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Originally Posted by michealb

So bigfoot, aliens, lockness monster, champ, lizardmen and jersey devil all exist because there is more eye witness testimony for those than for Jesus.

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Wrong on both counts.

1. The eyewitness testimony of these creatures has not been proven beyond doubt. The claims are shadowy and the statements sketchy. The quality of the testimony is nowhere near the quality of the testimony in support of Jesus' existence.

2. And although the testimony for these creatures is not of great quality, that still does not disprove their existence.

Also, you are again creating straw men, I didn't say that these creatures existed.

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You missed major points in the article that explained why those eye witness accounts aren't good ones.

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You are here, make the arguments yourself. I could also post all kinds of articles for you to read to refute everything you say. But I'm polite enough to produce my arguments here.

Unless of course you don't really have any arguments.

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Eye witness accounts have to have other evidence in support of them or they are bunk.

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Not when you have multiple credible eyewitnesses of good moral character. And in regards to the Gospels, there is a great deal of evidence to support their testimonies besides their testimonies.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by michealb

Actually no you can't. The problem with Jesus is there are no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts and all the writings about him were done 30 to 40 years after his death during a time when most men only lived into there 30s.

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Many artifacts remain but they are discounted by skeptics. The Shroud of Turin, the Headpiece, His birthplace, His tomb, the nails and the crown of thorns and many other artifacts.

Then there is the Church He established and the teaching He taught, the communities which sprang up in response to His teachings.

So, there's quite a bit, you just don't believe it.

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Then there are the multiple stories that Jesus's live seemed to be plagiarized of.

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You seem to be quite a believer in this Horus. And you claim to be a reasonable person who believes things only when they are proven. Please provide details which we can confirm. When was this story first written and on which document? If I remember correctly, the stories of Horus which correspond with Jesus actually date after the advent of Jesus. None of those things which can be compared to Jesus actually exist in the original literature.:

That's quite a list, but let's make it simple to start: A good number -- at least half -- are so far as I have seen bogus. There has not been a shred of evidence for many of these in any book of Egyptian religion I have thus far consulted. So as Clara Peller used to say, Where's the beef? Where's the original Egyptian lit that backs this up? Christ-Mythers: we do not want to hear from Gerald Massey or Godfrey Higgins; we want the original citation from Egyptian records. If I don't hear from any of you within a year (and I know that they check in on this site, because I hear from them), I'll assume no response is possible and go back to more copycat projects. In some cases below we will draw upon Glenn Miller's copycat article where he has done some previous work.
Osiris. Horus. Jesus. Not Triplets!

So, unless you can provide the original details, the following remains unproven:

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For instance the story of Horus.
Horus and the Father as one
Horus, the Father seen in the Son
Horus, light of the world, represented by the symbolical eye, the sign of salvation.
Horus served the way, the truth, the life by name and in person
Horus baptized with water by Anup (Jesus baptized with water by John)
Horus the Good Shepherd
Horus as the Lamb (Jesus as the Lamb)
Horus as the Lion (Jesus as the Lion)
Horus identified with the Tat Cross (Jesus with the cross)
The trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, Ra the Holy Spirit
Horus the avenger (Jesus who brings the sword)
Horus the afflicted one
Horus as life eternal
Twelve followers of Horus as Har-Khutti (Jesus' 12 disciples)

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None of that is true. Horus is simply the half falcon half human god of Egypt. No corollaries with Jesus.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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firmbeliever agrees: I believe the trinity and demi god status of Jesus(alaihi salaam)maybe borrowed concepts from mythology since his ascension to Heaven!
Rate this Answer

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Are you throwing down the gauntlet my friend? Your belief doesn't qualify as evidence unless you can prove it.

Now if we consider that Mohammed never provided anything but hearsay to support his contention that an Angel had appeared to him. In addition, we also find that Mohammed actually did borrow a great deal of mythology from the neighboring tribes for his beliefs. Example, God's she camel.

In fact, he provided less than hearsay. He never proved that he simply didn't concoct imaginative tales which he later passed on as truths.

Lets compare that to the fact that Jesus has four eyewitnesses of good moral character who documented what He did, said and how He lived for a period of three years.

The comparison is one sided. Mohammed is the source of all the stories in the Quran. No one else saw the Angel or heard the Angel's voice. And Mohammed never proved his mission from God by providing miracles to support his claims.

If Mohammed would present his claims, even in Islamic court today, he would be summarily thrown out.

So, anytime you want to enter a friendly debate concerning the quality of evidence for Islam vs Christianity, I am ready and waiting. And I am certain, so are many of my Christian confreres.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Why do you have to debate evryone to death? Why not live and let live? Let people have their own beliefs.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Why do you have to debate evryone to death? Why not live and let live? Let people have their own beliefs.

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That question from you? I think the pot has just called the kettle black.

Sincerely,

De Maria

How about you answer it.

I agree with De Maria on that last post. I frequent religious disscussions and it seems there are a few people that constantly turn up trying to dispel God and comment on how sensitive beleivers are when in truth they operate exactly the same.

Again with this one!! Workerbee - It's almost as if your original question contains many points and "facts" that came from a certain movie that was discussed on this site not so long ago , hmmmmmm?? What you may wish to know is that another movie was in response to the one you seem to be pawning off without mentioning, that proved that what you are saying about birthdates and other God's is incorrect. Little less typing and a little more watching maybe in order for you. Also, seems to me you start many a thread like this, also seems you have no real interest in learning anything but rather just trying to get some type of point across, or maybe your bored.

As for a newer basher that refers to us simple minded belivers as "these people". Your article is very compelling indeed, many a time I was shocked and had never seen such well written arguments against Jesus towhich of course you caould never find a rebuttal in all the world. However, I did find the location interesting and actually comical, please allow me:

Did Jesus exist?

I can post all kinds of articles from all kinds of Jesus loving web-sites just as you can (and have) from your well-trusted sites.

Oh these non-beleiving people:)

Unfortunetly, as Karma pointed out earlier, the humor of that last line may be lost on some:(

Sorry the link did not come up and thus the post is not as effective. The name of the website is nobeleifs. Something. Point still stands.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

How about you answer it.

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Sure. When I first came on this board, it was to simply answer Christian questions for people seeking to know about Christ. I debate on many boards and I thought this would be a good change of pace. Do you remember the first words you addressed to me?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Sorry deMaria, you are wrong on many counts.

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You didn't know what you got into:

This was my response:

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Wow! I diddn't know this was a debate forum, but that is wonderful!

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So, NK, I can thank you for showing me that I can do what I love to do on this board.

Anyway, I note that you had no qualms about debating before, so why are you now questioning me in accusatory tone (i.e. debate evryone to death?)

Sincerely,

De Maria

HEY!! Here is a thought...

If everyone believed exactly the same way in exactly the same thing and there was no room for doubt or question wouldn't that be considered a cult?

AND FURTHERMORE>>> HOW EXTREMELY BORING WOULD THAT BE!!

Who cares who is wrong or right! Who cares which way is better! Someone asked a question and a few people answered what they thought the answer is, now those people are being attacked for thinking that way.

As far as I am concerned we are here and have brains and hearts to feel and think however the hell we want to think or feel. If I want to worship cookie monster then I can!! And you shouldn't look down upon me for that just because you don't. Because you know what!! When yours or my final hour comes you will know what happens when you die, and I will know what happens when I die. And if it turns out that I don't get to go to chocolate chip hill and eat macadamia nut cookies for eternity BIG FREAKIN DEAL!! Because you won't be there either!!

K I'm done. Have fun everyone!! This site is such an awesome stress reliever for me!! :)

So it's Needkarma is responsible for the actions of DeMaria interesting and here I thought we we're all responsible for our own actions.

BMI,

I didn't hide where that article came from it was simply a well written article. I can post this one if you like from religioustolerance org.
Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God
The information is basically the same.

Again though I contend that it doesn't matter because regardless of how concrete the evidence is against Jesus being a real person. The answer will be that those are works of the devil and there for don't count. I can't debate that. When you fill in gaps with super natural beings all evidence become worthless.

And if all of you agreed that your religion is faith and kept it to yourselves I really wouldn't care what you said.

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Originally Posted by michealb

So it's Needkarma is responsible for the actions of DeMaria interesting and here I thought we we're all responsible for our own actions.

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There you go again twisting my words.

I never accused NK of being responsible for what I say. However NK did open my eyes to the fact that debate is permitted on this forum.

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BMI,

I didn't hide where that article came from it was simply a well written article. I can post this one if you like from religioustolerance org.
Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God
The information is basically the same.

Again though I contend that it doesn't matter because regardless of how concrete the evidence is against Jesus being a real person. The answer will be that those are works of the devil and there for don't count. I can't debate that. When you fill in gaps with super natural beings all evidence become worthless.

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As I said, all those supposed parallels date after the advent of Jesus. Therefore, it is Horus' myth writers who plagiarized the Gospels.

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And if all of you agreed that your religion is faith and kept it to yourselves I really wouldn't care what you said.

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And if all of you atheists agreed that your denial of religion is just your unfounded opinion and preference, I wouldn't care what you said either. But as long as you keep insisting that your opinions are facts, I'll keep proving you wrong.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I didn't accuse you of hiding it, rather I was pointing out where you got it from.

As for what you perceive we can not explain about Jesus being divine or that "concrete evidence" (which I suppose you feel you have included by posting the article) will be overlooked by beleivers is false and inaccurate to say the least.

I have seen many a person here claim science and the "proof" it provides against the existence of God, it makes me laugh and wonder who is guilty of believing fairytales more, the beleiver or the non.

What evidence do you have that God does NOT EXIST!! Any of you non-beleivers may feel free to answer the question. Isn't it science that delivers the Big Bang Theory yet cannot explain what happened at T=0. I guess that's as far as your argument can take you, beleivers have much more than that to provide us with belief. Intelligent deseign (which is one of the most compelling reasons and insights into the whole matter in which no one proponent has ever been able to rebuke otherthan getting caught up with semantics), aruguments from scrpture, arguments from beauty, all (well most) the great thinkers provided answers from FEELING and LOGIC that science has remained silent about. Sheesh, man and science, science hasnot even discovered the myseteries of Planet Earth let alone whether it can test for a supreme being that evidently does not wish to be found in a physical sense.

Ahhh, yet you speak of proof and concrete evidence, please good sir!!

Go to the following link and email Pastor Vugteveen. That is exactly what last Sunday was all about. He quoted sources other than the Bible. I hope it eases your mind. The River Church - Allegan, Michigan

We both know that it is almost impossible to disprove a negatave. Especially a negative such as god because he exists between the gaps of our existing knowledge and no matter how small those gaps get they will always be large enough for god to fit within them.

I don't have any evidence against aliens either but I'm still pretty certain that they aren't abducting people in trailer parks. I admit I could be wrong but until more evidence comes out I'm still going to say it's not happening.

By the way DeMaria the stories of Horus pre-date the story of Jesus as do the stories of Hercules and Dionysus.

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Originally Posted by michealb

We both know that it is almost impossible to disprove a negatave.

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You have just admitted that you can't prove your belief.

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Especially a negative such as god

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God is not a negative. Your belief that God does not exist is a negative.

You might want to study logic and English syntax.

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because he exists between the gaps of our existing knowledge

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That is your characterization and in a round about way your capitulation to the fact that God does exist.

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and no matter how small those gaps get they will always be large enough for god to fit within them.

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Again, in a round about way, you have understood God. If you go to the highest heights, He is there. If you go to the greatest depths, He is there also.

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I don't have any evidence against aliens either but I'm still pretty certain that they aren't abducting people in trailer parks.

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As for me, I'm an agnostic about the existence of aliens. I don't claim to know that the people who claim to have seen aliens are lying or are in error or are in fact accurate. When they provide evidence that is convincing to me, I'll believe. Or when someone provides evidence which convinces me that aliens do not exist, I'll believe them.

The evidence for God's existence has been shown me and convinced me.

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I admit I could be wrong but until more evidence comes out I'm still going to say it's not happening.

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That's where you and I differ. If I know something is true, then I say it is. If I don't know whether it is true, I don't go around saying that it isn't.

As you have admitted above, even though you can't prove and don't know whether aliens exist, you will continue to claim they don't.

Am I the only one to whom that attitude sounds strange and illogical?

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By the way DeMaria the stories of Horus pre-date the story of Jesus as do the stories of Hercules and Dionysus.

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Not the elements of the Horus stories which seem to parallel the life of Jesus.

And the Hercules and Dionysus myths resemble Jesus' life only on the surface. When you delve into the details, they are completely different.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Most of you are attempting to refute the assertions of workerbee intellectually and that won't work UNLESS (she ?) is willing to seriously study how the books in the Bible came to be and study the prophecies written years before their literal fulfillment. I doubt that is going to happen. Relationship with Jesus can be experienced. I have, as have billions of people since His time and currently.

The man with the experience is never at the mercy of the man with the argument.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You have just admitted that you can't prove your belief.

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This has been said before and so what. I can't disprove a lot of things doesn't make them real.

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As for me, I'm an agnostic about the existence of aliens. I don't claim to know that the people who claim to have seen aliens are lying or are in error or are in fact accurate. When they provide evidence that is convincing to me, I'll believe. Or when someone provides evidence which convinces me that aliens do not exist, I'll believe them.

The evidence for God's existence has been shown me and convinced me.

That's where you and I differ. If I know something is true, then I say it is. If I don't know whether it is true, I don't go around saying that it isn't.

As you have admitted above, even though you can't prove and don't know whether aliens exist, you will continue to claim they don't.

Am I the only one to whom that attitude sounds strange and illogical?

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Apparently. If it was just a flat question of is there a possibility that god of some sort exists. Then I would tell you honestly I can't know for certain. Just because you can't prove something doesn't exist doesn't means you should live your life like it exists. You haven't tried to alien proof your room have you? You don't have yourself cat scanned on a regular basis to search for alien devices do you? You have lobbied the government to protect us from aliens have you? If you haven't done those thing you are living your life as atheistic towards aliens.

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Originally Posted by michealb

We both know that it is almost impossible to disprove a negatave. Especially a negative such as god because he exists between the gaps of our existing knowledge and no matter how small those gaps get they will always be large enough for god to fit within them.

I don't have any evidence against aliens either but I'm still pretty certain that they aren't abducting people in trailer parks. I admit I could be wrong but until more evidence comes out I'm still going to say it's not happening.

By the way DeMaria the stories of Horus pre-date the story of Jesus as do the stories of Hercules and Dionysus.

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FAITH is the most important, but as science discovers more and mopre about the complexity of life and even the individual cell, the "gaps" are actually increasing.

Explain life from non-life?

Explain the origin of any organism's genome?

Explain why more and more medical diseases are due to mutations, one of the purported mechanism of evolution.

But God is bigger than science, He created everything we observe, the laws of science that we observe.


Access : : Nature


I'm not as smart as a physicist but see what they believe in :D Talk about proving a negative!

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Originally Posted by michealb

This has been said before and so what. I can't disprove a lot of things doesn't make them real.

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Doesn't make them not real either. Yet as you admitted, you will argue that it does make them "not real".

But you probably don't understand what you admitted about your behavior. You admitted that you don't care about the evidence. It doesn't matter that you can't prove something is true, you will claim it is false anyway.

To me that sounds unethical.

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Apparently. If it was just a flat question of is there a possibility that god of some sort exists. Then I would tell you honestly I can't know for certain.

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But you just admitted that you will argue against it rather than admit that you don't know. And in fact, that admission is consistent with the way you've behaved on this forum. You claim not to know if God exists, but you argue that you know He doesn't exist.

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Just because you can't prove something doesn't exist doesn't means you should live your life like it exists.

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That depends on the importance of that something. If three or four of my neighbors say they've seen Big Foot in my backyard. And if I trust these neighbors and consider them of good moral character not prone to practical jokes, I think I would take extra precautions when I walk in my backyard even if I'm not certain that Big Foot exists.

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You haven't tried to alien proof your room have you? You don't have yourself cat scanned on a regular basis to search for alien devices do you? You have lobbied the government to protect us from aliens have you? If you haven't done those thing you are living your life as atheistic towards aliens.

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No one whom I trust has claimed to see aliens anywhere near my neighborhood. But if the evidence for hostile aliens is ever proved to my satisfaction, or if honest friends of mine ever tell me they've seen hostile aliens in our neighborhood, I'll be the first in line for each one of those.

Sincerely,

De Maria