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Free will allows each person to make a choice for good or for evil, is the ability to act at one's own discretion, is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.
God gave us free will so we aren't His puppets, so we can make our own choices to do good or evil, i.e. to sin.
But you said earlier we are subject to sin. If that is true, then how are we able to act at our own discretion? Paul's chapter 7 passage does not agree with you.
You must choose one or the other. You cannot logically take both.
We all are subject to sin, to temptation, to doing bad things, evil things. Thank God for giving us the victory, that we recognize sin possibilities and, with His Son's help, have the discernment to say no to sin. No disagreement with Paul whatsoever.
"We are all subject to sin." Oh? Then you don't have free will.
Earlier you ridiculed Paul's writing ("I didn't want to do that but golly gee whiz sin got into me and made me do it. I had no choice."), and yet now you claim to agree with it.
You seem to be confused.
Good night.
We are all subject to sin occasion by occasion, by choice. We can sin or we can not sin. We are free to do either. That's free will.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I was poking fun at YOU and your misunderstanding, not at Paul.Quote:
Earlier you ridiculed Paul's writing ("I didn't want to do that but golly gee whiz sin got into me and made me do it. I had no choice."), and yet now you claim to agree with it.
No,you do not understand what free will is.Quote:
You seem to be confused.
Good night.
Then we are not subject to sin. It's one or the other for, dear WG, you cannot be subject to the control of something else and yet still be free. Sorry, but you are violating a very simple concept. The founding fathers understood that we could not be subject to the King of England and yet still be free. They understood what you seem unwilling to acknowledge.Quote:
We can sin or we can not sin.
I did not misunderstand Paul. I simply quoted Paul without attaching any interpretation to it. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...34#post3882934
You are the one who claimed to understand what he meant. This is your quote.
I do like the way this site preserves what is posted. It comes in handy, especially when someone has painted herself into a proverbial corner.Quote:
He must not have believed that God gave mankind free will. Paul: "I didn't want to do that but golly gee whiz sin got into me and made me do it. I had no choice."
You are thinking of sin as the condition. I am writing about it as an act. Even Christians sin (the act of sinning).Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Then what is it that people are "subject" to? To be "subject to" has the meaning of being controlled by, so what is it that people are controlled by?
We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin; we are subject to sinful actions, temptations to do wrong things. Jesus' love and sacrifice didn't take the sin condition away but did provide God's forgiveness for our daily acts of sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Then you are saying we are not free, for how can a "bound" person be considered free?Quote:
We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin;
You are not daily beset by temptations, urges to lie/cheat/steal/disrespect another, etc.?
You are being evasive. You have just said we are all "bound", and yet you have claimed that we are "free". You need to explain how a bound person can be free.
If you can.
Where did I say we are free?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
#45. "We are all subject to sin occasion by occasion, by choice. We can sin or we can not sin. We are free to do either. That's free will."
Honestly, I have no idea why you would ask that. You know full well that the core of your argument has been an appeal to free will, so to ask, "Where did I say we are free?" is really wild. But if you want to argue about it, I'll rephrase it.
You have just said we are all "bound", and yet you have claimed that we have free will and are free to choose what we do. You need to explain how a bound person can have freedom of will/freedom of choice.
My apologies for the "evasive garbage" comment. I get frustrated here with these round the Maypole discussions and I let it get to me. That was on me.
WE Know that God gave Man Dominion and Authority, right?Quote:
The whole "look around you" misses the question. It's not "what's going on," it's "who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"
here’s Luke 4:5–7: “And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, ‘To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.
Satan will have his hour: Revelation 20:7 (The binding of Satan implied restraint put upon his power and freedom of action; the loosing means the removing of these restraints.) here we find the vision picturing to us how Christendom will be invaded by the influences of the evil one.
I might not be touching on the subject matter. I'm still trying to figure it out myself.
I think it has more to do with God giving Human (body) All dominion and Authority... than having human (a body) giving that authority to Satan.
Genesis 1:28Quote:
You have exalted Your word above all Your name
And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Means; Humans are 100% in charge (God will not interfere unless we give him Authority) of the goings on in our body (life) in this World.
1 John 5:19
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Like I've been saying, God gave mankind free will to do good or to do evil in this world. Every day we see evidence that that's going on -- the newspapers are full of mankind's cruelty to mankind (and to animals), yet there are also reports of mankind's love and care. And God is watching....Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
It has nothing to do with Mankind! It is not you (as Mankind) that can do anything in or of yourself.Quote:
God gave mankind free will to do good or to do evil in this world.
Need I inform you? Man's love is not God's love. We are either Sons of God or of the Devil!!! Yet we will all die a Human death.Quote:
mankind's love and care.
Could you please drop your free-will malarkey... it's off-topic.
God has a new arrangement - Release dominion of sin over your life.
Read Genesis 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Please stop mixing up your reasoning points, your metaphors!Quote:
Man's love is not God's love. We are either Sons of God or of the Devil!!! Yet we will all die a Human death.
It's the whole ball of wax.Quote:
Could you please drop your free-will malarkey... it's off-topic.
What does that have to do with this thread?Quote:
God has a new arrangement - Release dominion of sin over your life.
Plus, releasing the dominion of sin over my life says I do have free will and can make that decision.
You've also been saying mankind is bound to sin. And as has been pointed out repeatedly, those two positions are contradictory. You have yet to explain how both can work together.Quote:
Like I've been saying, God gave mankind free will to do good or to do evil in this world
That is at least going somewhat in the right direction. However, that cannot be extended to mankind in general.Quote:
Plus, releasing the dominion of sin over my life says I do have free will and can make that decision.
You're a member of mankind. Do you ever do mean or bad things, break a commandment, i.e., sin? By choice? Do you ever choose to do good?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You are being evasive. You are describing pure free will, but you know that is not the question. So again, how can mankind be bound/subject to sin and yet have free will? For one to be true, the other cannot be true.
Evasive? Any one of us can make the choice to do a bad thing or make the choice to do a good thing. Each of us has done bad things AND good things today.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So again, how can mankind be bound/subject to sin and yet have free will? For one to be true, the other cannot be true.
We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin; we are subject to sinful actions, temptations to do wrong things. We have the inclination, a choice, free will, to do a sin, a bad thing. Or we can do good.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I just realized. You don't like the word "bound". You think if sin binds us, we are powerless to do good actions. How about: our free will allows us to do good things but too often is restricted by sin so that we also do bad things.
You are still trying to have your cake and eat it, too. After starting with, "We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin; we are subject to sinful actions, " you then continue with, "temptations to do wrong things. We have the inclination, a choice, free will, to do a sin, a bad thing. Or we can do good." To be "bound" and "subject to" is not the same as merely being tempted or having an inclination.
Even worse is to suggest that being "restricted by sin" causes us to, "also do bad things." So you finally reach a conclusion that we do not, in fact, really have free will since, being restricted by sin, we therefore do bad things. Very interesting!!
You earlier stated, "You (JL) are thinking of sin as the condition. I am writing about it as an act." But now you say, "We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin." You need to make your mind up.
I have suggested no such thing. These are your utterly contradictory ideas we are discussing.Quote:
You think if sin binds us, we are powerless to do good actions.
Do you do bad things each day?
Do you do good things each day?
Yes and yes.
Now are you able to explain your plainly contradictory ideas? Evidently, no. This has become tiresome. If you can offer up an explanation, then we can discuss it. Until then, you are left with the utterly nonsensical position of trying to say people are bound by and subject to sin, and yet those same people have free will. I suspect you are trying to land somewhere in the middle, saying that we exercise free will when we can, from time to time, break free from our bondage to sin, your position thus being one of "occasional (transitory) free will".
1. You have the free will to always do good things. Why don't you do good things all the time?
2. You have the free will to always do bad things. Why don't you do bad things all the time?
You cannot defend your nonsensical position by asking questions. Put your mind to work. Explain how a person bound to and subject to sin can, in any sense, have genuine free will.
So you say. That's what I'm asking you to defend. You plainly cannot do so.Quote:
You have the free will to always do good things.
Thus, your comment says you are not free to do good. Everything you do is negative at one level or another. You have no choice (free will) in the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
In Christ, you do have the freedom (free will) to always do good things. So why don't you?Quote:
So you say. That's what I'm asking you to defend. You plainly cannot do so.
Wonderful post except, sadly, it is untrue. I have said nothing about not being free. My statement ( Explain how a person bound to and subject to sin can, in any sense, have genuine free will.) was based upon a comment by YOU. A little honesty would be helpful here.Quote:
Thus, your comment says you are not free to do good. Everything you do is negative at one level or another. You have no choice (free will) in the matter.
We have discussed this previously. The key in your statement is to be "in Christ". However, you have said that mankind in general has free will and yet is also bound by/subject to sin. That is the statement I wish you would defend.Quote:
In Christ, you do have the freedom (free will) to always do good things .
What's your definition of free will?
What's your explanation of your contradictory views? Asking an abundance of questions just comes across as a diversion on your part. Why are so afraid to attempt an answer???
What are my contradictory views? I don't see any.
That could very well be true, sad to say, but I'll post it again for the 412th time. Keep hope alive!!
"However, you have said that mankind in general has free will and yet is also bound by/subject to sin. That is the statement I wish you would defend."
Also here. "So again, how can mankind be bound/subject to sin and yet have free will? For one to be true, the other cannot be true."
Here as well. "Explain how a person bound to and subject to sin can, in any sense, have genuine free will."
And again. "Until then, you are left with the utterly nonsensical position of trying to say people are bound by and subject to sin, and yet those same people have free will. I suspect you are trying to land somewhere in the middle, saying that we exercise free will when we can, from time to time, break free from our bondage to sin, your position thus being one of 'occasional (transitory) free will.'"
So those four were on this page alone. Still, I'm sure you just overlooked them...somehow...or other...you know.
God created Adam and Eve, then gave them free will. He asked them not to do one simple thing. They decided to do that forbidden thing and thus they disobeyed God. Sin entered the world.
Are we on the same page so far?
Yes, a page that you have posted several times. Hopefully, an explanation of your seemingly contradictory position, thus far unposted, will soon follow. Keep hope alive!!
I started this with a question about a Bible passage. It's turned into word games.
Quote:
You are still trying to have your cake and eat it, too. After starting with, "We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin; we are subject to sinful actions, " you then continue with, "temptations to do wrong things. We have the inclination, a choice, free will, to do a sin, a bad thing. Or we can do good." To be "bound" and "subject to" is not the same as merely being tempted or having an inclination.
Even worse is to suggest that being "restricted by sin" causes us to, "also do bad things." So you finally reach a conclusion that we do not, in fact, really have free will since, being restricted by sin, we therefore do bad things. Very interesting!!
You earlier stated, "You (JL) are thinking of sin as the condition. I am writing about it as an act." But now you say, "We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin." You need to make your mind up.
You think if sin binds us, we are powerless to do good actions.
I have suggested no such thing. These are your utterly contradictory ideas we are discussing.
I suppose a person could look at it like that. If you would prefer, I'll drop it. Still not too sure how to piece together free will with the idea that we are subject to sin, and there is plainly going to be no answer to that, but it has gone on too long. I'd agree with that.
Your self-identity is an illusion, who or what you identity as is just a concept created by your thoughts. The you that you think you currently are (your deepest sense of I am) are just thoughts that pop in and out of existence from nothingness, and you have no control over them.
Don’t believe me? Try this right now, sit down with your eyes close and see if you can stop your thoughts (good luck).
Did you notice that all you have are thoughts? Thoughts on top of thoughts on top of thoughts, and there is no you that is doing the thoughts, the thoughts are doing you! The you that you think you really are is called the ego, your entire identity is the ego. So once you realize that you as perceiver is an illusion than you realize that there is no you that there is no free will. How can there be free will if there is no you in control? Romans 7: For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing” (verse 19). In short, Paul was saying, I do what I don’t want to do (thoughts are doing you)!
Romans 7: For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing” (verse 19). In short, Paul was saying, I do what I don’t want to do (thoughts are doing you)!
The Fall occurred because man used his free will to listen to Satan. No longer having free will (as we know it). How can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? We have become sin aka darkness. It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free.
We will always be Darkness (we will always be sinners). God does not make us light. Jesus (is that light) gives us light...Light overcomes our darkness. It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person.
Your idea of free will - Without the opportunity to sin, there is no opportunity to choose for God by choosing against something else? Would this explain the tree of good and Evil that was in the garden??
@Wondergirl; You act as if "Oh I'm just so full of love, I think I'll go produce some fruit!"
Instead, maybe we should be thinking - why it is we don't love God (not as we should love him)?
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