And who wrote down those words?
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And who wrote down those words?
That's a completely different issue. But if you want to question the reliability of the Gospel accounts, then you have to question ALL of the words. Not just the ones that appeal to your preconceptions, but ALL of them. Do you want to go there?
And if you only want to appeal only against SOME of them, then you must have good reasons for those doubts. You never have in the past, and I feel certain you don't now.
Your response was well-written and thought-provoking until this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
It wasn't intended to be personal. Just ignore it.Quote:
You never have in the past, and I feel certain you don't now.
Forgive me if I offended you. I sometimes just don't know how to respond to you. This has all been talked about in abundance months ago, so I guess I don't see the point of your question now, but I did not intend to be harsh.
Let's not worry about hell. Instead, as Jesus urged, "love one another."
https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net...1g&oe=63E67D23
I think the point is that salvation is not based upon good works, but rather is verified by our good works. Otherwise, it does not fit in with the rest of scripture.
To neglect to tell a person about a day of coming judgment, which is spoken of in that very Matthew 25 passage as well as many others, is not an act of love, but rather an act of hate.
I disagree. Salvation is love in action.
What is your scripture for that? Paul makes it very clear in Romans 3 that salvation can never be earned by good works, a truth also made clear in John 3 and a number of other passages.
Jesus' death on the cross was love in action.
I didn't say anything about earning salvation. Just love. Love one another.
Sure you did. "Salvation is love in action."
Jesus did the earning by giving up His life for us. Now we are to love others with the same intensity and totality as He loved us.
Preach -- and demonstrate by your own actions -- selfless love.
So in what way is neglecting to tell a person about a coming day of judgment an act of "selfless love"?Quote:
Preach -- and demonstrate by your own actions -- selfless love.
The concern about and even fear of "hell" is not the correct incentive to do good, to love. We don't say (and teach our children to say), "I'm not going to punch my sibling (or lie to Mom or kick the dog or shoplift) because then I will end up in hell."
So Jesus was wrong in what He said?
Wrong about what? A day of judgment? Judgment isn't necessarily negative.
Judgment - the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing a conclusion.
Oh come on. That's ridiculous and you know it. Your definition can fit "judgment" in some uses, but clearly not in the way it is used in Mt. 25. Every single author in the NT mentions a coming day of judgment. It's just interesting that they felt people should know about this, but you have decided otherwise. Do you know more than them?
They were male, just like you. They wanted people they considered bad to suffer in Hell FOREVER!!!! They punished their misbehaving children, made them sit on the naughty chair and spanked them so they'd be good.
You might want to consider that sometimes you're just wrong, and it has nothing to do with gender. Even worse, you have included Jesus in that plainly wrong group.
Jesus paid the price for all of us. And He didn't have children. Oh, yeah, "Scripture records few instances of Jesus interacting with children, but in each one we see Jesus treat the children with kindness and love, therefore showing how much He values them."
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-and-children.html
Do you think there is some chance that they knew more than "Wondergirl"? Well, it's hard to imagine you would say that about Jesus, that being a man, he wants everyone considered bad to suffer in Hell FOREVER, but it seems to be what you do when you are plainly wrong. Rather than just change your views, you lash out.Quote:
They were male, just like you. They wanted people they considered bad to suffer in Hell FOREVER!!!!
My point was how easy it is to punish children instead of loving them and teaching them a better way. I spanked my older son once because he was about three and ran heedlessly into the street. I never spanked him again. I found loving ways to teach. I'm sure that's Jesus' way too.
.Why? Because Jesus would have to be just like you? Are you the example of righteous conduct now? I think you have it backwards.Quote:
I'm sure that's Jesus' way too
You believe one thing. The writers of the NT, and Jesus as well, believed something else. I'm going with them.
Hell (perpetual fire like in the garbage dump, Gehenna) was the threat for better behavior..."If you don't believe and do good to others, you're going to hell." Like parents say to their kids, "If you don't do [X], [Y] will happen to you."
You are beginning to catch on.Quote:
."If you don't believe and do good to others, you're going to hell."
That's the threat. Not at all Christlike.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Not Christlike? The words came from Jesus. How much more Christlike could that be? I think you meant that the words are not Wondergirl-like.
How do you know Jesus actually said that? Those words definitely aren't His style.
If you don't know what Jesus said, then how could you possibly know what his "style" is? What you really mean is that those words are not YOUR style.
Jesus' style is love, not punishment in hell.
My younger (preschooler) son was grocery shopping with me. While waiting in the checkout line with me, he removed a candy bar off the adjacent display rack and slid the candy into his pants pocket. At home, I happened to see him pull out the candy bar and asked him where it came from. He told me what he had done. I stayed calm and told him that he'd have to pay for the candy because I hadn't paid for it when we were shopping. We immediately drove back to the grocery store and found the owner. My son explained what he had done. I then gave my son money for the candy bar, my son gave the money to the owner, the owner shook my son's hand and thanked him for his honesty. My son and I returned home. He never stole again because he understood that basic principle of shopping -- merchandise and money exchange.
Of course, I could have stayed home, spanked my son for his theft, then let him eat his ill-gotten gain. Would he have learned anything?
But how do you know that? As you put it, "How do you know Jesus actually said that?"Quote:
Jesus' style is love, not punishment in hell.
Hell and threats of sending sinful humans there is the scare tactic by equally sinful humans who hope (and say) other humans are more sinful than they are.
Did Jesus actually say "Send the wicked humans to hell!"?
But you avoided the question. How do you know what his "style" was? As you put it, "How do you know Jesus actually said that?" How do you know what he said?
So that was true of Jesus? After all, he was certainly warning us.Quote:
Hell and threats of sending sinful humans there is the scare tactic by equally sinful humans who hope (and say) other humans are more sinful than they are.
It just amazes me how far you will go to admit that your views do not align with what Jesus said. Wouldn't it be better to simply say you accept anything he said as long as it lines up with what you already believe?Quote:
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
How do you know Jesus said any of that?
But jesus = love. In John 13:34, Jesus mentions this phrase specifically, stating “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” He continues, “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (13:35)
How do you know Jesus said that?
Faith.
Plus, He knows the human heart. He knows humans don't want to love and be loved out of fear of hellfire, because it's required.
How do you know that?
He's shown me all my life that it's true.
You’ve been guiding yourself. You accept what you like and reject the rest. Jesus certainly has not taught you to ignore his many statements which don’t suit you.
And you ignore my many statements that don't suit you. Yet, I'm right.
Uhm...you're not Jesus, so I can easily ignore your many statements that don't agree with his and are thus flat wrong.Quote:
And you ignore my many statements that don't suit you.
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