If heaven is a place without sin, who give the entrypass to devil.
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If heaven is a place without sin, who give the entrypass to devil.
Again I say read the book of Job.Quote:
Originally Posted by nasar
You made me think there nasar. Yes, in Job, the Old Testament times the devil had uninvited meetings most likely, in heaven. And any passage would have course have to be allowed by God himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by nasar
I clipped this from a Christian website. Keep in mind that according to Pastor John Hagee's cd-the mystery woman in Rev.12 is Israel. So even Rev. is coming together for me to understand. But here is an explanation for your question.
Quote:
Back to the Devil. What power does He and His massed armies of demons really have on this planet?
When our glorious Lord returned to Heaven after conquering Satan by taking upon Himself (by dying the most horrible death on the cross) the sins of His creations, He threw Satan out of heaven.
Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in Heaven: Michael (One of our Lord's chief Archangels and army commander) and His angels fought against the dragon (the Devil); and the Dragon fought and His angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven.
9 And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and His angels were cast out with Him."
Earthly imagination cannot even begin to conceive of the magnitude and dreadfulness of this Heavenly war (for it was a war in the spiritual sphere) in which the third of the angels in Heaven who had followed Satan in His rebellion against God's authority were thrown out of Heaven.
Revelation 12:4 "And there appeared another wonder in Heaven; behold a great red dragon…, his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and didst cast them to the earth."
9 And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and His angels were cast out with Him."
So! Right here right now are zillions upon zillions of evil spirits doing Satan's bidding of inhabiting/ affecting/infecting people's bodies and minds and causing every type of strife and chaos imaginable.
Luke 8:30 "Jesus then asked him, what is your name? And he answered Legion (a multitude, thousands upon thousands); for many demons had entered him.
31 And they (the demons) begged (Jesus) that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.
32 Now a herd of many swine (pigs which were absolute anathema to the Jews) was feeding there on the mountain. And they (the demons) begged Him (Jesus) that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them.
33 Then the demons went out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake and were drowned. (New King James).
So although demons prefer to inhabit and control humans, they can inhabit animals and other creatures.
Ephesians 6:12 "For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood — contending only with physical opponents — but against despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere." (Amplified).
Satan can control the weather as well as people and events, and armies and sickness and disease. If you read the first two chapters of JOB in your favorite translation you will see this truth. BUT! Our Lord and Saviour JESUS CHRIST can and will give us complete protection from the Devil and His hordes of demons if we ask Him through the Holy Spirit in His name.
Luke 4:10 "For it is written, He shall give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee."
Psalm 91:11 "For He will order His angels to guard you wherever you go." (Kethuvim).
Hebrew 1:14 "Are they not (our guardian angels) all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation." end quote.
I would have to say the sin is evil not the person. " Hate the sin but love the sinner."
There is not a soul walking on this earth that can truthfully state that he or she is not a sinner... That is something I do know for a fact. As far as them being evil I am torn. I think we all have a little evil in us. Sometimes it is simple things we do or don't do. What separates it being a complete bad act or though is if we have remorse for what we do, say, or feel. If I hurt someone with words and have no remorse I believe that makes it an evil act. Where as if I feel sorry for it and actually repend and try to redeem myself it makes the scenario a lot different. Hopefully what I have said makes sense to at least one of you'll... lol
Man was made in the image of God but the image became distorted when he sinned. The punishment God established for sin is death. We inherited that distorted image, and sinfulness from Adam along with the death penalty.
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
However, God ignores that sinfulness and looks at us as if we are reflecting his perfect sinless image because Jesus' Ransom Sacrifice paid the price for our sins--death. So the answer to the question is, yes, we all sin. But if we accept Jesus' Ransom Sacrifice, then God will view us as if we are not sinners and grant us eternal life.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If you do a little word study, you will discover that the root for the word "sin" is actually an archery term meaning "to miss the mark".
According to the Bible God created all of us for a purpose. Sinning is "missing the mark" of what that purpose is.
The Bible tells us Jesus knew no sin. In other words, he never missed the mark of what his purpose was. In other words Jesus in the only one in history who a had a perfect life without any mistakes even though he was tempted.
Evil on the other hand is deliberately harming others so that you yourself will benefit, whether it be through fear or pride, or both.
So in answer to your question:
Is everyone evil, or does everyone make it their life goal to harm others so they can gain from it? No
Does everyone make mistakes? Of course
How far does sin extend? How responsible is the soldier who follows the orders of his superiors to massacre an entire village? How responsible is the worker who helps make the Zyklon B gas in a factory, whether knowing or not what purpose it will be put to? How responsible is the man who shuttles the victims to their final destination? How does this affect the people who denied entry to the refugees, or sent them back to their doom? Or that one or few times in your life that you thought, "I hate -----", for whatever reason?
Fred:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Your question looks deceivingly simple on the surface, however as it turns out, it required a pensive response. I contend that while no man is sinless, with the exception of Christ of course, we have hope in obtaining holiness in obdiance to the Divine Will.
Baptism wipes from the soul original sin which becomes justified by the infusion of a sanctifying grace of faith. Concupiscence is likened to the temporal result of sin. Concupiscence is best defined as desire of the lower appetite which is contrary to reason, a self-gratification of the human nature which subordinates reason. Desires contrary to good and right reason dispose one to solicit the consent of the will. Hence "The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh."
Still hope abounds,” That being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear: In holiness and justice before him, all our days.” (Luke 1:74-75) For Holiness is the outcome of sanctification, God freely justifies us. Holiness, hagiosyne in 1 thess. 3:13 and hosiotes in Luke 1:75 provides a firmness to constrain concupiscence to serve the Divine, contemplation of Supreme Truth, and for the Love of God. From which God charitably extends His assurance , “that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom. 8:38-39)
Finally we come to the question, is any man sinless? No. However, we can say with confidence that, even though born stained of original sin, our faith in the baptismal promise of hope we receive God's Charity in the disciplines of holiness. It is this way we persevere, “with fear and trembling work out your salvation.” (Phil 2:12) Faith, hope and charity (Cf. 1 Cor 13:13) to be followed in “peace with all men and holiness: without which no man shall see God” (Heb 12:14)
JoeT
I can't agree with you Lacey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacey5765
Sin is immorality that rests in our will to formally or materially cooperate with evil. Evil being a perversion of form or order or measure found in the natrual order. That is to say that sin is from us in disobedience to Divine Will. In this sense it is of the person.
You have within you the will to be either sinful and condemned or holy and redeemed; it's in this we find Divine Justice.
JoeT
Joe,
'I do believe you are right.
Fred
While this is true, we must remember that we operate within a body because we know that one man does not make an army; nor does one house constitute a kingdom. When divided a kingdom fails, a divided household fails, and divided a man becomes schizophrenic. Luke chapter 11 teaches that a disordered or sinful body is a divided body which cannot stand against satan and his evil minions. Satan can control only those who wish to be controlled, those separated from the Body of Christ. Consequently, we should see fears of possession as unfoundedQuote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
Christ teaches the Pharisees that demons cannot be cast out in the name of Beelzebub; which was the custom at the time. To do so would be catastrophic for the little devil, we all know that a house divided cannot stand. Likewise, portions of the militant Church cannot stand when divided. Accordingly, being of the Kingdom of God, we must cast out demons in the name of God (not Beelzebub), whereby we command the full body of his armies'; those militant, those persevering, as well as those triumphant. Our home is not swept clean (Cf. Luke 11:25-26), ready for a new tenant, rather we garrison the ramparts with faith that we are “converted from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a lot among the saints, by the faith that is in me.” (Acts 26:18)
Consequently we find ourselves awake, armed, and ready for spiritual battle with the power of God's “grace sufficient for power made perfect in our weakness" (Cf. 2 Cor 12:8) Even still, you'll find that being part of the Kingdom of God allows you to “take unto you the armor of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day and to stand in all things perfect (Cf.Eph 6:13). Be secure in the knowledge that, although a pawn, one can advance on the king of darkness when moved by the hand of God; for “the devils also are subject to us in thy name…Behold, I have given you power to tread upon serpents and scorpions and upon all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall hurt you.” (Luke 10:18, 19). “With fear and trembling” we dwell in the protected body of Christ in our perseverance; One body, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
JoeT
JoeT777,
Marvelous response.
Fred
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous, He who does what is sinful is of
the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeard was to desroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will
continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; He can not go on sinning, because
he has been born of God." 1 john 3:7-9
We who are born again have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus, and do not
continue in sin and we love our brother and sisters. We donot have evil in us.
Maggie 3
Really? Nobody who is born again ever sins after that? That's a pretty strong claim, if I've understood you correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
Maggie 3
We may not have evil in us BUT everyone sins.
Even the saints have admitted they sinned and needed to confess their sinfulness and ask for forgiveness as the bible directs.
Peace and kindness,'
Fred (arcura)
Lol! Good to see you again. And its good to see the atheist corp slowly straggling back with a new more respectful attitude. I hope it remains that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyPitbull
What happened, did you guys get sick of Credendo?
Two questions:Quote:
and I have read through everyone's responses. If you don't mind arcura, I would like to piggyback some queries to extend the discussion. These thoughts have always bothered me regarding men and sin.
I think everyone is in agreement that all men (women) sin. The degrees to which we sin are not really the issue for me. I am wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this:
If we all sin, and we are all made in God's image, then it would stand to reason that he sins (or sinned) too. How do we reconcile that? Is that possibly how our souls are able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven because no one is without sin?
How do we reconcile that?
I'm sure you're familiar with the story of Adam and Eve, right? We believe God made Adam and Eve without sin and with a free will.
Let me back up. "Sin" means to disobey God. But at its core it means "separation from God." Adam and Eve were given free will so that they could freely choose to love God or to leave God. They chose to leave God and expressed this sentiment by disobeying His Word. Therefore they chose to obey the creature, the Serpent and to disobey God.
In so doing they committed the first sin. Which is known as the Original Sin.
As you probably know, the Church teaches we are all born with Original Sin. So how could we be born with a sin we didn't commit?
Well, Original Sin is not an actual sin in us. It is the absence of Original Justice and Holiness. To understand that concept, lets say you have $1 million dollars. And you take them to a casino, put them all on red#4 and lose.
Now you're penniless and derelict and your children will not inherit that $million because you no longer have them to pass on.
Same thing here. Adam and Eve threw away their holiness and could no longer pass that on to their children.
Next question:
Is that possibly how our souls are able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven because no one is without sin?
The simple answer is "no".
Scripture is clear that nothing "impure" will enter heaven.
So, in order to enter heaven, one must be pure. The Church teaches that in order to do that we must undo what Adam and Eve did.
What did Adam and Eve do? They disobeyed God.
How do we undo that? By obeying God.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
I hope that helps.
Don't be a stranger. I've always enjoyed our convesations.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I said we have no evil in us, we sin but are forgiven.
Read1 John 3:4-9
Maggie 3
Then what do we do with the man who had the unclean spirit driven out; was he not saved when the demon was driven out? Now with a soul swept and garnished, failing to armor himself with his faith, finds his soul newly possessed, not with just one demon, but seven new evil spirits. (Cf. Luke 11: 24-9)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
If we are always saved then why would the Lord separate the impatient, but long waiting, servant? Isn't a servant of the lord saved? “But if that servant shall say in his heart: My Lord is long a coming; and shall begin to strike the men-servants and maid-servants, and to eat and to drink and be drunk: The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not: and shall separate him and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers.” (Luke 12:45,46)
If believers, once saved, are “salt of the earth” then why must the salt be tested for taste? After all in Col 4:6 asks that our speech always be seasoned with grace. What good is salt that's lost its flavor? (Cf. Luke 14:34,35)
And how is it a few signs of wonder will deceive the elect if once saved always saved? For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Behold I have told it to you, beforehand. (Matthew 24:24,25)
If once saved always saved, then why do we always obey, not only in His presence but also in His absence with fear and trembling. (Cf. Phil 2:12) If we are always saved then what's to fear?
Why discipline the body, as if readying for spiritual war if there is no possibility of losing salvation? (Cf. 1 Cor 9:27).
But, more important why does Christ tell us that the only way to redemption is to “eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day (John 6: 55). This is the only way to everlasting life.
JoeT
Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Baptism forgives actual sin and the original sin we are born with. We only receive baptism once in our life. Now I suppose that we could be baptized just before exhausting our last breath - only this way are we once saved always saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
JoeT
Joe,
Right you are again.
Once saved always saved is a misinterpertation of Scripture, a heresy.
In many ways the bible proves that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
Fred:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Somewhere on these pages tell us how you're trip went!
Your support is always appreciated
JoeT
Joe,
I mentioned it to De Maria on another thread.
I had a marvelous Christmas up by the Canadian border and feasted Jesus Birthday in three different homes with USA and Canadian relatives and friends.
The trip up there was fine but coming home it snowed for several hundred miles so that was a bit worry some.
Happy, prosperous New Year,
Fred
I don't believe God looks at us as evil per say but rather he sees us as children who either reject him or fall short of his expectations. Neither does he judge our sins in degrees but rather if we repented from them or not. Jesus is our mediator and or savior so all we can do is give it over to him.
Like the one Christian bumper stickers say
Christians aren't perfect just forgiven
Christian under construction
That's wonderful. Its good to have you back. Although I really haven't participated much since you left either.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
N0help4u
Thanks for your thots on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
N0help4u:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I can’t find myself agreeing with you. Primarily because man can be evil in and of himself, and to suggest that God tolerates sin would be an error. While all do fall short in sin the effect is the degree to which sin impedes our love of God. Who judges or mediates is not part of this discussion. But, the Church does provide a means of redemption though the sacrament of confession; real redemption – removing sin, not simply justification – a covering of sin. Furthermore, sin can have more or less harmful effects in how it separates us from our love of God.
Sin is any willful inordinate action having an evil effect. Evil is perverting the form or the order or due measure of the natural order; the natural order is good being that it was created by God. Conversely, evil cannot be the originated by God, thus only man is capable of the first cause of sin. Original sin is a voluntary act (ex parte actus) to be distinguished from actual sin not by the deliberation of the act, but by the affect of disorder in our relationship with God (ex parte deordinationis). Both Original sin and actual sin can be further divided into two forms (Also see my previous post to Lacey5765, post 50)
Acts of sin can be divided into venial or mortal sin. St. Augustine highlights the primary distinction of characteristics wherein mortal sin “merits damnation” as opposed to venial sin which does not. The primary danger of venial sin is that it predisposes one to mortal sin. St. Thomas explains, “It is written (Ecclus. 19:1): 'He that contemneth small things shall fall by little and little.' Now he that sins venially seems to contemn small things. Therefore by little and little he is disposed to fall away together into mortal sin.”
The seven common capital vices that lead to mortal sin are pride, avarice, gluttony, lust, sloth, envy, anger. The division of sin into mortal or venial forms cannot be subdivided into class. Rather, mortal sin cuts off the sinner, whereas venial sin mealy impedes the sinner.
Source: St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, I-II Q88
JoeT
I am not saying man is not evil. I am saying that he still loves us and we either accept him and ask forgiveness or we reject him.
We divide sin into groups but can you tell me that God says he forgives the glutton while he does not forgive someone that gossips? I believe it is about God knowing your heart more so than sin itself. He forgave David and Paul. Why because he looks at the heart and not necessarily the sin itself.
I believe that is where the Church goes wrong with trying to 'win people to Christ' They get caught up in deciding someone is too evil or hardhearted rather than what God can do to bring them to repentance.
That is what I mean, we tie God's hands with our limitations of categorizing everything.
Moses kept the passover. Why? To keep the death angle away. Jeaus is our pasover
And we have the'Lords Supper' or Communion for the same reason and Paul teachers
Us how we should do this. " The teaching I give you is the same teaching I received
from the Lord; On the night when the Lord Jesus was handed over to be killed, he
took the bread and gave thanks for it. Then he broke the bread and said "This is my
Body which is for you. Do this as a memorial to me." In the same way after they ate, Jesus took the cup. He said, This cup is the new covenant effeted by my blood, do
this whenever you drink it as a memorial to me." When you eat the bread and drink the
Cup what you are doing is proclaiming the death of the Lord until he returns.
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner
Will be quilty of sinning against the body and the blood of the Lord'. (1cor 11: 23-27 )
My husband and I take communion everyday for the same reason Moses kept on keeping Passover. To keep away the death angel who would creep into our families
Spiritually and into our hearts personally. We do this in our early morning prayer
Time as we put the day into God's hands for guidance and direction. Biblically the
Bible does not say when or how often we should take communion. When you take
Communion you do it in remembrance of Jesus dying on the cross for us and for remission of sin.
God knows our hearts !
Maggie 3
JoeT777 ,
Very good explanation , that.
Example...
Gossip can result from pride, envy. Anger, or all three.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Very good thought. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
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