Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

De Maria,
I stand with you on the Purgatory question.
I see bible passages that support its existence but none that prove it dose not exist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Then bring forward the verses that support its existence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.

---

I consider a place of confinement a jail. Apparently you want to put a different spin on it than the actual people who actually know the language and what it means.
[I]1 Peter 3:18-20 (New International Version)
19through whomalso he went and preached to the spirits in prison

KJV
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Literally everyone interprets it "prison", except you.

What makes you a greater authority than they?

Quote:

---

Perhaps you missed the reference to the flood.

---

No. But we are no speaking of the reference to the "prison" which you wish were not there. But it is. And you can't INTERPRET it away.

Quote:

---

I cannot tell you if protestants dpo or don't. I am not a protestant.

---

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Since you protest only about Catholic doctrine, you are a protestant.

Quote:

---

But I can say that I have never heard anyone claim that Abraham's bosom was in heaven.

---

Then you admit that there is more to the after life than just heaven and hell?

Read Lilmkiss's message for the commonly held Protestant view that Abraham's bosom is in heaven.

Quote:

---

This is speaking symbolically - an "act" cannot be destroyed.In any case, it has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory, nor with men being burned in purgatory.

---

So, there is no actual fire and nothing is being burned or destroyed?

Quote:

---

What this is referring to, if you read the context, is showing how the work which are done for Christ live on whereas those not done for Christ amount to nothing in eternity. Those done for Christ result in the rewards.

---

Now you're putting a top spin on Scripture. Read it more carefully:

14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS.

Quote:

---

Read it in context. I am telling you just what it says.

---

No, you're telling me what you wish it said. But the context is clear. It is purgatory. A place of purifying fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

When Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison that was a place where they waited UNTIL Jesus was sacrificed it was no longer needed once Jesus paid for our sins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

You have never dealt with the passages put forward - just passing judgment with your own private interpretation over God's word is not convincing.

---

No, no. You've got that confused. We are interpreting Scripture according to the tradition of the Church.

You are interpreting Scripture according to your private interpretation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

When Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison that was a place where they waited UNTIL Jesus was sacrificed it was no longer needed once Jesus paid for our sins.

---

So Jesus did away with that prison? Where is that in Scripture?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

I consider a place of confinement a jail.

---

Perhaps you ought to consult a Greek lexicon.

Quote:

---

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Since you protest only about Catholic doctrine, you are a protestant.

---

Then you must be a Mormon (ccc #460 says that men become God)

Quote:

---

Then you admit that there is more to the after life than just heaven and hell?

---

Not now. Nohelp4u explained it nicely

Quote:

---

Read Lilmkiss's message for the commonly held Protestant view that Abraham's bosom is in heaven.

---

I am not interested in either a protestant or Catholic view. I focus on what scripture says. If you want to argue with protestants, go for it.

Quote:

---

So, there is no actual fire and nothing is being burned or destroyed?

---

Do you think that acts catch fire? Hmmm could solve the energy crisis!

Hmmm that is really something that Tom interprets the Bible according to his OWN private interpretation yet I and many others BELIEVE exactly as Tjs does so that must mean that anything contrary to the RCC is considered OWN private interpretation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

You are interpreting Scripture according to your private interpretation.

---

No, no, no. Tom did a nice job using Scripture to support Scripture. It wasn't his interpretation, but what the Bible actually says.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

You are interpreting Scripture according to your private interpretation.

---

The private interpretation of the men in your denomination.

Tj3,
DON'T try to pull that game here.
The passages supporting the existence of Purgatory have been posted here.
You do not believe what they say, but that is your problem not mine or of those other people here who have posted them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
DON'T try to pull that game here.
The passages supporting the existence of Purgatory have been posted here.
You do not believe what they say, but that is your problem not mine or of those other people here who have posted them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Are you referring to your copy and paste from the "Catholic Apologists Cheat Sheet website" that you did not give credit to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Heaven and Hell? I thought that we just agreed that Abraham's Bosom was not heaven. On the other hand, there is no suffering there so it provides no support for your mythical place called purgatory.

---

Come now TJ. You know I was addressing Lilmkiss in that response. And Lilmkiss believes that Abraham's Bosom is in heaven.

However, you and I have danced this dance before. Let me repeat. Look at the other soul, Dives, the Rich Man.

Where is he?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

You like to look for the original language behind the words. What is the Greek word here translated "hell"?

And since when do souls in hell and souls in heaven addresses each other as father and son?

And since when do souls in the hell of the damned, in eternal punishment, seek to aid and comfort their brethren on earth?

I'm interested in your answer to all those questions. But I'm sure you'll ignore them as usual.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Bible says JESUS was the propitiation for our sins and that we crucify him fresh by thinking that there is any other way so I still have to see how you feel you proved Purgatory.

You still have yet to explain how you can still justify a purgatory over these scriptures.
Purgatory makes these verses tossed in the garbage.


Hebrews 1:3
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 7:27-28
Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

I don't see where there is room for purgatory in any of these verses. Purgatory would make them a lie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, no, no. Tom did a nice job using Scripture to support Scripture. It wasn't his interpretation, but what the Bible actually says.

---

Lets go over it again Wondergirl.

Tom said that prison does not mean prison. Read it yourself:

In message #448, Tom said:
That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.

So, what do you think? Is this a prison or not? That is what the KJV and the NIV both say. Do you interpret it differently and on what basis?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Marie
Acrura even stated #451 that Lazarus/Abraham's bosom has nothing to do with Purgatory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Where is he?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

You like to look for the original language behind the words. What is the Greek word here translated "hell"?

---

As you should know, there are several words in scripture used to describe hell.

Luke 16:23-24
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV

Notice the gulf?

Luke 16:25-27
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
NKJV

Quote:

---

And since when do souls in hell and souls in heaven addresses each other as father and son?

---

Who said that this was heaven? You are arguing a strawman.
And so what if Abraham chose that word - who are you to judge him for doing so?

Quote:

---

And since when do souls in the hell of the damned, in eternal punishment, seek to aid and comfort their brethren on earth?

---

I could not tell you. I have never been in hell. Have you? Thjat being the case, I'll accept the scriptural account.

Quote:

---

I'm interested in your answer to all those questions. But I'm sure you'll ignore them as usual.

---

Can't avoid the nasty crack, can you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by De Maria

Lets go over it again Wondergirl.

Tom said that prison does not mean prison. Read it yourself:

In message #448, Tom said:
That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.

So, what do you think? Is this a prison or not? That is what the KJV and the NIV both say. Do you interpret it differently and on what basis?

Sincerely,

De Maria

---

Maria,

Are you aware that in translating words from one language to another, there is some loss in the connotation of the word? And yes, in English, prison means prison, and yes, the Greek word can mean prison when read in that context. But the Greek word carries a wider meaning which you appear to wish to ignore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

De Marie
Acrura even stated #451 that Lazarus/Abraham's bosom has nothing to do with Purgatory.

---

Ooooooooohhhhh - I wonder is De Maria will accuse Fred of going against the interpretation of the Magisterium! ;)

Tj3,
I am referring to what I and others here posted. Some posted the location of the passages for those who bother to look them up and the others I mentioned posted that passages word for word.
I thought that you read what I clearly said.
But it appears that you did not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria,
I'll watch for Tj3's answer to those questions.
I think you are right he will ignore them.
But he might try to twist them as is his habit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred