Careful, Fred. Tom doesn't understand what we're talking about so you may get a dreaded "reddie" from him. Eek!

Akoue
What's a dreaded "reddie"?
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue
What's a dreaded "reddie"?
Fred

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The little red disagree box that comes up when someone rates an answer and disagrees. It seems Tom likes to give them out not for factually incorrect responses--as the site rules stipulate--but when he just doesn't like what someone says.

I keep forgetting that some people expect to be literally wearing crowns in heaven. They have no deep understanding, of the sort that you and De Maria and Joe have been discussing (here and on the Romans thread), of what union with God really means. The Greek word for this, "theosis", is translated "divinized" or "deified"--i.e. to become one with the Divine nature.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

members of the Church will be divinized, deified, because we will be sons in the Son, members of the body of Christ and are raised to a status higher than the angels because of our union with Christ.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I think this is exactly right.

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Not that anybody asked, but I can go along with this – even with the word 'divinized.' However, if stated as a formula, I’d feel compliant with the Magisterium if it read just slightly different: members of the Church will be divinized, deified, because we will be adopted sons of God, members of the body of Christ and are raised to a status higher than the angels because of our union with Christ.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Not that anybody asked, but I can go along with this – even with the word 'divinized.' However, if stated as a formula, I’d feel compliant with the Magisterium if it read just slightly different: members of the Church will be divinized, deified, because we will be adopted sons of God, members of the body of Christ and are raised to a status higher than the angels because of our union with Christ.

JoeT

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Fair enough. But note that we are already adopted sons and daughters of God. This is one of the reasons I think that what awaits is more intimate than adopted sonship. It is a thoroughgoing oneness with God's nature. Hence talk of divinization or deification: It is incorporation into the Divine.

What do you think? Am I missing the point of your reservations? (I fear I may be.)

Akoue,
Thanks for the reddie information.
I do think that to be "theosis" with God is to become one with Him as Jesus so prayed.
I also thank Rickj for his help to me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Here's something that's related to what we're discussing in a general way and which I didn't get the chance to bring up on the Romans thread: The Transfiguration. Here we have another great example of the union of the divine and the human (of course the Incarnation itself gives us that). But at the Transfiguration, the Divine shone through the human.

Any thoughts about what we are supposed to learn from that?

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue,
Thanks for the reddie information.
I do think that to be "theosis" with God is to become one with Him as Jesus so prayed.

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That's a great point, Fred. To become one "as you and I are one". And this gets to the question about angels as well, because, as I understand it, the union promised and vouchesafed by Christ is a union that the angels themselves don't enjoy. So while our nature is inferior to that of the angels in the order of creation, we are to receive a union that surpasses their own intimacy with God. Whether in the end they too will enjoy this union I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Fair enough. But note that we are already adopted sons and daughters of God. This is one of the reasons why I think that what awaits is more intimate than adopted sonship. It is a thoroughgoing oneness with God's nature. Hence talk of divinization or deification: It is incorporation into the Divine.

What do you think? Am I missing the point of your reservations? (I fear I may be.)

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Well yeah you're missing it, but probably only because I haven't actually voiced it yet. I've always held that the promise of redemption meant that we would be resurrected as men. And as such, men have both body and soul. Consequently, when drawn to heaven, we would be whole beings; such beings can't be incorporated into another. I can understand corporation as an allegorical statement; but not in a literal physical sense. And, then again maybe I'm just hung up on the physics of it all.

Scripture suggests resurrection similar to Christ's who was risen both body and soul.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Well yeah you’re missing it, but probably only because I haven’t actually voiced it yet. I’ve always held that the promise of redemption meant that we would be resurrected as men. And as such, men have both body and soul. Consequently, when drawn to heaven, we would be whole beings; such beings can’t be incorporated into another. I can understand corporation allegorical statement; but not in a literal physical sense. And, then again maybe I’m just hung up on the physics of it all.

JoeT

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I totally get where you're coming from. You're right, resurrection of the body means that theosis won't be just a spiritual union of souls but one of bodies as well. Here's my one bit of insight on that--although I'm not sure how insightful it really is: We aren't unified with other bodies and then unified with God. Our union with others comes by way of our union with God. In other words, God draws each of us into his nature and in this way we each become one with him and with others. So it has to be a union that isn't the total annihilation of differentiation. But this makes sense, since the Father was one with Jesus the man. There was unity there, but also differentiation.

BTW, when I say it makes sense, I don't mean to suggest that I completely understand it. Only that we know it is possible.

What do you think? Could it be the fumes from the bathroom repair killing my few functioning brain cells, or does this seem like it's at least pointing in the right direction?

Akoue.
Your point about the Transfiguration is well taken.
And yes I do believe that we were created "a little less than the angels" but that will change when we become one with God in heaven.
We will be still human to some extent but also in glorified bodies as Jesus had after he rose from the dead and ascended into the "clouds" of heaven.
As I understand it back in the days of those who wrote Holy Scripture the clouds were the beginnings or entry into heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I totally get where you're coming from. You're right, resurrection of the body means that theosis won't be just a spiritual union of souls but one of bodies as well. Here's my one bit of insight on that--although I'm not sure how insightful it really is: We aren't unified with other bodies and then unified with God. Our union with others comes by way of our union with God. In other words, God draws each of us into his nature and in this way we each become one with him and with others. So it has to be a union that isn't the total annihilation of differentiation. But this makes sense, since the Father was one with Jesus the man. There was unity there, but also differentiation.

BTW, when I say it makes sense, I don't mean to suggest that I completely understand it. Only that we know it is possible.

What do you think? Could it be the fumes from the bathroom repair killing my few functioning brain cells, or does this seem like it's at least pointing in the right direction?

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My head hurts!

Seriously, I've got to hit the sack. I'll think this over. Don't take me wrong, I conceptualize these things in a way I can visualize, idealize or calculate – I just 'work' in this way. However, as all things are possible with God, I wouldn't be at all surprised, when I walk to the Pearly Gates, in my body, ring the bell only to be told that bodies have gone out of style. It's the JoeT luck!

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

My head hurts!

Seriously, I’ve got to hit the sack. I’ll think this over. Don’t take me wrong, I conceptualize these things in a way I can visualize, idealize or calculate – I just 'work' in this way. However, as all things are possible with God, I wouldn’t be at all surprised, when I walk to the Pearly Gates, in my body, ring the bell and was told that bodies have gone out of style. It’s the JoeT luck!

JoeT

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Sweet dreams. I hope I don't give you nightmares.

Or... after the plumbing cracks... Yeah, I kind of do hope I give you nightmares!

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Sweet dreams. I hope I don't give you nightmares.

Or... after the plumbing cracks... Yeah, I kind of do hope I give you nightmares!

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Well, If I dream about how good a plumber you are - it'll forsure be a nightmare!! Water on the floor... broken faucets... damaged walls… waterlogged foundations…

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Well, If I dream about how good a plumber you are - it'll forsure be a nightmare!!! Water on the floor... broken faucets...damaged walls… waterlogged foundations…

JoeT

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Hey, I'm still here am I not? That's got to count for something.

Just don't ask me how many lives I shaved off the cats. I think the dog was rooting for a solid eight apiece.

Joe and Akoue.
You guys are hilarious.
It's also my bed time but...
I do want to mention that Akoue's thoughts on our glorified bodies becoming one with God does make sense to me.
One in spirit and one in body as Jesus is with the Father and the Holy Spirit seems to be the example Jesus has set for us.
Peace and kindness and good night with sweet dreams of heaven,
Fred

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue,
Thanks for the reddie information.
I do think that to be "theosis" with God is to become one with Him as Jesus so prayed.
I also thank Rickj for his help to me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred,
Do you remember the conversation we had about a month ago?

NOW, I understand why you have never "rated" any posts. Instead, you just started new a
Post that said I agree or disagree.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

The little red disagree box that comes up when someone rates an answer and disagrees. It seems Tom likes to give them out not for factually incorrect responses--as the site rules stipulate--but when he just doesn't like what someone says.

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I give them out for factually incorrect responses, not like the one that you gave me. Divinization means to deify, or to make men gods or God (as the CCC says).

This is, of course, not scriptural.