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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Au contraire! God gave each person a conscience.

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I have a conscience yet I don't read the bible or go to church; same with my wife and kids. Weird.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

My point exactly. Direct personal knowledge is the primary source. Placing the Bible above it is idolatry.

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Here is the issue with that. That verse did not say that direct personal knowledge is primary. What is says is that the truth of God is seen in all creation, and some will deny His existence. It is an indicator of the existence of God, but neither the sole or primary source. The Bible is God's word and is the primary source.

The difference between "personal knowledge" and what scripture says is that many people may think that they know something based upon personal experience and can come up with all sorts of strange ideas because they make assumptions and fail to validate them. This scripture is quite specific on what scripture reveals and that revelation is to lead us to seek out the true God. And where do you find out about the true God? In the Bible.

It is worship of the creation rather than the creator which is idolatry, not following His word as He commanded us to do.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I have a conscience yet I don't read the bible or go to church; same with my wife and kids. Weird.

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And God has already revealed Himself to you via your conscience. And what happens inside your head and heart when you are hiking around in the great outdoors or see a beautiful sunset or watch a litter of puppies (or your own child) being born?

Nah, I believe your parents instill what you call a conscience by their disciplining method. It's basically your view of right and wrong as experienced during those important developmental years from 0 - 5. It's easy to see: look at a "bad" kid then look at his home life - there is a direct connection, regardless of religious presence in the child's life.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Nah, I believe your parents instill what you call a conscience by their disciplining method. It's basically your view of right and wrong as experienced during those important developmental years from 0 - 5. It's easy to see: look at a "bad" kid then look at his home life - there is a direct connection, regardless of religious presence in the child's life.

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Not necessarily. And I'm not talking about any religious influence. There are studies that show conscience is inborn, not gotten from parents, but is pre-parental.

I know "bad" kids who have wonderful parents, and I know "good" kids who have miserable parents. Now what?

I do also believe that kids are born with basic goodness as a blank slate, they have to to survive. As per your observations about the good/bad you never fully know what goes on in someone else's home when you're not there all the time.

I believe a great many people use hell to scare people to God because they don't understand the real concept of hell and that it is the relationship with God that needs to be taught. Too many people don't understand it's really all about our falling out of relationship and our reconciling a relationship with Him.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The Bible is God's word and is the primary source.

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Not to me, it isn't. But if it is to you, I'm OK with that.

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Originally Posted by tawnynkids

I believe a great many people use hell to scare people to God because they don't understand the real concept of hell and that it is the relationship with God that needs to be taught. Too many people don't understand it's really all about our falling out of relationship and our reconciling a relationship with Him.

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It is about sin and the cross.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It is about sin and the cross.

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Sin and the work on the cross is the beginning of reconciling the relationship. We fell from relationship because of sin, we are reconciled through Christ and the work on the cross.

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Originally Posted by tawnynkids

Sin and the work on the cross is the beginning of reconciling the relationship. We fell from relationship because of sin, we are reconciled through Christ and the work on the cross.

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Indeed! But it is only those who choose to receive the sacrifice on the cross who are reconciled. The rest have chosen the path to hell because of their sin.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Indeed! But it is only those who choose to receive the sacrifice on the cross who are reconciled. The rest have chosen the path to hell because of their sin.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

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The ones who choose not to believe are indeed choosing not to believe and have a relationship and will spend eternity in hell. But what does that have to do with how or why people are "taught to love God by fearing hell"?

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Originally Posted by tawnynkids

The ones who choose not to believe are indeed choosing not to believe and have a relationship and will spend eternity in hell. But what does that have to do with how or why people are "taught to love God by fearing hell"?

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Hell is one dimension of truth that we cannot nor should not ignore. But it is not the sole or primary reason that we should use for teaching people about God. Other the other hand, if we leave out any part of the gospel, then we have not given them the full gospel.

If we want people to love God, we have to tell them the full story. The story is not complete with giving the story of how God so loved us that even after we chose hell, that He chose to come to earth manifest as a man in order that He might take the penalty for us, even for those who were pounding the nails in His hands, so that we might have the opportunity to be reconciled to Him.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But it is only those who choose to receive the sacrifice on the cross who are reconciled.

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Nope, they don't choose to believe. The only power they have is to say no. If there is belief, it is because the Holy Spirit has already been at work in them.

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith." (Luther)

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Spirit." I Cor. 12:3.

"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor. 4:6.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Nope, they don't choose to believe. The only power they have is to say no. If there is belief, it is because the Holy Spirit has already been at work in them.

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith." (Luther)

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Spirit." I Cor. 12:3.

"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor. 4:6.

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That states that it is the work of the Holy Spirit drawing us to God, but that does not say how we became estranged from God to begin with.

It is sin which separates us from God and who has sinned?

Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV

Every person has sinned. That was their doing. They chose to turn from God.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Nope, they don't choose to believe. The only power they have is to say no. If there is belief, it is because the Holy Spirit has already been at work in them.

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith." (Luther)

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Spirit." I Cor. 12:3.

"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor. 4:6.

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Calvinist?

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Originally Posted by tawnynkids

Calvinist?

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And I quoted Luther? Surely you jest.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Hell is one dimension of truth that we cannot nor should not ignore. But it is not the sole or primary reason that we should use for teaching people about God. Other the other hand, if we leave out any part of the gospel, then we have not given them the full gospel.

If we want people to love God, we have to tell them the full story. The story is not complete with giving the story of how God so loved us that even after we chose hell, that He chose to come to earth manifest as a man in order that He might take the penalty for us, even for those who were pounding the nails in His hands, so that we might have the opportunity to be reconciled to Him.

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Did you some how think I was disagreeing that hell was a part of the whole thing? I wasn't, I think we are on the same page.

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Originally Posted by tawnynkids

Did you some how think I was disagreeing that hell was a part of the whole thing? I wasn't, I think we are on the same page.

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No, I did not think that you were disagreeing - I was just adding some additional input.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And I quoted Luther? Surely you jest.

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No, I don't. Lots of Calvinists do quote Luther actually. Your statement that it isn't up to us to believe hints at Calvinism. If I am wrong forgive me. I was just wondering.