Ask Me Help Desk - Weeping Statues and other icons that Cry Blood

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Correct. Despise not prophecies.

But that has nothing to do with the topic.

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Sure it is. Mary is the only woman who gave birth to Christ.

That is your private interpretation.

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Since Mary gave birth to Christ and the Church gives birth to Christians in Baptism.

The second half of that sentence is not Biblical.

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Sure it is. It is proof that the Catholic Church is perfectly consistent with Scripture on the handling of prophecy.

That is circular reasoning. Because you accept your denomination's private interpretation, you therefore believe that your denomination's private interpretation is consistent with your denomination's private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Therefore when God provides the sign of the Virgin Mary as described in Scripture:
Apocalypse 12 1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

The Church does not despise this prophecy but tests it and if it is good, holds on to it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Not the Virgin Mary.. Chapter 12 of Revelation is descriptive to the longest period of time written in one single chapter. No other chapter in the bible does this. It is a chapter of [inserted reference] from the beginning first age through the present age of salvation.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

1. The great wonder in heaven is a "sign"
2. The woman is (mother Israel) or a "believer"
3. The sun, moon, star, is the zodiac that will offer signs to the believer and their path to walk, and keep in mind to watch (signs foretold of in Genesis 1:14)

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The believer being born here on earth of woman

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

1. another sign
2. a red dragon is a deceiver, satan
3. again with signs of what? satan

On earth there is "Good" and there is "bad". From the beginning of creation as children of God, we have been offered signs from heaven. And we are fore told of certainty in each sign which to follow that is written and which are not to be followed also written. We are within the generation of the fig tree.

"The Good"

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.

Matthew 13: 37-38 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The bad, sons of Cain

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Matthew 13: 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

From the Beginning Good and bad

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Not the Virgin Mary.. Chapter 12 of Revelation is descriptive to the longest period of time written in one single chapter. No other chapter in the bible does this. It is a chapter of [inserted reference] from the beginning first age through the present age of salvation.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

1. The great wonder in heaven is a "sign"
2. The woman is (mother Israel) or a "believer"
3. The sun, moon, star, is the zodiac that will offer signs to the believer and their path to walk, and keep in mind to watch (signs foretold of in Genesis 1:14)

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The believer being born here on earth of woman

The believer being born? That is one way to look at that. But, the more explicit understanding is that this is Jesus Christ:

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

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Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

1. another sign
2. a red dragon is a deceiver, satan
3. again with signs of what? satan

On earth there is "Good" and there is "bad". From the beginning of creation as children of God, we have been offered signs from heaven. And we are fore told of certainty in each sign which to follow that is written and which are not to be followed also written. We are within the generation of the fig tree.

Correct. The dragon is Satan.

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"The Good"

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.

Matthew 13: 37-38 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The bad, sons of Cain

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Matthew 13: 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

From the Beginning Good and bad

All of those are true verses from Scripture. None of them has anything to do with the fact that the woman portrayed in Rev. 12 Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

refer: Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The believer being born? That is one way to look at that. But, the more explicit understanding is that this is Jesus Christ:

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

Man child= a son

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

nations = the nations
with a rod

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Revelation 2:9 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

All of those are true verses from Scripture. None of them has anything to do with the fact that the woman portrayed in Rev. 12 Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It is a matter of choice, and interpretation. I can refer other verses within scripture which confirm what I have shown you for an interpretation, and whom I follow. The Spirit leads today if an individual opens the ear to hear, doing the Will of God on earth as it is in heaven.

Finally, I have lost the thread of this debate. Are we discussing the Virgin Mary being the Mother of Jesus Christ?
If we are, then we probably do not believe in Jesus Christ's divinity (as the FATHER'S SON) either.
And if we do not, then we are NOT Christians! As simply as that!

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

Finally, I have lost the thread of this debate. Are we discussing the Virgin Mary being the Mother of Jesus Christ?
If we are, then we probably do not believe in Jesus Christ's divinity (as the FATHER'S SON) either.
And if we do not, then we are NOT Christians! As simply as that!

I think that this is not so much a case of trying to argue whether Mary is the mother of Jesus, but De Maria is trying to argue a specific passage in Reveleation as being prophetic of Mary giving birth to Jesus even though, for one thing, the timing is all wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I think that this is not so much a case of trying to argue whether or not Mary is the mother of Jesus, but De Maria is trying to argue a specific passage in Reveleation as being prophetic of Mary giving birth to Jesus even though, for one thing, the timing is all wrong.

St. John's Revelation CANNOT be prophetic regarding anything in connection with Jesus or His Mother because it was written AFTER Jesus' death in the Cross. The only texts that might eventually be considered prophetic are those of the Old Testament which were, of course, written much before Jesus or Mary.

Still, my point was not that. It rather was on the usefulness of such type of debate, for while debatable whatever conclusion reached nothing can be changed.:):)