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Originally Posted by Synnen

Wait wait wait... "God given right"?

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That is correct.

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YOUR god has rights in His church.

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Are you curtailing our freedom of speech? Do you claim the right to assert that God does not exist in our Public Schools and deny me the right to assert that God does exist?

Do you claim the right to live as though God does not exist in Public School and deny me the right to act as though God exists?

Do you claim the right to live according to your beliefs where ever you go and deny me the same right?

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MINE has rights in my Circle

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Yet I see atheists prominently asserting their claims in children's public school curricula.

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NEITHER has rights in a public school.

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That isn't the reality. The reality is that atheists and secular humanists have asserted themselves in Public School to the exclusion of other religions.

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If you want your kids to pray in school, send 'em to a private school. My tax dollars pay for education, not morality. Teach morals at home, please.

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The question of prayer in Public School is one thing. The question of teaching morals is another.

Morals are taught in Public School. There is no way you can be rid of moral teaching.

The question is whose morals are being taught? Are they Christian, Muslim, humanist or some other morals.

Luckily, the United States is founded on Christian principles which still dominate the moral teaching of the Public Schools. But atheists and humanists are trying to change that by making homosexuality, abortion, and other anti-Christian concepts part of the curricula.

But perhaps that is the answer. Perhaps we should all teach our children at home. It is now possible with the advent of the internet to teach children anything you want at home.

As for me, I bailed out of the Public Schools twenty years ago. I've graduated two children from our Catholic HomeSchool and I've got two in third and fifth grade respectively. It is the most wonderful experience to teach your own children and actually raise them up being your best friends.

I'll be writing more about Catholic Homeschooling on my website.
Catholic Homeschooling

It is still under construction, so bear with me:

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

That isn't the reality. The reality is that atheists and secular humanists have asserted themselves in Public School to the exclusion of other religions.

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The reality is an aim for neutrality i.e. not any religion or dogma to be endorsed by the school. It isn't that difficult to understand, it's part of the First Amendment (state-supported prayer amounts to the establishment of a religious practice and is therefore unconstitutional). No one is denying you your belief or your wish for silent prayer to yourself. God hears you and knows all that goes on in your head and He knows all your thoughts.

By the way there are limits to freedom of Speech, that whole screaming "Fire" in a crowded theater bit.

Synnen-"If you want your kids to pray in school, send 'em to a private school. My tax dollars pay for education, not morality. Teach morals at home, please. "

SDont forget that christians are also paying tax dollars so it is not only your tax dollars.FYI, there are more Christians paying their tax dollars than there are Atheist towards most public schools. People should be free to practice their beliefs no matter where they are.
I don't think Christians should have to pay for Private school just to be able to practice what they believe, other wise they should also suspend kids who try to push athiesim on other kids too. It's the same thing but there is a double standard.

I am a bit confused by some of these posts. Soldout & DeMaria, in response to Kelly's original question are your personal positions that in the U.S. there should be a specified time set aside for prayers in school for Christian based religions, all religions, or are you simply stating that children should be allowed to say Grace before a meal, or have a moment of prayer at a convenient time that won't disrupt a teaching session? I truly don't mean to offend. I am just having a difficult time figuring out what your answers are to Kelly's original question.

Practice what you want. Just remember that your prayer in public schools gets to share time with my yodeling.

WAit--where did I say that I was an atheist? I'm not, you know.

Also... I don't push my religion in schools at all. I'd just prefer that students were taught Calculus and how to read, and how to write, and MAYBE how to play an instrument rather than being taught the Lord's prayer and that the Pledge of Allegiance ALWAYS had the word "God" in it.

Frankly, I'm not pushing ANYTHING except the Christians BACK to where they belong--on equal footing with ALL other religions. THAT is why there is a separation of church and state--so that the majority cannot determine how the minority should worship.

"Christian" morals are not solely Christian, you know. Treating your neighbor with love and respect, honoring your parents and grandparents (and other family members), not killing, not cheating, not lying--Those are all pretty basic parts of just about any religion out there.

I'm not pushing atheism into schools--I'm pushing Christianity out. There is no place for formal recognition of a particular god in a secular school. If a student wants to have a silent prayer before a test, or prays out loud at their lunch table--I couldn't care less.

IF, however, you want a prayer on the loudspeaker first thing in the morning, or a prayer before a ball game, or a teacher leading a prayer in class before whatever--forget it. Pray yourself, pray at home--just don't make it a point to have organized prayer in school, unless (as I have previously said) you make it so that EVERY religion is EQUALLY recognized.

All religions are equal in this country. That's a big part of WHY this country was founded.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

WAit--where did I say that I was an atheist? I'm not, you know.

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Sorry, I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

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Also... I don't push my religion in schools at all. I'd just prefer that students were taught Calculus and how to read, and how to write, and MAYBE how to play an instrument rather than being taught the Lord's prayer and that the Pledge of Allegiance ALWAYS had the word "God" in it.

Frankly, I'm not pushing ANYTHING except the Christians BACK to where they belong--on equal footing with ALL other religions.

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But you are pushing.

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THAT is why there is a separation of church and state--so that the majority cannot determine how the minority should worship.

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But you want the minority to determine how the majority should worship? Or you want to force the majority not to worship at all?

In fact, the newest trend is not just to stop worship and prayer, but any mention of God at all.

Students Free to Thank Anybody, Except God

Monday, November 22, 2004
By Laurel Lundstrom
Fox News
FOXNews.com - Students Free to Thank Anybody, Except God - U.S. & World

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"Christian" morals are not solely Christian, you know. Treating your neighbor with love and respect, honoring your parents and grandparents (and other family members), not killing, not cheating, not lying--Those are all pretty basic parts of just about any religion out there.

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Then you shouldn't mind the Ten Commandments being taught in Public School.

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I'm not pushing atheism into schools--I'm pushing Christianity out.

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And that's better because..

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There is no place for formal recognition of a particular god in a secular school. If a student wants to have a silent prayer before a test, or prays out loud at their lunch table--I couldn't care less.

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But the law does. The law restricts private prayer to two minutes. And that is unconstitutional. We have freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of conscience. Students should be free to pray and to discuss God and religion anytime they want as long as they are not disruptive.

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IF, however, you want a prayer on the loudspeaker first thing in the morning, or a prayer before a ball game, or a teacher leading a prayer in class before whatever--forget it. Pray yourself, pray at home--just don't make it a point to have organized prayer in school, unless (as I have previously said) you make it so that EVERY religion is EQUALLY recognized.

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I believe that is what I said in my first post on this subject. In fact, my statement was broader. I said that the parents of the children must agree. Therefore, that includes those who do not practice a religion.

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All religions are equal in this country. That's a big part of WHY this country was founded.

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Correct. But religions was never abolished. Nor was freedom of conscience, freedom of religion nor freedom of speech. In fact, the abolishment of prayer in Public School was done without precedent.
Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by RubyPitbull

I am a bit confused by some of these posts. Soldout & DeMaria, in response to Kelly's original question are your personal positions that in the U.S. there should be a specified time set aside for prayers in school for Christian based religions, all religions, or are you simply stating that children should be allowed to say Grace before a meal, or have a moment of prayer at a convenient time that won't disrupt a teaching session? I truly don't mean to offend. I am just having a difficult time figuring out what your answers are to Kelly's original question.

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In my opinion, schools should be extensions of the parents and the schools should not organize anything with which the parents don't agree.

I also believe that a minority should not rule over the majority. That goes against the basis of our democratic nation.

In my opinion, it is the student's constitutional right to pray and talk about God and religion when and where they want according to the Bill of Rights which guarantees free speech and freedom of religion as long as they are not disruptive.

Sincerely,

De Maria

If someone wants to pray so be it. If a group prayer is unfortunitly discouriged so be it. To ban all together is unexceptable and unamerican.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I also believe that a minority should not rule over the majority. That goes against the basis of our democratic nation.

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Hello De:

Not really. It IS the basis of our democratic nation.

The Bill of Rights gives YOU rights. YOU have them, not because you belong to the majority or the minority. YOU have them because you're an American. The majority can't take them away. They can't VOTE them out. You have them because, as Thomas Jefferson said, they're "inalienable rights".

Even if ALL 300 million people in this country decided to pass a law that contravened the Bill of Rights, and YOU were the ONLY one opposed to it, you would win - and you should.

Does that mean a minority of ONE could tell the entire 300 million majority where to stick it?? In terms of prayer in school, YOU BETCHA!

excon

If the school is a christian school then prayer is OK, but it's very important not to force prayer onto an individual as well x

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Then you shouldn't mind the Ten Commandments being taught in Public School.

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NO, the ten commandments should NOT be taught in schools. Why? Because one of the commandments is:

Do not worship any other gods

Another is:

Do not make any idols

Another is:

Do not misuse the name of god

Another is:

Keep the Sabbath holy

Those "rules" apply to christians, and christians only. They are not essential to having a civilized, functioning society like oh, I don't know, telling kids murder is wrong and listening to your parents is good. :rolleyes:

Children in school should be free to express their own faiths. If that includes them praying in private or in their own groups that should be allowed ( and really is) kids in school can have their own private prayer groups and the such.

The schools unconsitutional behavior at restricting symbols such as the star of david or the cross and others should not be allowed and people of any or no faith should be outraged by such behavior of our schools.

Also we have to be close to remember that God and Christianity is a large part of the history and heritage of the US, and that not teaching their roles can often be a loss of the true meaning of many things from the US constitution, to the building of America which was often based on some religious group

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The schools unconsitutional behavior at restricting symbols such as the star of david or the cross and others should not be allowed and people of any or no faith should be outraged by such behavior of our schools.

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If one is going to display a cross then one should display all the markings of all religions, correct?

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The schools unconsitutional behavior at restricting symbols such as the star of david or the cross and others should not be allowed and people of any or no faith should be outraged by such behavior of our schools.

Also we have to be close to remember that God and Christianity is a large part of the history and heritage of the US, and that not teaching thier roles can often be a loss of the true meaning of many things from the US constitution, to the building of America which was often based on some religious group

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If by restricting symbols you mean students wearing jewelry, etc, I agree with you. I see no reason for a school to forbid students from wearing a cross, etc. I also agree with you that Christianity is a large part of US history, and see no reason students can't learn about that history without being delivered a sermon (or someone thinking that the mention of the word "god" equates to a sermon).

Yes, I have issues with many school officials where students wearing crosses have been ordered to take them off. We normally refer this to one of the christian legal teams for action.

Was not talking about the display of crosses by the school, but displays by students for certain activities, if they do art work for the holidays, santas would be OK but a manger scene not allowed for example.

For example the "mormon wars" or even the forcing christianity on the american indians were some sad points in our history but need to be taught also as an example what happens when one is not tolerant of other religions If we don't teach our history, good and bad, we are doomed to repeat a lot of the bad.

But the fact that almost all schools were first ran by churches, all early colleges were all church schools, is just a fact, part of the history never taught.d

The fact that the Cherokee people had the first real constitution in the US and alotof the one we have can be seen in theirs. I bet almost no student ever learns this.

I figured that's what you meant, Chuck, and I agree with you. I remember reading an article about a girl (in England) who was suspended for wearing a chastity ring to school; her school has a strict "no jewelry" policy, but made exceptions for religious icons. The school said the chastity ring was not an icon for her religion, so she must take it off. Though I disagree with the ban, I agreed with the school up until this point. Then it was revealed the school was permitting Muslim female students to wear bracelets to school with no penalty. I thought it was ridiculous to enforce the rules selectively - rules should be fairly applied to everyone, otherwise there's no point in having them.

Sorry - got a little off topic there!

Ok, understood. I agree with Jillian.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello De:

Not really. It IS the basis of our democratic nation.

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You seem to be saying that a minority may tyranize a majority, but you are wrong. This is not the American way.

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The Bill of Rights gives YOU rights. YOU have them, not because you belong to the majority or the minority.

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Exactly! The Bill of Rights protects the individual rights endowed by our Creator. The Declaration of Independence recognizes that we have a Creator.

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YOU have them because you're an American. The majority can't take them away.

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CORRECT! And the reverse is not true either. A MINORITY may not take them away from the majority.

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They can't VOTE them out. You have them because, as Thomas Jefferson said, they're "inalienable rights". Even if ALL 300 million people in this country decided to pass a law that contravened the Bill of Rights, and YOU were the ONLY one opposed to it, you would win - and you should.

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Not that I want to, but as I understand it, you can vote them out. The procedure for amending the Constitution is in the Constitution.
Constitutional Amendments - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

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Does that mean a minority of ONE could tell the entire 300 million majority where to stick it?? In terms of prayer in school, YOU BETCHA!

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Sorry, but that is wrong. The intent of the Founding Fathers is that individual rights be upheld and that legal decisions be made by majority vote.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

NO, the ten commandments should NOT be taught in schools. Why? Because one of the commandments is:

Do not worship any other gods

Another is:

Do not make any idols

Another is:

Do not misuse the name of god

Another is:

Keep the Sabbath holy

Those "rules" apply to christians, and christians only.

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I said taught, not forced upon. And remember, if you've been reading my messages, I believe that the parents are the ultimate teachers of their children and the schools should be extension of the parents. That means that I don't approve of children being taught anything against their parents' will.

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They are not essential to having a civilized, functioning society like oh, I don't know, telling kids murder is wrong and listening to your parents is good. :rolleyes:

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Which happen also to be Commandments. Thou shalt not kill and thou shalt honor thy father and mother. So, what, you want to teach 8 out of the 10 Commandments?

Now if I'm the parent in question and I want the Public Schools to teach the Commandments, I want them to teach the complete set. The rest of the Commandments make no sense without the first, to love God with all your heart and soul, upon which all Commandments are based.

Sincerely,

De Maria