... noone except those who are truly led by God's Holy Spirit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patriarch

Again, pray only to the Father of Jesus, God, and not to Jesus. Jesus never told anyone to pray to himself. Listen to Jesus and not men on earth. Jesus says pray to his Heavenly Father God.----Matthew 6:9, John 20:17 Jesus also prayed to God--John 11:41

---

Of course, this involves Jesus' two natures, divine and human. You apparently reject the divine. Do you call yourself a Christian? Or something else?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Of course, this involves Jesus' two natures, divine and human. You apparently reject the divine. Do you call yourself a Christian? or something else?

---

Though I agree that Jesus is divine and was human, it still does not change the fact that some "humans" who call themselves "christian" and yet fail to listen to Christ but only to men. Christ never told anyone to pray to him. He says pray to the person he prays to. Being Christian means being a follower of Christ. Since Christ never prayed to himself, christians in imitation of Christ pray to God only. It is the Devil who wants you to disregard what Jesus says.

Also I do not reject his divinity but keep it in proper perspective. He is only second in command. God is first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patriarch

Though I agree that Jesus is divine and was human, it still does not change the fact that some "humans" who call themselves "christian" and yet fail to listen to Christ but only to men. Christ never told anyone to pray to him. He says pray to the person he prays to. Being Christian means being a follower of Christ. Since Christ never prayed to himself, christians in imitation of Christ pray to God only. It is the Devil who wants you to disregard what Jesus says.

Also I do not reject his divinity but keep it in proper perspective. He is only second in command. God is first.

---

Independent Baptist?

I've never heard of a Christian who rejected the Trinity. That's why I'm curious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Independent Baptist?

I've never heard of a Christian who rejected the Trinity. That's why I'm curious.

---

I am a true Christian. I listen to what the Bible says over a dogmatic philosophical traditional teaching that has no basis in scripture. The belief in a triune god dates back to ancient, pre-christian times. Christ was not believed to be part of a trinity till after the second century. His followers never thought him to be God on earth nor God period. The true christian religion suffered apostacy about the 3rd or 4th century. Constantine, a pagan ruler declared Christianity a state religion and at the council of Nicea declared Christ to be God for the first time, which of course has no basis in the Bible. Many so called Christian religions formed from the original one and taught doctrine mixed with pagan beliefs to attract pagans, for increased membership, to their apostatized form of Christianity. The doctrine of the trinity has been taught to the masses ever since. Before one claims belief in something it should be well known first. Research can give one knowledge of what one worships. I am a Christian who believes what the first century Christians believed. Most so-called "Christian" religions are a deviation from the true teachings of the Bible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patriarch

His followers never thought him to be God on earth nor God period.

---

Then how do you explain frequent statements by Jesus' disciples when they referred to Jesus as God, such as Thomas's "My Lord and my God"?

Are you in a church body? What does it call itself? How is the Bible interpreted?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Independent Baptist?

I've never heard of a Christian who rejected the Trinity. That's why I'm curious.

---

In short, I am a Christian who believes what the first century Christians taught, despite how I might have felt or what men may say. I respect all people and their right to believe whatever they wish but I am under obligation to share the truth with all. There are many false prophets in the world and some in sheeps covering. Also the devil's ministers keep transforming themselves as ministers of righteousness---2 Corinthians 11:13-15

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Then how do you explain frequent statements by Jesus' disciples when they referred to Jesus as God, such as Thomas's "My Lord and my God"?

This was simply an ecstatic reaction of astonishment before the Lord Jesus. Just because someone says "my God" before someone it does not in itself mean that they are calling that person God. People use this expression quite often today. Jesus disciples knew him to be "the Son of the living God."--Matthew 16:15,16

Are you in a church body? What does it call itself?

Yes, I belong to "The Way".--Acts 9:2, 19:9,23, 22:4, 24:22

How is the Bible interpreted?

---

The Bible interprets itself when we pray for God's guidance by holy spirit as we study and meditate upon it systematically and regularly.--Genesis 40:8

Patriarch, I understand where you're coming from. It hard to grasp what is god, because he's spirit. I really don't even try, I just attempt to understand the bible, and pay attention to the spirit's promptings within myself. Once we get to a certain point, we can be like jesus said, that we can be one with him, like he's one with the father, so that we'll know he loves us as much as he loves jesus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cogs

patriarch, i understand where you're coming from. it hard to grasp what is god, because he's spirit. i really don't even try, i just attempt to understand the bible, and pay attention to the spirit's promptings within myself. once we get to a certain point, we can be like jesus said, that we can be one with him, like he's one with the father, so that we'll know he loves us as much as he loves jesus.

---

I appreciate your kind expressions. And that is why we are all here, for understanding.

[QUOTE=Wondergirl;1297391]Then how do you explain frequent statements by Jesus' disciples when they referred to Jesus as God, such as Thomas's "My Lord and my God"?

By the way the disciples never once called Jesus God. But they did call him the Son of God. Even a pagan soldier, upon Jesus death, called him "the Son of God",--Matthew 27:54 Thus showing or indicating what was being taught or said about Christ. Not that he was God but that he was the Son of God.

Patriarch, you're welcome. I'm interested in what you have to say, because I see a working of god on earth through his holy spirit. This is internal, and jesus was flesh as we are, and I wonder if the same spirit didn't work the same way in jesus. These questions, I believe, will lead to a conclusion that is at the heart of being a christian, mainly because of jesus' sinlessness. Also, I know that pagan apostacy was already in the early church, so I can accept the explanation of the added ideas to the bible.

Jesus. These questions, I believe, will lead to a conclusion that is at the heart of being a christian, mainly because of jesus' sinlessness.

The heart of being Christian as read in the Bible is displaying faith in Christ and his teachings and commands. Be his follower.--Matthew 11:28-30, 16:24, 1Pe 2:21

Thanks for the company and exchange of views. To all a good night.:)

I though they were different aspects of each other.
Like people
You have your body, spirit and soul
God is the soul
Jesus is the body (embodiement of God)
Holy Spirit-well you can figure it out
That is how I have always thought of the Trinity as one-

Are you in a church body? What does it call itself? How is the Bible interpreted?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I belong to "The Way".--Acts 9:2, 19:9,23, 22:4, 24:22

How is the Bible interpreted?

The Bible interprets itself when we pray for God's guidance by holy spirit as we study and meditate upon it systematically and regularly.--Genesis 40:8

Quote:

---

carla123 agrees: Oh! I have been praying to Jesus all along.. Was I doing a big mistake then?

---

No. Fr_Chuck is correct. That is the way that Jesus taught us to pray.

However, we also pray directly to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.

In addition, if you are Catholic, you may pray to the Saints for intercession before God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Carla123,

Foremost, there no where is the bible that says "The Son and the Father are one and the same".

I believe we can pray to either of them or both of them.

We can somehow explain this using 2 perspective--human and biblical.

Human Perspective:
Assume that you are a good royalty (a queen or king) who has a son and many servants, are you going to get jealous to your son if the peasants are requesting something from him or giving him praise?

Biblical Perspective:
1) God never prohibit us to pray to Jesus.
2) God exalted Jesus so that every knee shall bow before Him. (Phil 2:9-10)
3) Jesus encouraged the apostles to pray to the Father in His (Jesus) name. Jesus is our ONLY mediator to the Father. (John 15:16; I Tim 2:5)
4) There's nothing wrong with having two Lords. (Psalm 110:1)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

In addition, if you are Catholic, you may pray to the Saints for intercession before God.

---

Scripture prohibits communication with the dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Criado

Carla123,

Foremost, there no where is the bible that says "The Son and the Father are one and the same".

---

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.