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Originally Posted by Tj3
That passage is explained by Jesus himself and it is NOT speaking of water baptism.
It is very telling that Jesus was baptizing in the Ennon near Salim when He said this:
John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim; because there was much water there; and they came and were baptized.
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John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.
Except that Nicodemus came to Jesus while Jesus' disciples were baptizing the populace. That explains why Jesus gave a lesson on Baptism without even mentioning the word.
Note however, that Jesus does not equate the flesh and the water. This is a connection which you have made because you want to justify this belief.
Jesus distinguishes between the flesh and the Spirit. All men are born of water and flesh. But in order to be born again, one must be born of water and Spirit. The Water symbolizes the New Birth efficaciously. It is the sign which God has established to reveal the inward reality.
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Really? Where does scripture say that water baptism is efficacious?
Many places but especially in these words we are reviewing. Here is another:
Mark 16 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved:...
1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:...
Romans 6 4 For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.
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The argument is this. If you take the first half of the verse, it says “He who believes and is baptized is saved”, therefore believing and baptism are the essential requirements for baptism.
For salvation you mean. And I wouldn't use the word "the" in front of "essential" as there are other essential requirements, such as "perseverance to the end".
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For the believers in this doctrine, that is a slam-dunk argument. But is it? Let's look at this passage in context and let's see if it really says what they claim.
Ok
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First, it inappropriate to take a verse out of context,
I didn't.
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let alone cutting a verse in half
Just as I cut your phrases in half in order to get to the meat of the issue, it is correct to abbreviate a verse to highlight the point in question. You do understand that frequently, sentences carry more than one idea and assumption?
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and only looking at the first half of the verse. I could come up with a lot of very strange doctrines using that approach.
I'm sure you could. But I haven't. My interpretation is according to the interpretation of the ancient Church which goes back to the first century Fathers.
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Let me give an example:
Gen 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may
freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the
day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
NKJV
God says in this passage:
“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. If I did the same thing to this passage as is done in this argument in Mark 16:16 shown above, I would stop at the semi-colon and would read:
“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat“
Of course I have now change the meaning of the passage entirely and negated fully the message that God was giving to Adam and Eve. This is therefore a very dangerous approach and can significantly alter the meanings of many passages throughout scripture.
If done the way you did it, yes. But I haven't done so.
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If we look now at Mark 16:16 in its entirety, we read:
Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
NKJV
What do we know just from this verse alone:
1) If we believe and are baptized that we are saved.
2) If we do not believe, we are condemned (unsaved)
The interesting this is that this does NOT say that if we are not baptized that we are condemned.
Because without faith one can't please God. So if one is baptized although he doesn't believe, that will be a fruitless exercise. Lets break it down again.
1. If we believe and are baptized we are saved.
2. If we do not believe and yet are baptized, we are not saved.
3. If we do not believe and are not baptized and we are not saved.
4. If we believe and are not baptized, we won't be saved.
Our works are an expression of our faith. If a person claims to believe yet does not accept baptism then he actually does not believe.
James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
If a person is baptized although he does not believe, well we know that without faith it is impossible to please God so that would be a useless exercise.
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But it does say that is we do not believe that we are condemned. Why would that be omitted in the second half of the verse?
Because if one does not believe, one does not have faith and it is impossible to please God without faith. So it wouldn't matter if one were baptized.
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The truth of this conclusion just from a logical perspective can be seen by using the same logic syllogism as Mark 16:16 uses, only in a different context:
If I have a full time job and red hair, I get a paycheque. If do not have a job, I receive no paycheque.
Note that it is the paycheque which is critical. The red hair is incidental and yet this sentence is still logically valid. One may ask why baptism was even inserted in the first half of the verse if it adds nothing to the requirements for salvation.
It was inserted because it is critical. YOU don't want it to be there but it is. You are inserting your presuppositions into Scripture.
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I believe that it was to emphasize the importance of witnessing your faith and showing your desire to following Christ by being obedient and showing love for Him who dies on the cross for our salvation.
Then obey and you will be blessed. If Christ says "believe and be baptized" I will obey, won't you?
John 14 23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.
Sincerely,
De Maria
