It seems to me that we are just waiting for someone to write something ''strange'' so that we can attack!We show no efford to understand someone's point of view and take it a liitle bit further from what is written.We enjoy playing with words and we seem to be word servants instead of making the words working for us.I see no hunger to share , I only see the will to justify our opinions.
I am very sad with this, I cannot believe the bloodbath here.I am sure that Satan is laughing at us right this moment!
You spend so much of yourselves and what good came out of it?
Who got closer to Christ through this?What glory did Jesus gain from all this?What kind of reward do you think Jesus will give us for this?
Please remember your first love!How difficult can it be?Is it easier for us to hurt our brothers than to fight the enemy?
You turned my Father's house into a house of a killer!

Genesis 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

How can't you see?There is only A river, the River of Life, Jesus and this river is parted .I have one part , you have one part, he has one part, they have one part and we should ALL water the Garden.But instead we turn ourselves against each other , so no good comes out of it.No water is reaching the garden to water it!There is only a mess everywhere!!
God has given us a part of Himself , for one purpose... to water the garden.Are we doing this?Do we obey Him?If someone believes that through faith we are saved , he is right, but is this faith?Are we faithfull to Him?Do we show ANY faith to Him?If someone believes that faith without works is dead , he is right but is this how we work for Him?Are these our faith and works?
A non believer would turn as far away as he could from Jesus just because of us, because we are an awfull example!
There is no light in us that could take away the darkness from the world.If there was ANY light in us , Jesus would have put us in a place where EVERYBODY could see our light and everybody would have admitt that WE HAVE CHRIST IN US!!
No wonder the world remains in darkness!
Aren't we the salt of the world?And if the world is like it is , aren't we also to blame?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

How does 2Tim.1.8-10 help Tj. No one has argued that we can be saved by works ALONE?

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Read it. It does not say "Not accordingly to works alone...", but it says "...not according to works".

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Originally Posted by De Maria

It has to do with obedience.

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De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

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Originally Posted by Akoue

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

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No, because if you must do something or your do not receive something in return, that is "earning" it. If you say that works are essential to be saved, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient and that man's works can fill that gap.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient ,

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Why? What does that have to do with the FACT that Scripture says that Jesus will save those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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(Rom 3:23)

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Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5: 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

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keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

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You don't understand. We who are living in the law of grace are EXPECTED TO BE PERFECT. That is what St. James means:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Understand that we no longer live by the Law of Moses, but by the Law of Jesus:

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Living under Jesus' law, we must refrain from sin:

Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

So, if you think that being a Christian, you now have a license to ignore the Commandments, you are gravely mistaken:

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 3: 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Read it.

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OK.

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It does not say "Not accordingly to works alone...", but it says "...not according to works".

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2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord,

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Therefore, we must not be ashamed to let people know we are Christians.

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nor of me his prisoner:

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Nor should we be ashamed to let people know that we also follow St. Paul and our leaders in the Faith.

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but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel

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But unite yourself with the Gospel and suffer with Christ. As the same Apostle says elsewhere:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This means that if we suffer with Jesus, we will be glorified and if we don't suffer with Jesus, we won't be glorified with Him.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

In essence, suffering is a work which perfects our faith.

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

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according to the power of God;

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According to God's will.

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9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,

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Who has saved us and called us by the Sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son.

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not according to our works,

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Because neither faith nor works could merit that Jesus come in the flesh and die for our sins.

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but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

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But according to His will which is that those whom obey Him should be saved:

Deut 30: 15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

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10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

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But Jesus Christ has died in order to bring life to those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

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Tell us then why does Peter exhort us to holiness in life trhough obedience in the first book of Peter chapter 1? 1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

And in Luke we see a call to holiness:Luke 1:74 That being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear:75 In holiness and justice before him, all our days.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Tj3

No, because if you must do something or your do not receive something in return, that is "earning" it. If you say that works are essential to be saved, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient and that man's works can fill that gap.

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Well, then, by your reasoning we "earn" salvation by having faith since, as you yourself have said, we do not receive salvation unless we have faith (quid pro quo).

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Originally Posted by Tj3

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

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Rm.3.23: Right, all have sinned and so all require grace. Haven't I said this all along?
James 2.10: Here again you are failing to observe the facts that there are works apart from the Mosaic Law. James in this verse is talking about the Law, the Law of the Pentateuch. He's not talking about all works of any kind. So it doesn't speak to the point you wish to make.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Why? What does that have to do with the FACT that Scripture says that Jesus will save those who obey Him?

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Because if you are relating that to your works, then you must obey perfectly. There is a difference here. Those who believe in the Biblical gospel depend upon obedience to the gospel for salvation and the fact that Jesus sacrifice on the cross pays the full price with no works from us required.

Those who hold to the works gospel believe that the works of obedience are required, which places you back under the law. Once you believe that it is YOU paying even part through your works, you are back under the law and must obey perfectly.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Tell us then why does Peter exhort us to holiness in life trhough obedience in the first book of Peter chapter 1? 1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

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Whose holiness is it? Ours or His?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Well, then, by your reasoning we "earn" salvation by having faith since, as you yourself have said, we do not receive salvation unless we have faith (quid pro quo).

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We receive our faith from God.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Rm.3.23: Right, all have sinned and so all require grace. Haven't I said this all along?

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But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.

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James 2.10: Here again you are failing to observe the facts that there are works apart from the Mosaic Law. James in this verse is talking about the Law, the Law of the Pentateuch. He's not talking about all works of any kind. So it doesn't speak to the point you wish to make.

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We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

Reality is that we fail with the flesh body, but just as that is a reality of life, so is God and His desires for our love and thankfulness a Higher Reality in Free Will.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It is written that we are to not to be ignorance in knowing, that all was done in ensample for us. Knowing that we are to please God in obedience and thankfulness. Showing in our own walk to follow, the glory unto all that was given to us. The ensample was that they all did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.(1 Cr 10:4 ) Yet remember that God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. ( 1 Cr 10:5)

1 Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

1 Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

1 Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

( Tts 2:9 exhort in obedience )

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:14 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? {{{{God forbid.}}}}

Romans 6:15 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:16 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Free Will to follow Christ. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. The rich man can be any man that have taken the wrong path. The retirement that comes, after a preacher has taught the wrong lesson and God reveals the Spiritual Truth.Can the preacher then give up that retirement, and what he led as a good life, to then follow the righteous path that God revealed ? Or will that preacher continue on his own pride, and try to justify what he has done by saying it is forgiveable?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.

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It is required that you respond to grace, yes.

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We receive our faith from God.

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Has anyone doubted that?

But if we don't exercise our God given faith, are we saved?

The case is the same with works. God works through us. But if we don't permit Him to work through us, we receive His grace in vain:

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.



We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

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Let's say you give your daughter a bicycle for her birthday. You give her the bike, teach her to ride it, and tell her that she isn't to ride it in the street, she isn't to venture beyond a boundary which you delimit for her, she's to bring it into the garage when she's done riding it, etc. You tell her that she has to take care of the bike and you show her how. In time you find that she's riding in the street, exceeding the boundaries you assigned, leaving the bike out in the rain and snow. So, finally, you take the bike away from her.

Now it looks to me like the gift had not been earned: It was freely given; you didn't offer it to her in repayment for any work she had done. (Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection was gratuitous; his gift of grace is gratuitous.) But, by her actions, she lost the gift, it was removed from her on account of what she had done, the way she acted in the light of that gift. Similarly here: Our works do not earn us the gift of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. But this isn't to say that they aren't necessary for the eternal salvation of our souls. The gift that has been offered can be lost if, by our actions, we reject it.

Akoue,

Yes well when you kick her out of your family for riding the bike in the street... then let me know. LOL.. not the same at all.

He paid the price.. we accept or reject it. AND by the way, we are SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise. SEALED is SEALED. He said he would NEver no NEVER no not EVER leave us for forsake us. Never means just that. You say well you left him.. and I submit to you... Jesus said... I will NEVER leave you. There is no condition. No strings attached. IT IS FINISHED!!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

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Repetition is an invaluable instructional tool, yes.

You say that nothing "limits" it to the Mosaic law? Does anything said here explicitly extend it beyond the Mosaic Law? What law might it be talking about? Any law at all? Like the law to love one another? Christ explicitly offers this as A LAW (the Gospel calls it that).