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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

Quoting classy T:
....Christ spoke in parables but he didn't ALWAYS speak in parables.

I agree that Christ didn't ALWAYS speak in parables. But my point is that every word of the Old Testament is also the words of Christ. Remember Christ is God. And Moses leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt and into Canaan, the promised land, is a historical parable. Egypt representing the kingdom of Satan, Moses representing Christ, the people of Israel representing those who will become saved, and Canaan representing the kingdom of Heaven. And throughout the whole Bible God uses other incidents as parables to HIDE spiritual meaning. Often the problem is recognizing those passages that contain hidden spiritual meaning.

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I don't know who told you this, but they're full of something other than the Holy spirit. The Bible tells us that certain things in the Old Testament are types of New Testament things, but this declaration is just silly.

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The spirit entity that the witch of Endor saw and spoke with could NOT have been Samuel. The souls of the saved are secure in heaven with Christ until the Day of the Rapture. They are NOT free to be summoned back to Earth whenever some psychic feels the urge. Remember that the witch was a servant of Satan, and the spirits she was able to conjure up were fallen angels who also serve only their master. Their master is the Father of Lies and his servants work at DECEIVING everyone who listens to them. And God permitted all this deception to be recorded in the Bible for His own purposes.

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Then the Bible itself is the one that was deceiving, because it clearly says that it WAS Samuel, and that he gave an accurate prediction of how Saul was to die. The witch was terrified out of her gourd, not because she saw a spirit; she was used to that, and expected her "familiar spirit" to show up posing as Samuel. What scared her to death was when Samuel himself actually appeared. I don't know where you get this stuff, but it's contrary to the plain words of Scripture, so guess which one I'm going to believe.

Quoting dwashbur:
so guess which one I'm going to believe.

Your game of bait and switch is really annoying. And I don't care what you believe. You are the one who is a silly and pompous a**.

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

Quoting dwashbur:
so guess which one I'm going to believe.

Your game of bait and switch is really annoying. And I don't care what you believe. You are the one who is a silly and pompous a**.

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Bait and switch :confused: But once again it becomes clear that the ones with the weakest arguments are the ones who usually descend into name-calling. Thanks for clearing that up.

Quoting dwashbur:
"...but this declaration is just SILLY."

Here's an example of "name calling" from your previous post. Or does it not count as name calling because yourself is above such things ?

"...they're full of something other than the Holy spirit." What would you call that comment of yours ? What are they supposedly full of ? I'd call that a BORDERLINE rude remark. Of course you may think of yourself as extremely clever. But I'm also clever enough to recognize a veiled insult.

It seems you're very willing to dish it out, but not so willing to accept the same kind of treatment.

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

[And I don't care what you believe. You are the one who is a silly and pompous a**.

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A true christian at work. :)

Quoting NeedKarma:
"A true christian at work"

I suppose you think that is helpful ? Truly unbiased ?

It's crystal clear to me where your loyalty is.

I suppose the SUBSTANCE of the original question has no real place here at all. It's just a free-for-all "bash the newbie" for being vulnerable and making the mistake returning insult for insult.

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

It's crystal clear to me where your loyalty is.

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Yes, with my kids. I couldn't care less if this website exploded tomorrow. But I know one thing, I don't call people what you call people and call myself a christian.

Quoting NeedKarma:
"...call myself a christian."

Did I call myself a Christian ? I don't seem to recall. The topic of this particular category is Christianity. That much is true.

I am interested in having meaningful dicussion about the Bible. If that means I have to "kick some butt" to get it, I will. Clearly the senior members here, of which I am NOT one, don't mind at all dishing out the occasional gratuitous rude remark.

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

Quoting dwashbur:
"...but this declaration is just SILLY."

Here's an example of "name calling" from your previous post. Or does it not count as name calling because yourself is above such things ?

"...they're full of something other than the Holy spirit." What would you call that comment of yours ? What are they supposedly full of ? I'd call that a BORDERLINE rude remark. Of course you may think of yourself as extremely clever. But I'm also clever enough to recognize a veiled insult.

It seems you're very willing to dish it out, but not so willing to accept the same kind of treatment.

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Nice dodging. Once again, rather than address the issues, you sidestep into personal stuff. I addressed statements and viewpoints, but obviously that distinction is beyond your level of scholarship. So you dance away again. Surprise, surprise.

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

I am interested in having meaningful dicussion about the Bible. If that means I have to "kick some butt" to get it, I will.

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In my world one does not have to "kick butt" to have a meaningful discussion, they occur naturally when people treat each other with respect. In fact the kicking of the butt seems to be counter-intuitive to a discussion.

Quoting dwashbur:
"...sidestep into personal stuff..."

Perhaps you're right. But for me it is personal. I find it extremely difficult to separate your abrasive style from the objective part of your responses. So difficult that I totally fail to see any real coherence and rationality in your addressing the issues. You seem to excel at being critical without offering the slightest positive feedback whatsoever. What about some Bible verses to support your critical and incisive point of view ?

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
"But my point is that every word of the Old Testament is also the words of Christ."

You claim to have responded to that issue and others ? Here is your response, and I quote: I don't know who told you this, but they're full of something other than the Holy spirit. I don't call that an objective response. It's a VEILED INSULT. What Bible reference did you give to support your rude remark ?

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
"But my point is that every word of the Old Testament is also the words of Christ."

You claim to have responded to that issue and others ? Here is your response, and I quote: I don't know who told you this, but they're full of something other than the Holy spirit. I don't call that an objective response. It's a VEILED INSULT. What Bible reference did you give to support your rude remark ?

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That was not the issue I responded to and you know it. You keep doing this, and I'm not going to play your childish game any more. As for your last question, I'll answer it when you answer the same question about this:

"You are the one who is a silly and pompous a**."

I'm done with you, kid. Come back when you grow up a little.

Quoting dwashbur:
"Nice dodging. Once again, rather than address the issues, you sidestep into personal stuff."

I don't deny what you've referred to above. What would be the point ?

But I must add my own observation to yours. I'm not the only one. THERE'S QUITE A LOT OF FANCY FOOTWORK GOING ON with this thread, and with almost every other thread that I've had any interest in ON THIS SITE.

Posters jumping in and out at their PERSONAL discretion. That's a polite way of saying that when it gets a tad too uncomfortable, or beyond their usual powers of reason, they conveniently "slip away." Of course it's perfectly understandable. But please, don't try to make it sound like I'm avoiding serious issues. I'm still here. And I'm not afraid of that ugly word DISAGREEMENT.

Headstrong,

Let me assure you that you really are not all that intimidating. The problem is because you do seem to have a chip on your shoulder ( just my observation). I always pop in when I see your name on a post just to see what trouble you are causing and you never disappoint me. :) Perhaps that is why other posters jump in at their "personal descretion". Just a thought. :)

NK- I don't think that Headstrong calls himself a Christian ( not sure what he is) BUT.. as a Christian woman, I don't always act perfect. It is shocking, I know. Christians are sinners saved by grace.. they aren't perfect don't claim to be and yes, sometimes get their feathers ruffled. So don't take the high road... I've read some of your posts over the years. Just saying

Dave,

Thanks for backing my comments about Samuel up! You are exactly right. :)

Quoting classyT:
Thanks for backing my comments about Samuel up! You are exactly right.

The amount of back-slapping and self-congratulation that goes on here is totally counter to the spirit of earnest critical evaluation of other points of view. Does anyone in this category EVER consider that they may have to ACTUALLY RETHINK their most cherished and long held doctrines ? Not because any particular person says so, but because the Bible supports such a point of view.

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

Quoting classyT:
Thanks for backing my comments about Samuel up! You are exactly right.

The amount of back-slapping and self-congratulation that goes on here is totally counter to the spirit of earnest critical evaluation of other points of view. Does anyone in this category EVER consider that they may have to ACTUALLY RETHINK their most cherished and long held doctrines ? Not because any particular person says so, but because the Bible supports such a point of view.

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Fine, let's get into it. You said this:

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The spirit entity that the witch of Endor saw and spoke with could NOT have been Samuel. The souls of the saved are secure in heaven with Christ until the Day of the Rapture. They are NOT free to be summoned back to Earth whenever some psychic feels the urge.

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There is not a single actual biblical quote here, about the En-Dor incident, about where the "souls of the saved" are or anything else, just blanket statements.

1 Samuel 28:12 says:

"When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice." Note that the text says she saw Samuel. Not a fake spirit, not her familiar, she saw Samuel.

Verse 14 says "Saul knew it was Samuel." Not a fake spirit, not her familiar, not a demon, but Samuel.

Verse 15 says "Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?'"

Not a fake spirit, not her familiar, not a demon, but Samuel. God's Word, which you yourself say was dictated word for word, says explicitly that the personage speaking to Saul her was Samuel. Not a fake spirit, not the witch's familiar, not a demon, but Samuel.

In the next section, Samuel berates Saul for coming to him and then predicts when and how Saul will die. The predictions happened exactly as Samuel said. Once again, God's Word says it was Samuel himself who made these predictions, not something fake.

So, those are the plain words of Scripture. Obviously this even happened because God allowed it, not because the medium had any actual power over Samuel. But that doesn't change the fact that it WAS Samuel that she and Saul spoke to.

Okay, based on the clear teaching of the God-inspired Bible, are you prepared to change your view on this matter?

Quoting dwashbur:
"Fine, let's get into it."

I have read part of your posting, and I'm anxious to give you a thorough reply. But right now you're going to have to wait. There's something else I have to take care of. But I'll be back.

Quoting dwashbur:
"Okay, based on the clear teaching of the God-inspired Bible, are you prepared to change your view on this matter?"

NO!! I am not going to change my view simply because YOU say it's "clear."

King James translates the Hebrew in verse 14 as Saul "PERCEIVED." That's how I accept it, for the time being.

At this point I'd like to repeat that Hope12 has given the most correct Biblical answer to the asker's original question. Though I believe that his reference to Acts 24:15 is in need of further clarification.


At this point I'm going to sign off. To be continued...

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Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy

At this point I'd like to repeat that Hope12 has given the most correct Biblical answer to the asker's original question. Though I believe that his reference to Acts 24:15 is in need of further clarification.


At this point I'm going to sign off. To be continued....

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We are on the edge of our seats... :rolleyes:

The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohl′ and its Greek equivalent hai′des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge′en‧na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).
What happens to us when we die? The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: “The dead know nothing . . . In the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.” (New International Version) Scripturally, death is a state of nonexistence. The dead have no awareness, no feelings, no thoughts
Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death. What, then, is hell?
Consider also the case of the righteous man Job, who suffered much. Wishing to escape his plight, he pleaded: “Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell [Sheol], and hide me till thy wrath pass?” (Job 14:13, Douay Version) How unreasonable to think that Job desired to go to a fiery-hot place for protection! To Job, “hell” was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.

In our time the gospel is really simple. May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment. It is God's word. Believe the warning, and humble yourself under His mighty hand. It MAY BE that God will bestow His grace on us.

Headstrong,

What exactly am I suppose to do? Repent from accepting the Lord Jesus as my savior? Repent for believing that I have been saved by his blood. Repent for believing by Grace through faith in HIM is the way to salvation. Repent for getting baptized after I accepted the free gift. Repent from renewing my mind daily. For having a relationship with Jesus. Repent from experiencing his goodness to be daily. SO THAT I CAN... believe a warning to a day of judgement that we are instructed that NO MAN knows the day or hour. Worry like crazy that the finished work of Jesus is NOT enough. Hope and pray that I was handpicked by God to be saved in the end.

You are goofy and your little gospel of doomsday is goofy and FALSE and completely unbiblical. In the end... I believe GOD.

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rr man asked: I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever.

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The quote is from Revelation 14:11. "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." The word "for" is translated from the Greek word G1519 in Strong's Lexicon. That same Greek word is translated as "to" in Matthew 7:13 "to destruction." Matthew 8:28 "to the other side." Matthew 8:34 "to meet Jesus."

We know from other parts of the Bible that the unsaved dead have no conscious existence anymore at all. See Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Isaiah 26:14. Therefore, since God does not speak out of both sides of His mouth, we know that the rising smoke of their torment CANNOT be FOR ever.

From other parts of the Bible we can learn that eternity (ever) begins Oct. 21, 2011. So we can change the translated preposition "for" to "to." Because we are using it as the original Greek language will allow. (See the references to Matthew above.) And doing so will make the verse in Revelation read "to ever and ever." This rendering makes it harmonious with Ecclesiastes and with Isaiah.

In conclusion the smoke rises only until the Day of Judgment is completed, and eternity in the new heavens and the new earth has begun. In other words until or "to ever and ever." And we have NOT broken any rules of changing the original language of the Bible. Either adding to or subtracting from it. We have only changed the translation looking at how the very same word is used in other parts of the Bible. And thus we have arrived at a much more harmonious understanding of what God originally intended to say.