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-   -   Can you lose your salvation? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=232826)

  • May 17, 2009, 05:50 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Back to the topic.....

    Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.

    How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?
    Remember the woman Jesus said go now and sin no more. Faith in HIM, and the law of oath by God's promise would SAVE them. It is true they were filthy rags under the law, yet the promise of priesthood in righteousness then was changed when Christ was anointed as our Saviour by HIS blood. The better way! Some might have been baptized by John, we don't know for sure who was and wasn't.

    Jesus sacrifice on the cross changed the priesthood, and the vail was taken down. The Faith in that ONE begotten Son of God restored what Adam (Adam means man as well) had caused by the curse of sin.

    The law of Faith is to be established, and we should acknowledge salvation is the law of Faith .. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
  • May 17, 2009, 06:07 AM
    cozyk
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    I disagree with this because, I believe in God, and HIS power of creation. It is only your own personal opinion when you follow your own pride. God tells us to deny ourselves and follow Christ. Following your own personal opinion verse what God can reveal to you, clearly is in darkness as the scripture reference.

    All souls belong to God, and we were created for HIS pleasure.

    I could offer scripture which is the WORD of GOD to back this up. Just let me know if you would like me to do that.

    ~In Christ

    p.s. Fred will always remain in peace and kindness, because it is in HIS heart of love.
    And you have your opinion of what God is saying, and Fred has his, and TJ has his. Which one is Gods?

    Who said anything about following your own pride? Pride equals ego and that's NOT what we should follow. The ego is selfish, guarded, greedy, and shallow. Go deeper than the ego. Go to the "I am". I am" my heart, soul, spirit, center of my essence. That is where God speaks.

    What good would offering scripture do? Maybe God in his infinite wisdom could re-write his words so that this bickering about "what he REALLY meant by that" would not be an issue. Offering scripture just muddies the water.

    I know about Fred. He IS a kind soul and I believe he has a huge heart filled with love and good intentions. I was just rattling his chain. Goes to show that even Fred is human when it comes to protecting his belief , when others disagree.
  • May 17, 2009, 06:22 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Remember the woman Jesus said go now and sin no more. Faith in HIM, and the law of oath by God's promise would SAVE them. It is true they were filthy rags under the law, yet the promise of priesthood in righteousness then was changed when Christ was anointed as our Saviour by HIS blood. The better way! Some might have been baptized by John, we don't know for sure who was and wasn't.

    Jesus sacrifice on the cross changed the priesthood, and the vail was taken down. The Faith in that ONE begotten Son of God restored what Adam (Adam means man as well) had caused by the curse of sin.

    The law of Faith is to be established, and we should acknowledge salvation is the law of Faith .. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
    Again, are you saying that there was one way to be saved in the OT under the priesthood, and a different way to be saved in the NT?

    If so, what specifically are you saying took away sins in the OT?
  • May 17, 2009, 06:26 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    The knowledge of each religious following in which you have studied has given reason for our differences. I have offered scripture being the WORD of GOD. My heart does not reflect HIS WORD to religions of demonations. You have posted three different times that the scripture in which was offered as GOD's WORD, gives you reason to think of Mormons.
    That is because it is usually the Mormons who try to say that baptism for the dead is a valid means of saving people. Scripture does not say that anywhere.

    Quote:
    Tom, Have you been baptized, if so, when and how?
    If you mean by water, yes, twice, the dates do not matter. If your question was aiming at something else, please advise.

    Ultimately, what I did, or you did, or anyone else did is of no consequence in this discussion because we do not base sound doctrine on the actions and experiences of men.
  • May 17, 2009, 06:27 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cozyk View Post
    And you have your opinion of what God is saying, and Fred has his, and TJ has his. Which one is Gods?
    God gave His opinion in the Bible.
  • May 17, 2009, 09:57 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cozyk View Post
    And you have your opinion of what God is saying, and Fred has his, and TJ has his. Which one is Gods?

    Jesus tells us God's will, which is much more then an opinion, and Jesus followed HIS Father's Will. This is what I hear and believe:

    Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    This is Faith in God

    2 Sa 22:21 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

    2 Sa 22:33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.

    2 Sa 22:36 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.
  • May 17, 2009, 11:37 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Again, are you saying that there was one way to be saved in the OT under the priesthood, and a different way to be saved in the NT?

    If so, what specifically are you saying took away sins in the OT?
    Salvation was written of in (Genesis 49:18) According to the promise of God (Isa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.)

    Christ would be that completeness of that promise, The Everlasting WORD.

    The OT was a promise given in faith according to the doctrine of life, with love, showing patience, follow the Will of God, and lving under the law.

    What SAVED them, the PROMISE, because I trust they were delivered up unto the LORD.


    Note: before the beginning of the world:

    2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    ***************************************

    Follow
    But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousnessThat the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    ***************************************
    2 Timothy 2:11-13 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Note: To whom, that is a follower of Christ:2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.


    Tom, Why don't you offer your heart of belief? Is it different then what I have said? Tell me your answer.
  • May 17, 2009, 11:59 AM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Salvation was written of in (Genesis 49:18) According to the promise of God (Isa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.)

    Christ would be that completeness of that promise, The Everlasting WORD.
    Okay - we agree.

    Quote:
    The OT was a promise given in faith according to the doctrine of life, with love, showing patience, follow the Will of God, and lving under the law.

    What SAVED them, the PROMISE, because I trust they were delivered up unto the LORD.
    So, I am still not entirely clear on your position - were they saved by obedience to the law, the animal sacrifices, or by the blood shed on the cross? In other words, something had to pay the price for sin - what was it?
  • May 17, 2009, 12:05 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    That is because it is usually the Mormons who try to say that baptism for the dead is a valid means of saving people. Scripture does not say that anywhere.
    I thought it was you that did not follow faith by denominations?

    The scriptures offered was the WORD of GOD... Read it as God's WORDS to you.

    1 Col 2:12     Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

    1 Cr 15:36 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    If you mean by water, yes, twice, the dates do not matter. If your question was aiming at something else, please advise.
    My question help me to discern better the measure of enlightenment that God might offer accordingly. I was baptized by my parents at birth, but I was brought to a period in life when that baptism was better recognized as a dedication of faith. I struggled most with the faith of baptism, when I gave birth to my first son who was premature. My heart searched for answers as to whether he had to be baptized immediately or risk that open door as the church instructed. My life has been pushed by the church rules, yet it was my love in Christ that brought me to follow HIM. Seven years ago I found my love in Christ brought much more assurance in following HIM, hearing HIM, and resting in HIM. I was baptized in a salt water pool giving my heart of faith only to HIM. BY my own life given to HIM and lived in HIM, I know there is a difference.

    Also I recognize that those searching and unsettled questions are God working in us.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Ultimately, what I did, or you did, or anyone else did is of no consequence in this discussion because we do not base sound doctrine on the actions and experiences of men.
    I would agree with that, because no one other then ourselves will be accountable to our choices which lead our ways. And it is God who reveals unto whom He chooses in according of HIS Will.
  • May 17, 2009, 12:21 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post

    So, I am still not entirely clear on your position - were they saved by obedience to the law, the animal sacrifices, or by the blood shed on the cross? In other words, something had to pay the price for sin - what was it?
    By Faith they were SAVED... Belief in the promise of God... Salvation... Just as we today would be under the law until it brings us unto Christ (the schoolmaster), they were under the law. Their law worked in animal sacrifices, but our's today is Chist blood. (the promised is here) If they live in accordance to God's will of righteousness, then they would be delivered up unto the LORD ..

    Niether OT or NT is based on works saving.. both are based on faith... yet we also know faith without works is dead. Today without Christ, and our righteousness of works that come from faith in HIM, we are dead. (James 2:6)


    (2 Timothy 3:10-11) offers an example.. faith brings salvation

    But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me

    2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
  • May 17, 2009, 12:38 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    By Faith they were SAVED... Belief in the promise of God... Salvation... Just as we today would be under the law until it brings us unto Christ (the schoolmaster), they were under the law. Their law worked in animal sacrifices, but our's today is Chist blood. (the promised is here) If they live in accordance to God's will of righteousness, then they would be delivered up unto the LORD..
    There are problems with this view:

    First, faith by itself will not save. Blood must be shed to pay the price for sins:

    Heb 9:22
    22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
    NKJV

    And second, the blood of animals will not work:

    Heb 10:4
    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
    NKJV

    If this were true, then Christ died in vain, since we could have simply continued the animals sacrifices combined with faith in God. This position minimalizes Christ sacrifice and indeed the necessity of the gospel.

    Neither OT or NT is based on works saving.. both are based on faith... yet we also know faith without works is dead. Today without Christ, and our righteousness of works that come from faith in HIM, we are dead. (James 2:6)

    Quote:
    (2 Timothy 3:10-11) offers an example.. faith brings salvation
    Faith is an essential part of salvation, but faith alone without the shedding of the blood on the cross will not save. There must be atonement for sin, and that is by shedding of blood, Christ's blood alone.

    How were those in the OT saved? By the only possible way to be saved. Faith in the Messiah. No, they had not seen Him yet, but their faith in the Messiah to come is what caused the blood on the cross to be applied to their sins. The timeline is no problem for God - He is outside of time.

    We have evidence of this truth in scripture. How was Moses saved?

    Heb 11:23-27
    23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's command. 24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
    NKJV

    And even the reference in 2 Timothy that you referred to tells us how the OT speaks of the gospel of Christ. There is no other way to be saved and never has been. If water baptism were essential now for salvation, it would have been essential then.
  • May 17, 2009, 12:40 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    I thought it was you that did not follow faith by denominations?
    I don't. It looks like your last message is just a repeat of what you posted before. Just posting the same verses again does not address the issues that I raised previously. If you have any response to the concerns that I raised, I am interested.
  • May 17, 2009, 12:52 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    There are problems with this view:

    First, faith by itself will not save. Blood must be shed to pay the price for sins:

    Heb 9:22
    22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
    NKJV
    Faith is the belief of the Begotten Son of God who came to shed HIS bood and the body that walked this earth as flesh showing the way..
  • May 17, 2009, 12:55 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Faith is the belief of the Begotten Son of God who came to shed HIS bood and the body that walked this earth as flesh showing the way..
    Then do you agree with me that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ on the cross, and that there was no other way in the OT times?
  • May 17, 2009, 12:58 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    And second, the blood of animals will not work:

    Heb 10:4
    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
    NKJV

    .
    Correct the works don't do it, but salvation was a promise from God... needing faith .. They were promised salvation (Genesis 49:18)
  • May 17, 2009, 01:00 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Correct the works don't do it, but salvation was a promise from God... needing faith .. They were promised salvation (Genesis 49:18)
    Do you agree with me that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ on the cross, and that there was no other way in the OT times?
  • May 17, 2009, 01:06 PM
    sndbay
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    Then do you agree with me that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ on the cross, and that there was no other way in the OT times?
    No because if you go back to reference scripture, salvation is = One Lord ONe Faith One Baptism

    From OT to NT the change is that Christ is confessed the begotten Son of God

    The one Faith body and blood Christ (NT)

    The one Faith promise Messiah/blood animal (OT)
  • May 17, 2009, 01:11 PM
    sndbay

    Tom do you trust God would be good on HIS promise of salvation to those in the OT if they would indeed loving, patience, and live by the doctrine of Life. Would he deliver them up to Christ as He promised?

    Again faith without works is dead! (OT) and (NT)
  • May 17, 2009, 01:12 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    No because if you go back to reference scripture, salvation is = One Lord ONe Faith One Baptism
    But the question keeps coming up - which baptism - the Holy Spirit or Water?

    Quote:
    From OT to NT the change is that Christ is confessed the begotten Son of God

    The one Faith body and blood Christ (NT)

    The one Faith promise Messiah/blood animal (OT)
    So what atoned for their sins in the OT if not the blood that Christ shed on the cross?
  • May 17, 2009, 01:13 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Tom do you trust God would be good on HIS promise of salvation to those in the OT if they would indeed loving, patience, and live by the doctrine of Life. Would he deliver them up to Christ as He promised?

    Again faith without works is dead! (OT) and (NT)
    I trust God, but I am not sure that we agree regarding what the OT saints were trusting God for, or how they were saved. That is why I am asking you questions to find out what your beliefs are.

    BTW, I am not sure that we agree also on what "Faith without works is dead" means.

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