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Originally Posted by arcura

Scripture showing the existence of Purgatory has been provided here.
No meaningful scripture has been shown to prove Purgatory does not exist.
That is the way I see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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The problem is that Protestants recognize ANY interpretation of Scripture except the Catholic interpretation of Scripture.

Peace

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes those groups that do not accept it, don't, and those that do will.
They look at the same verses in the bible and come up with different meanings

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Originally Posted by De Maria

But you do, its called "Sola Scriptura".

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Only if you call scripture "heresy"

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Of course it has, Fred. I provided it pages ago.

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I didn't see it. Please show me.

Otherwise, I'll have to stick with:

1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Which explicitly describe the spiritual concept which the Catholic Church calls purgatory.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The problem is that Protestants recognize ANY interpretation of Scripture except the Catholic interpretation of Scripture.

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Not quite. Protestants don't accept Catholic traditions that have become doctrines with their own unique interpretations of Scripture. Protestants are on the same page, but not necessarily the Catholic page.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I didn't see it. Please show me.

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These were refuted so many times...

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1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

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1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom. Note that the suffering referred to here was in the flesh, not after death.

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1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

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1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Yes those groups that do not accept it, don't, and those that do will.
They look at the same verses in the bible and come up with different meanings

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Then I have to ask you which is the truth? These men have not shown any scriptural evidence for there claim that pergatory exists (except for things taken out of context further meaning that they only take one verse and construe what it was used for instead of using it in the context of the verses before and after.) yet we have shown these verses in full context to show that these are lies if they can give us scripture in full context then I am sure we would be willing to listen.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

These were refuted so many times...

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Nah!

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1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom.

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Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:

Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom....25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Note how the angels brought Lazarus to Abraham's bosom and Lazareth is there comforted.

Is that a place which could be described as a prison? I think not.

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Note that the suffering referred to here was in the flesh, not after death.

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Please divide the word rightly. Divine longsuffering refers to God's patience dealing with the disobedient souls of that time.

There is no direct mention of suffering in this passage at all, except to mention that these spirits were in prison. And prisons are places of punishment and therefore of suffering.

Finally, I'm surprised you believe in a place called Abraham's bosom? So do we. I thought Protestant's only believed that Abraham's bosom was in heaven? After all, being absent from the body is being present with the Lord. Since when did you begin to believe in a place, separate from heaven and hell, called Abraham's bosom?

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1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

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Sooo, these works are destroyed? Where are these works which are destroyed? Are they carried in the man's soul? Or are they something apart from the soul? Does the fire come to earth and burn down grass huts and other works of men made of flammable materials?

And if you decide that these works which are destroyed are contained in the man's soul, does that not mean that the man's soul is purified of dead works?

Sincerely,

De Maria

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom... 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Okay so now the beggar is comforted
And the rich man is tormented

How does that prove Purgatory?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

"Show scripture"....???

How many times do you have to be reminded that I don't subscribe to the heresy of sola scriptura? I've given my reasonings, showing Scripture and Tradition... and I've yet to see anyone offer anything reasonable that shows purgatory is a non-Biblical concept....

And please try to show some manners.... this is a public forum and you don't have the right to tell ANYONE to "be quiet"... it's rude and very unChristian.

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Yes we where told in the bible by Jesus that we are to test everything with scripture again I will show you a verse to support! What I just said yet again. Jesus told the leaders of the synagogue to be quiet, when they where spreading lies and deceat. So I see no diffrence of when I told you to be quiet. Sola Scripture? How exactly is Sola Scripture heresy? Please do explain? And just as well to be ingnorant is very unChristain as well.

1 John 4
Test the Spirits
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets (this is not part of scripture but this is also pointing to the people such as the pope)have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

If it was Herresy then this set of verses shouldn't be in the bible.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Nah!

Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:

Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom....25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Note how the angels brought Lazarus to Abraham's bosom and Lazareth is there comforted.

Is that a place which could be described as a prison? I think not.

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That is the problem with looking only at the English translation. The word in Greek refers to a confinement or act of confining in terms of a place, a guard or in terms of a division of time. It does not means that they were in what we think of as a jail.

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Please divide the word rightly. Divine longsuffering refers to God's patience dealing with the disobedient souls of that time.

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Perhaps you missed the reference to the flood.

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Finally, I'm surprised you believe in a place called Abraham's bosom? So do we. I thought Protestant's only believed that Abraham's bosom was in heaven?

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I cannot tell you if protestants dpo or don't. I am not a protestant. But I can say that I have never heard anyone claim that Abraham's bosom was in heaven.

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Sooo, these works are destroyed? Where are these works which are destroyed? Are they carried in the man's soul? Or are they something apart from the soul? Does the fire come to earth and burn down grass huts and other works of men made of flammable materials?

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This is speaking symbolically - an "act" cannot be destroyed. In any case, it has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory, nor with men being burned in purgatory.

What this is referring to, if you read the context, is showing how the work which are done for Christ live on whereas those not done for Christ amount to nothing in eternity. Those done for Christ result in the rewards.

Read it in context. I am telling you just what it says.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Nah!



Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:

Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom....25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

Note how the angels brought Lazarus to Abraham's bosom and Lazareth is there comforted.

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The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Again this is talking about two living men that died one went to heven one went to hell nothing more this is not proof for pergatory.

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Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

again this is talking about two living men that died one went to heven one went to hell nothing more this is not proof for pergatory.

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Lets see, a soul in hell calls Abraham "Father", begs Abraham for salvation for his brothers. Abraham turns around and addresses this soul as "son".

Since when are the souls in heaven and hell on such good terms? I thought there was a war going on?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Wondergirl,
Those Scripture passages that have been posted supposedly concerning purgatory don't and they DO NOT PROVE that Purgatory does not exist.Therefore they are not meaningful regarding that issue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Lets see, a soul in hell calls Abraham "Father", begs Abraham for salvation for his brothers. Abraham turns around and addresses this soul as "son".

Since when are the souls in heaven and hell on such good terms? I thought there was a war going on?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Heaven and Hell? I thought that we just agreed that Abraham's Bosom was not heaven. On the other hand, there is no suffering there so it provides no support for your mythical place called purgatory.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Those Scripture passages that have been posted supposedly concerning purgatory don't and they DO NOT PROVE that Purgatory does not exist.Therefore they are not meaningful regarding that issue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred,

You have never dealt with the passages put forward - just passing judgment with your own private interpretation over God's word is not convincing.

It is an allegory to make a point

The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away,

Arcura
Note: De Marie is the one that keeps bringing up Lazarus post #445 and previous ones

De Marie:
Couldn't be. Lets look at the verse that refers directly to Abraham's bosom:

I agree where ever Abraham's bosom is the story is nothing to do with Purgatory?

De Maria,
I stand with you on the Purgatory question.
I see bible passages that support its existence but none that prove it dose not exist.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Sounds like a lively place!

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