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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

If you would simply continue to read the John passage, Jesus elaborates on John 3:16 by saying, "He who believes in Him is not condemned. But he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

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Does John 3:18 mean unbelievers go to hell?

Absolutely not!

Here is a link for those of you read such things - it's an excellent explanation why conservative Christians misread John 3:18 (and verses before and after). Too long to post it here and too long to condense it to post. If there are still some of you who are wondering about this very un-Christ-like notion, this link will be very helpful.


https://leewoof.org/2017/12/08/does-...ns-go-to-hell/


You ask what I believe the "outcome for unbelievers" will be. Other things are more important. For you, love your neighbor and the rest will take care of itself. "Perish" has been explained and defined several times now.

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You ask what I believe the "outcome for unbelievers" will be.

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Hmmm. You still do not have the courage to answer that question. I could ask another. If unbelievers do not go to hell, then who does?

John 3:18 does mean, without question, that unbelievers will be judged, found guilty, and condemned. There is no other sensible way to see it, so long as "condemned" means what it has meant for centuries. Now you can argue as to what they will be condemned to. Revelation 20 answers that question.

Might add that the 3:18 verse does not simply say unbelievers will be condemned, but that they already stand condemned. It's the same idea of 3:16 that unbelievers are not simply going to perish, but are perishing even now. That is their current state, and it is what Jesus came to rescue us from. Thus the old hymn titled "Rescue the Perishing".

I did read your link. Talk about a rambling discourse! He lost me very early on with this statement: "These “Christians” have strayed very far from Jesus Christ. Instead of showing love and compassion to all different types of people, healing the sick and serving the poor and needy, these “Christians” consider themselves better than everyone else." Talk about judgemental! How would he know what "These Christians" do? Does he know them? I do know many of them, and his conclusion of what we do is completely wrong.

Your author is preaching a doctrine of salvation by good works. That is plainly denied by many passages in the New Testament. For instance, the imagery Jesus used in the John 3 passage was of the bronze serpent in the days of Moses, and how anyone bitten by a serpent could be saved by the simple and faith-filled act of looking to the serpent. "14Just as Moses lifted the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life." He does not say that everyone who goes out and lives a "good life" will have eternal life, but rather those who look with faith (believes in) to Him. Your article arrived at completely the wrong conclusion.

Isaiah makes the same case when he states, "Look unto me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other."

Romans 3 is very clear on the topic. "For by works of the law no human being^c will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

So now it seems to me that you must believe your author or believe the Apostle Paul.

The Bible as our source of truth opposed to cultural beliefs".


That's just it, you're to judge for yourself. I'm not sure what truth a person would find in ancient "cultural beliefs", much less understanding them.

Even if we understood their way of thinking, we are so inundated with western thought that it takes a major paradigm shift to adjust our way of thinking to theirs.

That's why everything is going to pass away...all is going to die.
In so dying we (those in Christ Jesus, Lord and Savior) are separated from this world.
Those who love the world more than life will simply pass away...away from Gods presence. Being separated from God might be hell!

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind

1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world.

Luke 12:23

For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

The Hebrews were called out separated from all other nations, Special to God and so totally tied to the evolution of life and religious culture.
Cultural beliefs begin with God and ends 'in' Jesus.

Welcome aboard, Waltero. Always good to have another person to engage in our spirited discussions.

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That's just it, you're to judge for yourself. I'm not sure what truth a person would find in ancient "cultural beliefs", much less understanding them.Even if we understood their way of thinking, we are so inundated with western thought that it takes a major paradigm shift to adjust our way of thinking to theirs.

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I'm not following your logic. You say that we cannot find truth in such an ancient document as the Bible, but then you quote the Bible to support your belief. You can't have it both ways. If the Bible cannot be understood, then why wouldn't we simply throw it away?

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Those who love the world more than life will simply pass away...away from Gods presence.

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Where would we find a place where God is not present? In Psalm 139 we read, "7Where can I go to escape Your Spirit?Where can I flee from Your presence?8If I ascend to the heavens, You are there;if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.9If I rise on the wings of the dawn,if I settle by the farthest sea,10even there Your hand will guide me;Your right hand will hold me fast.11If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me,and the light become night around me”—12even the darkness is not dark to You,but the night shines like the day,for darkness is as light to You."

Hello jlisenbe, thanks for the warm welcome.

I am dyslexic combined with trying to read all the threads before I respond, I often get it wrong.


1) My mistake.
I was reading it as Bible vs Cultural Beliefs... which one should we choose as truth.


2) Who is it that loves "this world" more than life (aka. Jesus)... I was referring to unbelievers.

Right now there is a separation of God and man, we know what that feels like.
I don't think we are capable of understanding what it means to be without GOD...being outside the presence of GOD.

I understand it as just believing in Jesus, as the truth and the life. The way I understand it is I am not required to do anything, nothing, other than believe. The rest will follow...so I'm told.
Simply Believe in a man named JESUS, that is above all other names...what's so hard (other than it goes against human nature) about that?

Believe in Jesus and you shall be Saved from Death and will have eternal life...a person need do anything more than that. In fact it is said you can't do anything more than that! Just believe ;-)

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I understand it as just believing in Jesus, as the truth and the life. The way I understand it is I am not required to do anything, nothing, other than believe. The rest will follow...so I'm told.
Simply Believe in a man named JESUS, that is above all other names...what's so hard (other than it goes against human nature) about that?

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Well said. I would only add that it is a belief that matters and that will affect our behavior in the same way that a belief in gravity will keep us from jumping off a tall building.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I did read your link. Talk about a rambling discourse! He lost me very early on with this statement: "These “Christians” have strayed very far from Jesus Christ. Instead of showing love and compassion to all different types of people, healing the sick and serving the poor and needy, these “Christians” consider themselves better than everyone else." Talk about judgemental! How would he know what "These Christians" do? Does he know them? I do know many of them, and his conclusion of what we do is completely wrong.

Your author is preaching a doctrine of salvation by good works. That is plainly denied by many passages in the New Testament. For instance, the imagery Jesus used in the John 3 passage was of the bronze serpent in the days of Moses, and how anyone bitten by a serpent could be saved by the simple and faith-filled act of looking to the serpent. "14Just as Moses lifted the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life." He does not say that everyone who goes out and lives a "good life" will have eternal life, but rather those who look with faith (believes in) to Him. Your article arrived at completely the wrong conclusion.

Isaiah makes the same case when he states, "Look unto me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other."

Romans 3 is very clear on the topic. "For by works of the law no human being^c will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

So now it seems to me that you must believe your author or believe the Apostle Paul.

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The discourse is rambling only to those who refuse to believe it.

The rest of your reply has nothing to do with the topic under discussion which is your false statement that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment.

It is NOT about salvation. It is NOT about good works. It is NOT about Moses and bronze serpents. All of these are straw-man arguments. How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in?

Romans, Isaiah, the Prophets - not a single reference of yours deals with the subject.

There's a limit to my patience. If you can't use words according to their accepted meaning, further discussion seems pointless.

Jesus Christ is NOT a monster.

Jesus saves... And all I know is that I don't want to be standing in the white throne of judgment... eternal damnation or not.

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It is NOT about salvation. It is NOT about good works. It is NOT about Moses and bronze serpents. All of these are straw-man arguments. How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in?

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Those were in response to the article you linked to. If you did not want to discuss the article, why did you link to it?

You don't want to accept the clear testimony of Revelation 20, so I don't know what else to tell you. As Waltero stated, I don't want to be standing before the throne on that day without a saving knowledge of Jesus. Athos, do you have that saving knowledge? Is you faith in Christ?

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Originally Posted by waltero

Jesus saves... And all I know is that I don't want to be standing in the white throne of judgment... eternal damnation or not.

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Walter - please see the first post for what this thread is about. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Those were in response to the article you linked to. If you did not want to discuss the article, why did you link to it?

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The title of the article in the link is "Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell?" It directly addresses the question.

You say that you "don't want to be standing before the throne on that day without a saving knowledge of Jesus". That's all well and good, but IT IS NOT THE TOPIC UNDER DISCUSSION!!!!!

I really shouldn't waste any more time with you.

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The title of the article in the link is "Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell?" It directly addresses the question.

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If you read the article, and I assume you did, you know it was about a great deal more than its title would have indicated. But again, if you will trouble yourself to read Rev. 20, which I suppose you have not done, you will have the answer to your question.

And I would ask you again. Is your faith in Christ, or is your faith in your goodness and good works?

@Athose.

QUOTE:

Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?

AND:
"If you believe this saying without providing proof, please explain why you believe it. Thank you".

You set up yourself some Guidelines that must be included in said quote?

Remember, no one will go to Hell because of their sins. We're all sinners. The only people who will be cast into hell will be those who refuse to accept the only remedy God provided for their sins, the shed blood of his son, Jesus.

Luke 16:23
"in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgement;

2 Thessolonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the Glory of his power,

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

Mark 9:47-48
"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED


Matthew 18:8
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Revelations 20:13-5
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Revelations 21-8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelations 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm not sure if these follow the guidelines you have set.
One thing is sure, the Bible tells all. It is the living word...and the word became Flesh.
You asked why I might believe.
All is death, we are all doomed to perish. Christ Jesus is all that lives. If a soul is found outside the body of Jesus, it is in utter darkness, cast away from the living God. You might think of it as being permanently separated from "the living" God...our souls are so far-separated from God, cast into utter Darkness. You really Don't need to go any further than being separated from God, that would be hellish enough for me...never mind the fire and Brimstone aka hell.

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Originally Posted by waltero

I'm not sure if these follow the guidelines you have set.

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No they don't, but thank you for trying. Each misses at least one of the requirements to satisfy the proposition "Unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment".

Since you came late to the discussion, I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell. That would include millions and millions of God's creatures who lived and died without ever hearing about the Biblical God.

Jlisen took the opposite position and based it on verses from the Bible. I examined each one and found none of them supporting his position without adding terms not originally found in the quoted verses.

And unbelievers in which version of God? The God of the Jews? The God of the Lutherans? The God of the Catholics? The God of the Baptists? The God of the Muslims? And each of those religions/denominations has sub-groups that differ about how they understand God and what He has told them.

Waltero, you listed more than a dozen scriptures for which I commend you, but that is not enough for those who simply refuse to believe or who claim not to know which God the Bible is talking about. Revelation 20 is enough by itself, but not for those who do not want to believe.

The New Testament is really very clear on the subject of faith in Christ. 1 John 5:11, for instance, states, "God has given us eternal life, this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life." And how, you ask, do we receive the Son? John 1:11ff reads, "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Very clear.

And heaven's population will be very small....

@Wondergirl:

"And unbelievers in which version of God?"
Is this a trick question? I'd say all the above, to include the one and only living God.

Remember we only get anything from God by being immersed [baptized] in the Lord Jesus Christ, like Jacob we put on Esau’s [Jesus] skin and get His inheritance, for only one person will be saved from the earth... (Col 3:1-4).
@Athos:

"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him..."
Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

All have seen, all have heard of him...I have another reference that tells how Creation Speaks to all...If you think said idea is still valid???
It is a Hard thing to think about; A loving God that would condemn his creatures/creation.
Unfortunatly for some, we have a Just GOD.
God's justice. Deut 32:4. Just and right is he.' Job 37:23. Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in plenty of justice.' God is said to dwell in justice. Psa 89:14. Justice and judgement are the habitation of thy throne.' In God, power and justice meet. Power holds the sceptre, and justice holds the balance.
God's justice is such that it is not fit for any man or angel to expostulate with him, or demand a reason of his actions. God has not only authority on his side, but equity. He lays judgement to the line, and righteousness to the plummet.' Isa 28:17. It is below him to give an account to us of his proceedings. Which of these two is more fit to take place, God's justice or man's reason? Rom 9:20. Who art thou, O man, that replies against God?' The plumb line of our reason is too short to fathom the depth of God's justice. Rom 11:33. How unsearchable are his judgements!' We are to adore God's justice, where we cannot see a reason of it. God's justice runs in two channels. It is seen in two things, the distribution of rewards and punishments.God is not bound to give an account of his actions to his creatures. If none may say to a king, What doest thou?' Eccles 8:4, much less to God. It is sufficient, God is Lord paramount; he has a sovereign power over his creatures, therefore can do no injustice. Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonor?' Rom 9:21I. God has liberty in his own breast, to save one, and not another; and his justice is not at all impeached or blemished. If two men owe you money, you may, without any injustice, remit the debt to one, and exact it of the other. If two malefactors be condemned to die, the king may pardon the one and not the other: he is not unjust if he lets one suffer, because he offended the law; nor if he save the other, because he will make use of his prerogative as he is king.

If God lets men prosper a while in their sin, his vial of wrath is all this while filling; his sword is all this time whetting: and though God may forbear men a while, yet long forbearance is no forgiveness. The longer God is in taking his blow, the heavier it will be at last. As long as there is eternity, God has time enough to reckon with his enemies.

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Originally Posted by waltero

@Wondergirl:

"And unbelievers in which version of God?"
Is this a trick question? I'd say all the above, to include the one and only living God.

Remember we only get anything from God by being immersed [baptized] in the Lord Jesus Christ, like Jacob we put on Esau’s [Jesus] skin and get His inheritance, for only one person will be saved from the earth... (Col 3:1-4).
@Athos:

"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him..."
Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

All have seen, all have heard of him...I have another reference that tells how Creation Speaks to all...If you think said idea is still valid???
It is a Hard thing to think about; A loving God that would condemn his creatures/creation.
Unfortunatly for some, we have a Just GOD.
God's justice. Deut 32:4. Just and right is he.' Job 37:23. Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in plenty of justice.' God is said to dwell in justice. Psa 89:14. Justice and judgement are the habitation of thy throne.' In God, power and justice meet. Power holds the sceptre, and justice holds the balance.
God's justice is such that it is not fit for any man or angel to expostulate with him, or demand a reason of his actions. God has not only authority on his side, but equity. He lays judgement to the line, and righteousness to the plummet.' Isa 28:17. It is below him to give an account to us of his proceedings. Which of these two is more fit to take place, God's justice or man's reason? Rom 9:20. Who art thou, O man, that replies against God?' The plumb line of our reason is too short to fathom the depth of God's justice. Rom 11:33. How unsearchable are his judgements!' We are to adore God's justice, where we cannot see a reason of it. God's justice runs in two channels. It is seen in two things, the distribution of rewards and punishments.God is not bound to give an account of his actions to his creatures. If none may say to a king, What doest thou?' Eccles 8:4, much less to God. It is sufficient, God is Lord paramount; he has a sovereign power over his creatures, therefore can do no injustice. Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonor?' Rom 9:21I. God has liberty in his own breast, to save one, and not another; and his justice is not at all impeached or blemished. If two men owe you money, you may, without any injustice, remit the debt to one, and exact it of the other. If two malefactors be condemned to die, the king may pardon the one and not the other: he is not unjust if he lets one suffer, because he offended the law; nor if he save the other, because he will make use of his prerogative as he is king.

If God lets men prosper a while in their sin, his vial of wrath is all this while filling; his sword is all this time whetting: and though God may forbear men a while, yet long forbearance is no forgiveness. The longer God is in taking his blow, the heavier it will be at last. As long as there is eternity, God has time enough to reckon with his enemies.

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Thanks Walter. The words you quoted from the Bible are fine and good. But Walter, please be honest, where in those fine words are unbelievers condemned to hell for eternal punishment? There is much about God's justice which has not been denied here but nothing about UNBELIEVERS BEING CONDEMNED TO HELL FOR ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.

If that is your position, please give the specific words in the Bible proving that. Not your interpretation or personal belief, but the actual specific words where God condemns unbelievers to hell and eternal punishment.

To help you, you need 4 characteristics for your proof:
1. unbelievers
2. condemnation
3. hell
4. eternal punishment
Your proof should contain all 4. Thank you.

Waltero, the answer has already been provided. It is simply a matter of some people being completely unwilling to believe. In John 3, for instance, a person can read this: "16 For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

The reply will be to nitpick the meaning of "condemned". Having established a artificial list of narrowly defined conditions, and insisting that all of the conditions must be met by one text, it will then also be argued that "perish" is not a sufficiently strong word. And on and on it will go. I think you stated it pretty well earlier. I do not want to stand at the throne of judgement on that terrible day with my confidence having been placed in my good works. I will stand on that day with my faith in Jesus and no confidence whatsoever in any goodness I might think I have. We can argue about what lies beyond that day for unbelievers, but whatever a person might want to believe it is, I do not want to become part of it and am motivated to tell others that they also should avoid it at all costs.

I'm not sure where Athos stands with his faith. I have asked him but received no reply. I have asked him what he believes will happen to unbelievers but received no reply to that either.

@Athos


QUOTE:
"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell. That would include millions and millions of God's creatures who lived and died without ever hearing about the Biblical God."
END QUOTE.

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Simply following your own conclusions, based on the belief that there are people whom are innocent..."that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell."

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Even if all your premises were true (which is itself a false premise, since your premises are *not* all true), these premises still wouldn't justify your conclusion.

The fact of the matter is that nobody is innocent, all of creation, all that has been created knows that of Jesus the Christ. All of Creation speaks out. Anything that has been Created has a creator.
Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

"Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?"

What has Jesus saved us from? Why would anybody want to travel to different parts of the world to Preach the name of Jesus, to those who have never gave thought of God or Salvation..."those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him."

Would it not have been better to just let them be, rather than Subject them tto everlasting hellfire???

Those who Reject Gods love...They will be punished with everlasting destruction.

Waltero didn't provide any kind of reference for the "eternal punishment" part, even though he did for all the others. I find that rather telling.

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Those who Reject Gods love...They will be punished with everlasting destruction.

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Walter, if you had been born into a Muslim family/society and were a devout Muslim, believing you have God's love, would you switch to being a Christian?

Here is the eternal punishment reference. As you well know, there are others.

Matthew 25. 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

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Walter, if you had been born into a Muslim family/society and were a devout Muslim, believing you have God's love, would you switch to being a Christian?

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What is your point?

Can I assume your (opposed to the Bibles) understanding of "unbelievers" to mean;

someone who has no religious beliefs, or who does not follow a particular religion?

Religious belief is distinct from religious practice and from religious behaviors- with some believers not practicing religion and some practitioners not believing religion.

Does the Bibles definition of 'unbelievers" differ from yours? What is your definition of religion?? Is a person considered an "unbeliever" if they believe in God but not in religion? Can a person believe in God and not religion???

We are never only one thing, even when that thing is religion. Religion is not just a beliefs about Salvation, it is also the everyday habits of discipline and humility those beliefs encouraged.

Finding religion in everyday life means looking wherever and however we find people invoking a sacred presence.

Quote: Jesus

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!…

@Wondergirl:
Quote:

Walter, if you had been born into a Muslim family/society and were a devout Muslim, believing you have God's love, would you switch to being a Christian? END QUOTE.

Probably not.

If I was involved in organized crime, If I was a murderer, if I was a simple Honest good man, if I was a Irish midget monk etc....probably not switch to being a Christian.
Nothing about me ever wanted to have anything to do with God! "Christ-in me" is what Changes me...Never had anything to do with me.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Is it too hard to fathom that every living creature on the face of the earth (past and present) have seen, known the living GOD. Man was created with God in our DNA. Why bother yourselves...who will suffer eternal damnation! I'm not sure what Athos is getting at. 1) Is he trying to say that only those who have knowledge of God, and by rejecting him will be thrown into the lake of fire. 2) is he trying to say that those whom have never known or haven't even had the chance to know God, (aren't classified as unbelievers, being that they had never had a God to believe in in the first place) therefore are exempt from being tossed into Hell. 3) Hell only last till the end of time, nothing eternal about it.

Anybody that has ever lived has the knowledge of Gods existence. Nobody is blameless...nobody escapes Judgment. Your either on the right (life) or the left (Hell) Either eternal Life (in Christ) or eternal Punishment (in sin)

Either way we all enter eternity to be judged, those on his right (those that are in the body of the Christ) will enter into eternal life, those on his left will be cast into eternal (we can say eternal because time has past...been done away with) Hell.

To focus on Hell is to focus on ones flesh...Hell is Gods purpose, not mine.

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ReplyForward

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Originally Posted by waltero

@Athos


QUOTE:
"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell. That would include millions and millions of God's creatures who lived and died without ever hearing about the Biblical God."
END QUOTE.

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Simply following your own conclusions, based on the belief that there are people whom are innocent..."that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell."

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Even if all your premises were true (which is itself a false premise, since your premises are *not* all true), these premises still wouldn't justify your conclusion.

The fact of the matter is that nobody is innocent, all of creation, all that has been created knows that of Jesus the Christ. All of Creation speaks out. Anything that has been Created has a creator.
Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

"Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?"

What has Jesus saved us from? Why would anybody want to travel to different parts of the world to Preach the name of Jesus, to those who have never gave thought of God or Salvation..."those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him."

Would it not have been better to just let them be, rather than Subject them tto everlasting hellfire???

Those who Reject Gods love...They will be punished with everlasting destruction.

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Hi Waltero, Please read my original post carefully. You have not responded to the topic being discussed. I am looking for the 4 characteristics delineated in that original post which are found in a Bible quote.

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Originally Posted by waltero

What is your definition of unbeliever?

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An unbeliever is defined as one who doesn't believe in Jesus. That is what I understood jls to mean when he originally made the statement we are discussing.

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We are never only one thing, even when that thing is religion. Religion is not just a beliefs about Salvation, it is also the everyday habits of discipline and humility those beliefs encouraged.

Finding religion in everyday life means looking wherever and however we find people invoking a sacred presence.

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All that may be true but it doesn't address the question.

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Jesus. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!…

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Non-responsive to the topic.

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I'm not sure what Athos is getting at.

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It couldn't be simpler what I'm getting at. I have laid it out as directly and as simply as possible. Please don't read into my post something that isn't there.

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Anybody that has ever lived has the knowledge of Gods existence. Nobody is blameless...nobody escapes Judgment. Your either on the right (life) or the left (Hell) Either eternal Life (in Christ) or eternal Punishment (in sin)

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This isn't bad, Waltero. Now, if you can just tweek that statement to have unbelievers being condemned to hell for eternal punishment, you can give us the location in the Bible where it is found.

Your question has been acceptably answered. You just don't accept the answer which is certainly your prerogative. I'm still interested to find out what you believe happens to those who have not accepted Christ as Savior.

Um, Athos is the one who decides if the question has been answered adequately, not any of us responders.

Uhm... actually, we all get to make that decision ourselves as to whether the question has been answered. He is certainly most welcome to his own opinion as are you.

Athos' question has yet to be answered.

Give Athos some credit. It is a cleverly worded question, and I think intentionally so, but at the bottom of the question is a much simpler one: What happens to those who do not have faith in Christ? It is hard to imagine how much clearer the answer could be than the text found in John 3:14ff. Those who do not believe in Jesus, He says, are "condemned already". Now we can argue as to what that condemnation amounts to. Is it eternity in a lake of fire? Rev. 20 certainly seems to say so, but argue against that if you want to. (I'd still like to know what Athos and WG believe on that issue.) It still comes back to the question of how to avoid being under the righteous judgement of God. Cleverly worded questions aside, it is a clearly answered question in the New Testament, and it is hard for me to imagine why we would want to "muddy the waters" by the endless parsing of words. Such evasions will not profit those who stand before His throne on that terrible day.

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An unbeliever is defined as one who doesn't believe in Jesus. That is what I understood jls to mean when he originally made the statement we are discussing.

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I have to think that your made up list is a distorted projection or perspective...attempting to gain

a specific vantage point in your challenge to the facts.

The Holy Bible offers ample attestation of the association between unbelievers and eternal punishment.

The gospel came not in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the

lake

of

fire

and

brimstone

where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

if you will trouble yourself to read Rev. 20, which I suppose you have not done, you will have the answer to your question.

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Have read the entire book several times. I agree with many traditional sources that place the book during the reign of Domitian. As my favorite pastor always said, "Revelation was written in a code that has never been broken" and has to do with events in the first century A.D. Revelation was the last book accepted into the biblical canon and almost didn't make it. In 1522 Martin Luther called it "neither apostolic nor prophetic."

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And I would ask you again. Is your faith in Christ, or is your faith in your goodness and good works?

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Mine is in my Savior, Jesus Christ.

I think your view of Revelation is very much a minority view. This, in particular, is an extremely questionable statement: "Revelation was the last book accepted into the biblical canon and almost didn't make it." Still, fair enough, and your Martin Luther reference was entirely correct. However, would you believe what Jesus said?

Matt. 10:28. " fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matt. 25:46. “And they shall go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into everlasting life.”

Matt. 8:12. "And many an Israelite—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment.”

Luke 16:22. "Finally the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham in the place of the righteous dead.[c] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and his soul went into hell.[d] There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham."

Matt. 5:29. "And if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members be destroyed than your whole body be thrown into hell."

Luke 10:15. " And you people of Capernaum, what shall I say about you? Will you be exalted to heaven? No, you shall be brought down to hell.”

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I think your view of Revelation is very much a minority view. This, in particular, is an extremely questionable statement: "Revelation was the last book accepted into the biblical canon and almost didn't make it." Still, fair enough, and your Martin Luther reference was entirely correct.

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"Revelation had the longest and hardest fight of any book to be recognized as inspired. Though numerous early authors quoted and approved of it, others argued against Revelation."
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...-most-christia

Please do some research. Revelation had a tough time being accepted into the canon mostly because is the only explicitly eschatological work in the New Testament, its date of composition is generally taken to be far later than the other books, its content is dramatic, and its author is not certain. Though a few books have apocalyptic sections, no other New Testament work is apocalyptic from the first to last verse. (same resource as linked above)

The recognition of the NT canon, as I'm sure you know, is not a clearly understood historical occurrence. It's not as though a committee met very early in the process and pondered the book of Revelation as to its inclusion and then, on some date, all agreed it was in. It was a development more than an occurrence and the early historical records are somewhat sketchy.

Your link included the following: "Even though the East had trouble with the book, the West recognized Revelation as inspired fairly early. Jerome, Ambrose, Rufinus, Augustine, and Innocent all accept it as canonical.²⁶ The Third Council of Carthage (397) listed as canonical, and at the Third Constantinople Council officially ratified Revelation in 680."

Still, reject it if you want to. It still leaves a problem for you which is the many statements of Jesus. At least I guess it's a problem. You seem to love to make observations and yet never reach a conclusion. I sometimes think your Christian beliefs clash with your liberal leanings which makes it uncomfortable for you. Could be wrong about that.

Yep, you're wrong about that. And you painted only part of the picture about how Revelation finally ended up as part of the canon. At least, you read my link. <big grin>

Jesus was speaking to uneducated people who were a product of their times and culture. I'm betting He wouldn't say those same words to us in 2019.

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Yep, you're wrong about that.

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If you think the history of the recognition of the NT canon is clear and well-documented, then you need to get out more.

Jesus wouldn't use the same words today? Well, He wouldn't speak in Aramaic. Other than that, what is your point? Do you think He would now say, "Sorry guys. I got it all wrong 2,000 years ago. There really is no hell, gay marriage is the way to go, and everyone should vote democrat."

You make me laugh sometimes. I frequently think you surely must be joking.