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Originally Posted by ScottRC

so 'private' means independent of Apostolic authority, be it one person or one million.

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Scripture says that private means by man not the Holy Spirit.

And as for Apostolic authority, the Apostles all died about 2000 years ago. I'll stick with God's word, which comes from God, which is where the Apostles got their authority to begin with.

Divine revelation, private interpretation, whatever you want to call it it seems odd to me that we can all have the same 'private interpretation' which to me makes it seem like not so personally interpreted as some claim.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

divine revelation, private interpretation, whatever you want to call it it seems odd to me that we can all have the same 'private interpretation' which to me makes it seem like not so personally interpreted as some claim.

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Well, it shouldn't seem odd to you at all... you've all been educated by the same faith tradition and "stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught".

As Athanasius spoke against the Arians faulty interpretations of Scripture:

"However here too they (Arians) introduce their private fictions, and contend that the Son and the Father are not in such wise 'one,' or 'like,' as the CHURCH preaches, but as they themselves would have it"
-Orat 3,10

"Let us, retaining the GENERAL SCOPE of the faith, acknowledge that what they interpret ill, has a RIGHT interpretation"
-Orat 3,35

"But after him (the devil) and with him are all inventors of unlawful heresies, who indeed refer to the Scriptures, BUT DO NOT hold such opinions as the SAINTS HAVE HANDED DOWN, and receiving them as the traditions of men, err, because they DO NOT rightly KNOW THEM nor their power"
-Festal Letter 2

"Of course, the holy Scriptures, divinely inspired are self-sufficient for the proclamation of the truth. But there are also numerous works composed for this purpose by blessed TEACHERS. The ONE WHO READS THEM will UNDERSTAND the INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures AND will be ABLE to GAIN knowledge he desires"
-C. Gentes 1

God bless.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Well, it shouldn't seem odd to you at all.... you've all been educated by the same faith tradition and "stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught".

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THEN it is not private interpretation, as insisted upon in De Marie's post, if it was taught.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

THEN it is not private interpretation, as insisted upon in De Marie's post, if it was taught.

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I understand what you are saying... but I believe the rule against "private interpretation" does not simple mean one person.

Athanasius also correctly understood that "The holy and inspired Scriptures are sufficient of themselves for the preaching of the Truth" -Contra Gentiles 1,1

... but it's a matter of making sure that your interpretation is in keeping with the Church.

Blessings.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Some of us believe "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." and some of us don't..... :cool:

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Scott I am trying to reason out how you might determine who is going to hell and who is going to purgatory. You are saying you pray for those that go to purgatory. How do you JUDGE THAT?

Lev 19:15

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Scott I am trying to reason out how you might determine who is going to hell and who is going to purgatory. You are saying you pray for those that go to purgatory. How do you JUDGE THAT?

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Faith dear friend... simply faith.

I don't know how some here can profess to know for CERTAIN that some go the hell, but then attack those who, based upon their faith in the divine mercy of God, pray for those who are not in hell.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Faith dear friend... simply faith.

I don't know how some here can profess to know for CERTAIN that some go the hell, but then attack those who, based upon their faith in the divine mercy of God, pray for those who are not in hell.

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So HOW do you figure out who's in hell and who's in purgatory?

The Bible says that the road to heaven is narrow and that many go to hell so that is how it can be stated that it is certain that some go to hell. The point being that for ONE thing, if you are praying for somebody you assume to be in Purgatory when in actuality they are in hell that would make your prayers in vain which the Bible warns against.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So HOW do you figure out who's in hell and who's in purgatory?

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Umm... I already told you: faith.

"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31]

... and based upon faith that the person being prayed for is worthy of heaven, though in need of the "purgatorial fire" of Christ, we hope to intercede on their behalf.

I pray that one day this will be done for me!:D

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Scott I am trying to reason out how you might determine who is going to hell and who is going to purgatory. You are saying you pray for those that go to purgatory. How do you JUDGE THAT?

Lev 19:15

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I would add to Scott's comments, that the entire point is that it’s God's merciful and just will along with our willingness to accept his graces as determining factors who enters the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics don’t determine for themselves (similar to the “once saved and always saved” way of thinking) who enters the Kingdom of Heaven.

CCC 682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So HOW do you figure out who's in hell and who's in purgatory?

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That’s a curious question. Would you number who enter Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven? Or, is it that you would number yourself among the elect?

If nothing else you would be quite busy keeping all three gates.

JoeT

Okay why would the Bible say let the dead bury the dead if you were then suppose to then pray for people AFTER they died?

Luke 9:59-60

* "And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

* Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."

Psalms 88:10-12

* "Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

* Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

* Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? "


Hebrews 9:26-27

* "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

* And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

That’s a curious question. Would you number who enter Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven? Or, is it that you would number yourself among the elect?

If nothing else you would be quite busy keeping all three gates.

JoeT

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That was not the point at all whatsoever! The point is that you could very well be praying IN VAIN for loved ones to get out of purgatory when they are actually in hell. The Bible says do not pray in vain.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Umm.... I already told you: faith.

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How does that work? Faith that alcoholic Uncle Joe, whom I couldn't stand, is in hell, so no prayers? Faith that sweet Aunt Maud who loved to bake is in purgatory, so let's all pray for her?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Faith dear friend... simply faith.

I don't know how some here can profess to know for CERTAIN that some go the hell, but then attack those who, based upon their faith in the divine mercy of God, pray for those who are not in hell.

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To do judgement of another is to do harm to yourself and that person. So should you judge that someone is going to hell? .. I think not

Should you judge they are going to purgatory? .. It would again cause harm to yourself as well as that person.

Faith in God, His grace is a balance of truth without flaw or blemish.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

How does that work? Faith that alcoholic Uncle Joe, whom I couldn't stand, is in hell, so no prayers? Faith that sweet Aunt Maud who loved to bake is in purgatory, so let's all pray for her?

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No, I would be more inclined to pray for both of them. I would tend to trust in God's mercy and assume both made it to Heaven. Especially pray for Joe!
The point is WE don't determine who gets to Heaven and who doesn't. Catholic thinking is to leave that to God's merciful and just will.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I would add to Scott's comments, that the entire point is that it’s God's merciful and just will along with our willingness to accept his graces as determining factors who enters the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics don’t determine for themselves (similar to the “once saved and always saved” way of thinking) who enters the Kingdom of Heaven.

CCC 682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

JoeT

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Joe, your statement of reason is that when he comes at the end of time to judge.. That is exactly so.. Christ will judge.

I am asking how Scott reasons out that He himself can judge and make the decision to pray for who he determined went to hell or purgatory. And again scripture warns us not to judge... becuase we can be a stumbling block to ourselves and to whom we have judged. Plus scripture says you judge another ye can be condemned..


Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

The door is Christ..

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

No, I would be more inclined to pray for both of them. I would tend to trust in good mercy and assume both made it to Heaven.

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If both made it to heaven, why would I pray for them?

Sndbay Scott is saying he would even pray for the ones that went to hell therefore he would not have to judge.