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Originally Posted by De Maria

If it doesn't, please show where and how any of those references in your message support Scripture alone.

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Reinterated

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, [which are able] to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and [is]profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


DeMaria, Without discrediting the facts that are told to us in these scriptures, that are refer as the Truth of Our Father, as the inspiration that Our Father gives, what else can be put above?

Your Choice

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Christ is the Foundation and upon it was the fellowship built by the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the corner stone. This is what the House of God feeds the children of God. The fellowship in Christ, the Foundation.

1 Corinthains 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ

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Are you saying that Christ did not have the authority to build His Church upon the foundation of Peter?

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Eph 2:19- 20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, [but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

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This says that the Apostles are the foundation. That would tend to confirm that Jesus could establish His Church upon the foundation of Peter.

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DeMaria, Who Did Christ follow?

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I don't know, who?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Reinterated

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, [which are able] to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

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This is Catholic teaching. I see nowhere the terminology Scripture alone or only Scripture or anything that would indicate that the Church does not also have authority given by Christ nor that Traditions are no longer in force.

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2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and [is]profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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"All" does not translate to "only". And the entire verse is set in the context of teaching. So obviously St. Paul is not there teaching Scripture alone.

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DeMaria, Without discrediting the facts that are told to us in these scriptures, that are refer as the Truth of Our Father, as the inspiration that Our Father gives, what else can be put above?

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Are you asking me, what is needed in order to prove Sola Scriptura from these verses? If so, I would have to see the context of the entire message.

Lets look at 2 Tim 1:
11 Wherein I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For which cause I also suffer these things: but I am not ashamed. For I know whom I have believed, and I am certain that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day. 13 Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me in faith, and in the love which is in Christ Jesus.

Note how St. Paul is teaching Oral Tradition. He is a preacher, an apostle and a teacher. And he instructs Timothy to Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me .

So, in the first Chapter, St. Paul is teaching St. Timothy to teach.

Lets look at chapter 2:
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace which is in Christ Jesus: 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

Still teaching St. Timothy to teach.

Chapter 3 you've provided, but let me emphasize the teaching aspect again:
16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

Note how he is preparing the man of God to teach others.

And finally chapter 4:
1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: 2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.

That's pretty self explanatory. Although you guys want to take one little verse, pretend that "all" means "only" and then discard the rest of the second letter of Timothy to force the Scriptures to teach Sola Scriptura, a true understanding of that letter, in context, is about Magisterium. The Teaching Church. St. Paul a Bishopand member of the Church Magisterium is teaching a new Bishop what are His duties as Bishop. And his duty is to teach.

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Your Choice

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That is true. I choose to believe Scripture and obey my Church leaders:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

This says that the Apostles are the foundation. That would tend to confirm that Jesus could establish His Church upon the foundation of Peter.


I don't know, who?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Christ is the foundation, no other ! 1 Corinthains 3:11 For other foundation can [no man] lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Fellowcitzens with the saints, just like all that are believers in Christ, who are baptized with Christ.

Those believers baptized walk in Christ. ... Perfect Faith!

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;...



The apostles and prophets walked in Christ because they were believers that were baptized in Christ.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

Confirming in whom all the building fitly framed grow together... unto a holy temple in Christ. There is no doubting allowed in who and where we place our belief in. Nor is there question where Peter put his own faith.

Eph 2:21 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

In whom... confirming again what is being built together in Christ by the encouragement of God through the Spirit.. The Spirit of Truth

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Are you saying that Christ did not have the authority to build His Church upon the foundation of Peter?

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DeMaria, You can choice to put Peter as the foundation of your church.

My choice in mind and heart is Christ! Christ never build the Perfect Faith, or Our Father's House on Peter.. NEVER NEVER.. The Spirit of Truth is built on Christ!

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Originally Posted by De Maria

This is Catholic teaching. I see nowhere the terminology Scripture alone or only Scripture or anything that would indicate that the Church does not also have authority given by Christ nor that Traditions are no longer in force.

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Our Father's Word is telling us scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation. WOW! My choice is follow this source of salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, [which are able] to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

My choice is Truth in what scripture offers ..

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and [is]profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Are you asking me, what is needed in order to prove Sola Scriptura from these verses? If so, I would have to see the context of the entire message.

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I asked you a question point blank: DeMaria, Without discrediting the facts that are told to us in these scriptures. As Truth of Our Father, as the inspiration that Our Father gives, what else can be put above scripture? what is your choice above Truth?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Lets look at 2 Tim 1:
11 Wherein I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For which cause I also suffer these things: but I am not ashamed. For I know whom I have believed, and I am certain that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day. 13 Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me in faith, and in the love which is in Christ Jesus.

Note how St. Paul is teaching Oral Tradition. He is a preacher, an apostle and a teacher. And he instructs Timothy to Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me .

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Paul is telling us to hold form of sound words which he spoke in Faith, and the love in Christ.

2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.


Paul knew of his previous following of his fathers traditions.. Must I refer those scripture?

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Lets look at chapter 2:
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace which is in Christ Jesus: 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

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Paul speaking of us being strong in the Grace which is Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Still teaching St. Timothy to teach.

Chapter 3 you've provided, but let me emphasize the teaching aspect again:
16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

Note how he is preparing the man of God to teach others.

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THis is confirming scripture as the profitable for man to teach, and is the perfect man that does teach it.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

That is true. I choose to believe Scripture and obey my Church leaders:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

sincerely,

De Maria

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Free Will, we all have it, in mind and heart your choice will be known by Christ.

My choice is to be a child of God, and walk into the House of God to give Praise, Honor and Glory to "ONE" ... My Rock is Christ, and I do as Peter did, we are baptized and believe In Christ.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The Rock

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

While these books may or may not have been canonized at the Council of Laodicea, the Council provides historical proof that many of the books considered sacred by St. Jerome were considered sacred by that date.

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Being used, and being canonical or sacred are much different things. This is the problem throughout this discussion, and that is that there is no discernment regarding such key differences, nor the sources which are used. You will note that I also provided a Roman catholic source which showed that the additional books were added by your denomination at the council of Trent. But of course you won't consider that input because it does not agree with you! I use sources from all sides in order to get an unbalanced view.

sndbay
I go by what the bible clearly says.
Jesus was/is the founder on the foundation of the person He named Peter for his faith was like a rock.
Peace ad kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Being used, and being canonical or sacred are much different things. This is the problem throughout this discussion, and that is that there is no discernment regarding such key differences, nor the sources which are used. You will note that I also provided a Roman catholic source which showed that the additional books were added by your denomination at the council of Trent. But of course you won't consider that input because it does not agree with you! I use sources from all sides in order to get an unbalanced view.

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I never saw proof that “Trent added books,” If you did show proof, I'm afraid I was unimpressed, so much so, I don't recall it. But let me quote Trent one more time. No matter how the list of books in Session 4 of the Council of Trent is read, it is followed by the following statement. It removes any AMBIGUITY that the Scriptures referred to are those of St. Jerome's Vulgate:

“But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”

The Vulgate is the official Bible. Any English translation should conform to the intent of the Latin Vulgate.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I never saw proof that “Trent added books,” If you did show proof, I’m afraid I was unimpressed, so much so, I don't recall it.

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Judging before you see it then - that is called "prejudice".


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“St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries...For example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books. According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon. That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent”
(Source: The New Catholic Encyclopedia, The Canon)
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The Vulgate is the official Bible. Any English translation should conform to the intent of the Latin Vulgate.

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Perhaps of your religion. But not of mine.

JoeT777
Weather anyone says of believes otherwise the official bible of the Catholic Church Is the official verson of the bible as originally promulgated by The Church via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
In other words God directed it to happen as it did.
Everyone who uses a bible uses a Catholic book whether they want to believe it or not.
Some versions are missing some of the official books, so there are Not the complete Bible.
That is sad for there is much information, wisdom, and spirituality in those books called the Apcrypha.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Judging before you see it then - that is called "prejudice".

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Discernment isn't prejudice. In the sense that I have a prejudice for truth and logic, I agree with your statement.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

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“St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries...For example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books. According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon. That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent”
(Source: The New Catholic Encyclopedia, The Canon)
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So, what? St. Jerome couldn't have Canonized Scripture in and of his own authority. Pope Damasus Canonized Scripture and in 374. And again by Pope Innocent in 405

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Perhaps of your religion. But not of mine.

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No, it's not mine to possess, but it is God's Kingdom on earth, and yes I'm a member.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by arcura

JoeT777
Weather anyone says of believes otherwise the official bible of the Catholic Church Is the official verson of the bible as originally promulgated by The Church via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
In other words God directed it to happen as it did.
Everyone who uses a bible uses a Catholic book whether they want to believe it or not.
Some versions are missing some of the offical books, so there are Not the complete Bible.
That is sad for there is much information, wisdom, and spirituality in those books called the Apcrypha.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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I agree fully.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by arcura

JoeT777
Weather anyone says of believes otherwise the official bible of the Catholic Church Is the official verson of the bible as originally promulgated by The Church via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

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Then you are finally agreeing that the apochrypha is not in the Bible!

I was not aware that they had revoked their decision at Trent - when did this happen?

Tj3,
You said "not in my religion".
That is very interesting Joe and I and other Catholics are Christians who believe what was posted so...
Are you now saying that you are not a Christian?
Or worse yet, saying the 2 billion Catholics are not Christians?
Just wondering,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You said "not in my religion".
That is very interesting Joe and I and other Catholics are Christians who believe what was posted so....
Are you now saying that you are not a Christian?
Or worse yet, saying the 2 billion Catholics are not Christians?
Just wondering,
Fred

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Fred,

The pope himself called your denomination a religion by itself, so are saying that he erred? It is on vatican.va.

Do I believe that 2 billion Catholic are all Christians - No - I don't think ANYONE is a Christian because they belong to any church or denomination be they catholic, Lutheran, baptist, Orthodox or anything else. They are a Christian because they have received salvation through faith in the all sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross alone for their salvation. I have done so therefore am a Christian. I do believe that there are Christians in your denomination also.

Tj3,
Thank you for your personal explanation.
I believe that most if not all Catholics are Christians and saved by the grace of God,
I also believe that most other Christian denominations have a great many members who are saved by the frace of God.
I pray that they all are for I don't want any of them go to eternal hell.
The pope calls the Catholic Church Christian.
I have never heard of or seen any pope say otherwise.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Thank you for your personal explanation.
I believe that most if not all Catholics are Christians and saved by the grace of God,
I also believe that most other Christian denominations have a great many members who are saved by the frace of God.
I pray that they all are for I don't want any of them go to eternal hell.
The pope calls the Catholic Church Christian.
I have never heard of or seen any pope say otherwise.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Fred, The judgement remains in Christ hands, but I find the Spirit of Truth in scripture says, Our Father loves all His children. Those who believe and are baptized walk in Christ, and must believe in perfect faith. For in Christ we hold stedfast in love of The Spiritual Truth in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Eph 4:7-8 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

For The Perfect Faith in us, and the ministry

Eph 4:12 For the [perfecting of the saints,] for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

This is Till When? Scripture says until all come unity of the knowledge of the Son, to come a perfect man in Christ.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 thr 24 goes on to say until no more doctrines thrown around this way and that. But rather teaching the truth in love, and grow up into Christ in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ. Put on Christ the Rock , Walk in the Perfect Faith

Eph 4:26 thr 31 goes on to say neither give place to the devil. I, choice to view this as a warning, of protection and love.

Who and where does all this come from? To us on Earth from God.
Eph 4:9-10 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Who does Christ give to?

Eph 4:11 And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Then go back up and read Eph 4:12-13.. It's all here


I pray the readers can share the perfect faith that Christ brought us all.
Good Day to You

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Judging before you see it then - that is called "prejudice".


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“St. Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture. The situation remained unclear in the ensuing centuries...For example, John of Damascus, Gregory the Great, Walafrid, Nicolas of Lyra and Tostado continued to doubt the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books. According to Catholic doctrine, the proximate criterion of the biblical canon is the infallible decision of the Church. This decision was not given until rather late in the history of the Church at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the Old Testament Canon. That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent”
(Source: The New Catholic Encyclopedia, The Canon)
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Perhaps of your religion. But not of mine.

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This so called "New" Catholic Encyclopedia must be another of your anti-Catholic authorities pretending to be Catholic. Because St. Jerome himself defended the Deuterocanon as inspired LATER IN HIS LIFE. Of course, since your intent here is to malign the Catholic Church, you conveniently left that out.


That is called prejudice with malicious intent.

Besides the fact that St. Jerome included the Deuterocanon in his Latin Vulgate, here's more evidence that St. Jerome accepted the judgement of the Church in regards to the Deuterocanon:

Others point to St. Jerome's “rejection” of deuterocanonical material. While Jerome was originally suspicious of the “extra” Old Testament books, which he only knew in Greek, he fully accepted the judgment of the Church on the matter, as shown in a letter written in 402 A.D.:

What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? . . . I was not relating my own personal views [when I wrote the objections of the Jews to the longer form of Daniel in my introduction], but rather the remarks that [the Jews] are wont to make against us [Christians who accept the longer form of Daniel], (Against Rufinius, 11:33, emphasis added).[11]
CUF.org :: Catholics United for the Faith

Which makes me wonder your ethics TJ? Since you obviously knew that saintjoan was misrepresenting herself and you were helping her deceive the people of this forum. What does your Sola Scriptura morality say about lying and giving false witness?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

This so called "New" Catholic Encyclopedia must be another of your anti-Catholic authorities pretending to be Catholic.

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This speaks loudly - without even checking out anything about the source, you say that this encyclopedia, put out years ago by a Catholic University, is anti-Catholic.

This is the problem - you attack anything or anybody who dares to disagree with you, no matter what the facts are.

BTW, if you have an issue with saintjoan, deal with saintjoan. I am not responsible for any other users on this site. Or maybe you cannot deal with what saintjoan is saying, so you are trying to avoid her.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Which makes me wonder your ethics TJ? Since you obviously knew that saintjoan was misrepresenting herself and you were helping her deceive the people of this forum. What does your Sola Scriptura morality say about lying and giving false witness?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

This is the problem - you attack anything or anybody who dares to disagree with you, no matter what the facts are.

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Have either of you read Ephesians 4.. It was posted in #397

Eph 4:7-8 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9-10 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Eph 4:11 And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For Christ Has Told You

The judgement remains in Christ hands, The Spirit of Truth in scripture says, Our Father loves all His children. Those who believe and are baptized walk in Christ, and must believe in perfect faith. For in Christ we hold stedfast in love of The Spiritual Truth in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Eph 4:12 For the [perfecting of the saints,] for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: