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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Ok, I get it now.

Ok, Ok, I can take a hint too! Sometimes.

JoeT

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Time for a quiz?

De Maria, N0help,

Many thanks. That helps. I was thrown by all the accretions and suppressed premises, but now I get a better sense what the view is at least supposed to look like in a general way.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The Blood of the Covenant enables us to obey perfectly:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To do His Will is to obey.

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But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

No, classyT, I don't want to fight. I just wish that someone who thinks it's completely obvious that faith alone saves would take the time to go through all the Scripture De Maria and I have cited and explain to me why it's stupid to think otherwise.

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After hundreds of posts and showing you what scripture says, clearly that has been done.

BTW, it is not stupid to believe otherwise. Unlike you, I don't call people names like "goofus" and "stupid". I address the doctrine, which in the case it is unscriptural to believe in a gospel of works.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

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This is the Bible:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

After hundreds of posts and showing you what scripture says, clearly that has been done.

BTW, it is not stupid to believe otherwise. Unlike you, I don't call people names like "goofus" and "stupid". I address the doctrine, which in the case it is unscriptural to believe in a gospel of works.

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We don't believe in a Gospel of works.

We believe we are saved by grace through faith.
And we believe we are justified by faith perfected and expressed in good works.

That is in Scripture. Faith alone is only found once in Scripture.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

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Have not and cannot what? Obey? Why then did Christ give us a law (nomos) to love one another? He didn't appear to regard that as an impossible demand.

OK...
How about this.
Must a person be forgiven to be saved?
I believe so because the bible says so.
Now a person who has been property baptized with the Holy Spirit dwelling within who gets into a situation where he or she can not and will not forgive others.
Jesus tells us that a person who does not forgive others will not be forgiven.
Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours; 15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will NOT forgive your failings either.
In the prayer He taught us we do pray in accord with that, "Forgive us our sins AS WE forgive those who sin against us."
It seems to be that that baptized person who may have onece been saved tosses it away by not forgiving others.
That is just one example of many that I have been taught where a person CAN lose their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by arcura

OK...
How about this.
Must a person be forgiven to be saved?
I believe so because the bible says so.
Now a person who has been property baptized with the Holy Spirit dwelling within who gets into a situation where he or she can not and will not forgive others.
Jesus tells us that a person who does not forgive others will not be forgiven.
Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours; 15. but if you do not forgive others, your Father will NOT forgive your failings either.
In the prayer He taught us we do pray in accord with that, "Forgive us our sins AS WE forgive those who sin against us."
It seems to be that that baptized person who may have onece been saved tosses it away by not forgiving others.
That is just one example of many that I have been taught where a person CAN lose their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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This is helpful. Salvation isn't something *I possess*. It isn't my property irrespective of the life I lead.

I equate "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit after being baptized to be that the Holy Spirit abides within us.
That is with the old meaning that abides means lives or stays.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by De Maria

This is the Bible:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Our righteousness can only come through Christ when His righteousness is imputed to us. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling us that does that work. You know the Holy Spirit that scripture says cannot indwell the unsaved?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

We don't believe in a Gospel of works.

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Then why are you spending so much time arguing in favour of a works gospel?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Have not and cannot what? Obey? Why then did Christ give us a law (nomos) to love one another? He didn't appear to regard that as an impossible demand.

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Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Then why are you spending so much time arguing in favour of a works gospel?

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That is how you characterize it. It's the strawman you build so that you can knock it down. But it isn't what we believe. We believe in faith and works:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?

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I have already disavowed the perfection requirement. It's Gnostic. But perfection and perfectibility aren't the same thing, of course. In any case, to require works is not eo ipso to require perfection in works. No Catholic, as I've said, would hold that I can win my salvation on the strength of works alone. You have taken that to mean that works aren't necessary--on the strength of the fact that they aren't sufficient. But, as I've repeatedly said, the Catholic-Orthodox view is that works are necessary but not sufficient conditions for salvation.

I'm not sure I see why you're convinced that to require works is to require perfection in works.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Our righteousness can only come through Christ when His righteousness is imputed to us. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling us that does that work. You know the Holy Spirit that scripture says cannot indwell the unsaved?

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I don't see the word "unsaved" anywhere in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?

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You didn't answer my question, so I'll rephrase it: Why did Christ give it as a law (nomos) that we are to love one another? Was this just advice? If so, why is it said to be a law (nomos)?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?

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That is God's to judge. We simply obey. That is God's will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

This is the Bible:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

Are you claiming to perfectly obey God's law?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

That is God's to judge. We simply obey. That is God's will.

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Slippery answer. But that does not do it. Scripture says that if you claim that you have, you are a liar.

Is the Bible wrong?