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Originally Posted by classyT

There is no condition. no strings attached. IT IS FINISHED!!!!

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So then I don't need faith either? (That's a string.)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Because if you are relating that to your works, then you must obey perfectly.

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The Blood of the Covenant enables us to obey perfectly:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To do His Will is to obey.

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There is a difference here. Those who believe in the Biblical gospel depend upon obedience to the gospel for salvation and the fact that Jesus sacrifice on the cross pays the full price with no works from us required.

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That is a false Gospel.

The true Gospel, which is taught in the Bible, expects us to work in response to the Grace of God in us.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

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Those who hold to the works gospel believe that the works of obedience are required, which places you back under the law. Once you believe that it is YOU paying even part through your works, you are back under the law and must obey perfectly.

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That's your gospel. We simply obey God. God can never be repayed.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

As for us and our Catholic Family, we will serve the Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

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I just want to call special attention to this verse.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

So then I don't need faith either? (That's a string.)

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THE WORK is finished. He finished THE WORK on the cross. Faith plus NUTTIN. THAT is what you need.

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Originally Posted by classyT

THE WORK is finished. He finished THE WORK on the cross. Faith plus NUTTIN. THAT is what you need.

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He finished HIS work on the Cross.

Akoue,

He finished THE ONLY WORK.. the ONLY sacrifice, the ONLY beggotten son... the ONLY lamb... LOL... we can fight all night if you want to. ;)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Akoue,

He finished THE ONLY WORK..the ONLY sacrifice, the ONLY beggotten son...the ONLY lamb...LOL....we can fight all night if ya wanna. ;)

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No, classyT, I don't want to fight. I just wish that someone who thinks it's completely obvious that faith alone saves would take the time to go through all the Scripture De Maria and I have cited and explain to me why it's stupid to think otherwise. I'm not trying to challenge you--I'm not saying it has to be you. It's just that James 2 (to name just one of the VERY many passages that have been offered now) sure seems to say that works are required in order to have a living faith. And I can't seem to get anyone to explain to me how I'm wrong to read it that way.

I've been told that this has been explained to me, but I've read through this thread now more than once and I can't seem to find any posts that take what I've said about Scripture and explains clearly to me what I've done wrong. So, in the absence of that, slogans don't carry much water with me.

DeMaria:

What does “indwelling” mean? Where does it come from in Scripture? And finally, how does it correspond to our Catholic faith? Is this connected to “once saved always saved” theology? Is it connected to predestination? Do you have to be indwelled before you are saved? I'm really lost on this one – to me it's as foreign as a Yankee in cotton pick'en season.

JoeT

Indwelling is after you are saved you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and many people get spiritual wisdom, discernment and things like that. They can feel the Holy Spirit 'living' within them.
That is partly why Christians have the confidence to say they are going to heaven.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Indwelling is after you are saved you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and many people get spiritual wisdom, discernment and things like that. They can feel the Holy Spirit 'living' within them.
That is partly why Christians have the confidence to say they are going to heaven.

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And where does this come from in Scripture?

All through Acts for one.
But throughout the New Testament

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

DeMaria:

What does “indwelling” mean? Where does it come from in Scripture? And finally, how does it correspond to our Catholic faith?

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Its not Catholic terminology, but it is Catholic Teaching. It means that the we received the Holy Spirit in Baptism

Acts Of Apostles 2 38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and the Holy Spirit remains with us:

1 Corinthians 6 19 Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own?

I hope that answers those three questions.

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Is this connected to “once saved always saved” theology?

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I think so. In my opinion, it is quite a reasonable misunderstanding. Who would dream that someone in whom the Holy Spirit dwells could commit sin and fall away?

However, the "once saved always saved" theology confuses me as well. How is one saved then unsaved? How were they saved at all if they wound up in hell anyway?

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Is it connected to predestination?

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Yes. Those predestined are they who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is also why they are considered saved.

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Do you have to be indwelled before you are saved?

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Yes. That is why many Protestants don't consider "water" baptism necessary. And that is why they frequently use the example of the just Cornelius in Acts 10, who received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

They jump to the conclusion that means that he was saved BEFORE baptism. But the Scripture doesn't say that at all.

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I’m really lost on this one – to me it’s as foreign as a Yankee in cotton pick’en season.

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As Elizabeth Bennet once said: Perhaps you should take your aunt's advice and practice?. ;)

I can't believe I just said that. Can you tell I have two daughters? I guess they've got Dad wrapped around their little finger.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

All through Acts for one.
But throughout the New Testament

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“Dwell” is used 241 times in the Douay-Rheims. I only found two references to dwelling in, defining a possession of sorts. The others all referred to a place of habitat.

Romans 8: 8 And they who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, but the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Wisdom 1: 4 For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins. 5 For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in.

Wisdom seems to indicate that you must be holy before indwelling takes place. So how do you become holy without the Holy Spirit?

Now you've really confused me!

If indwelling comes after one is saved where is the motivating force to become possessed by the Holy Spirit? And, if you are indwelled, does this negate the will? The only grantee of redemption is stated in John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. Does indwelling supersede Christ’s promise, and if so where is it in Scripture?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Indwelling is after you are saved you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and many people get spiritual wisdom, discernment and things like that. They can feel the Holy Spirit 'living' within them.
That is partly why Christians have the confidence to say they are going to heaven.

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So indwelling is a feeling? That's it? A psychological state? And what lets me know that it is the Holy Spirit and not Satan presenting himself as "an angel of light"?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I guess they've got Dad wrapped around their little finger.

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All right, now I have to apologize for using the feminine pronoun when referring to you on earlier posts. Oops.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Its not Catholic terminology, but it is Catholic Teaching. It means that the we received the Holy Spirit in Baptism

Acts Of Apostles 2 38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and the Holy Spirit remains with us:

1 Corinthians 6 19 Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own?

I hope that answers those three questions.



I think so. In my opinion, it is quite a reasonable misunderstanding. Who would dream that someone in whom the Holy Spirit dwells could commit sin and fall away?

However, the "once saved always saved" theology confuses me as well. How is one saved then unsaved? How were they saved at all if they wound up in hell anyway?



Yes. Those predestined are they who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is also why they are considered saved.



Yes. That is why many Protestants don't consider "water" baptism necessary. And that is why they frequently use the example of the just Cornelius in Acts 10, who received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

They jump to the conclusion that means that he was saved BEFORE baptism. But the Scripture doesn't say that at all.



As Elizabeth Bennet once said: Perhaps you should take your aunt's advice and practice? ...;)

I can't believe I just said that. Can you tell I have two daughters? I guess they've got Dad wrapped around their little finger.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Ok, I get it now.

Ok, Ok, I can take a hint too! Sometimes.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Its not Catholic terminology, but it is Catholic Teaching. It means that the we received the Holy Spirit in Baptism

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That's fine, but that doesn't appear to me to be the way they've been using it (although, in the absence of any careful definition its hard to pin their usage down). It looked to me at times like a grab-bag notion without clear boundaries. I don't wish to quarrel with you, but I'm not so sure that what they have in mind is in fact quite in line with Catholic teaching (although I'll defer since, as I say, I can't get a clear sense from the uses to which its been put what a definition of the view would look like... and I don't think it's entirely my fault).

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

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Wisdom seems to indicate that you must be holy before indwelling takes place. So how do you become holy without the Holy Spirit?

Now you've really confused me!

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Me too.

Is it connected with the once saved always saved?
They do believe in the indwelling but it is also believed by other Christian groups that do not believe in once saved always saved.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

That's fine, but that doesn't appear to me to be the way they've been using it (although, in the absence of any careful definition its hard to pin their usage down). It looked to me at times like a grab-bag notion without clear boundaries. I don't wish to quarrel with you, but I'm not so sure that what they have in mind is in fact quite in line with Catholic teaching (although I'll defer since, as I say, I can't get a clear sense from the uses to which its been put what a definition of the view would look like... and I don't think it's entirely my fault).

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You aren't wrong.

When I said the idea is Catholic Teaching, I meant the bare minimum idea that we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism and that the Holy Spirit remains (dwells) in us.

However, the other assumptions that they add to that belief are as varied as their denominations (see Nohelp4u's reply above) and most of those are definitely opposed to Catholic Teaching.

Sincerely,

De Maria