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Originally Posted by chaplain john

You have to realize that Religion, whether it be Christianity, Hindi, Buddhism, Seik, or Baha'i, is a fact and must be taught as a fact.

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It's not a fact, it's a faith.

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Originally Posted by chaplain john

I am even beginning to believe that because of the way that many people espouse Atheism it should almost be treated as a religion. (Italics just my own opinion)

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Since atheism is defined as the absence of religion that would be quite ironic. There is indeed a rise in atheism/agnoticism but it isn't harming anyone.

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Originally Posted by chaplain john

One of the problems going on in this nation right now is the fact that educators (in general) seem to have really taken the "separation of church and state" to only apply to Christianity and "in the interest of diversity" started introducing Wicca and Islam etc. to the curriculum. This tends to send the message that there is something wrong with Christianity.

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Does adding the teaching of jazz music in addition to classical music send the message that there is something wrong with classical music? Of course not. Your argument is bourne of paranoia.

[Does adding the teaching of jazz music in addition to classical music send the message that there is something wrong with classical music? Of course not. Your argument is bourne of paranoia.[/quote]

If children are told that they can not bring classical music to the school and they can not talk about classical music at school as is being done in many places with Christianity it just might possibly tend to send that message.

Just to answer the other thing about school violence since they took out the Bible from schools and the long story of taking prayer and the pledge and such... Things are much worse. In the 50s the problems were chewing gum and talking during class now look though, it's 2000 and what are the problems we face today? 1 in 3 get raped, 40% children self inflict, teen pregnancy, school shootings, drug addiction... How's separation of church and state working? And why is we have problems in court with having a Bible? What about bringing a buddha you think anyone would have a problem with that? Many do it. Read mark and you'll see where the separation was predicted and how it plays into rapture. Should God/Bible time be a part of daily life? Yes if it's going to be a lifestyle to have God in all you do, church for an hour on Wed. isn't going to do it. I'm 18 and that's all my parents ever gave me and you know I wish I could go back and change it because I went through cutting and sex and drinking, could you say that would not have happened had my parents had a daily study of the Bible everyday no but I would say it would have made a big difference on my decisions in life. What my church has always believed is that the tithe (10%) applies to not only money but rather also your time and talent. What you worship is what you spend the most time thinking of and doing is it not? 10% of time is 2 and a half hours, yeah that's a lot and I wouldn't suggest spending that time with your first grader, think of it more as weight training work your way up. I don't have a devotional or anything I just open the Bible and read a few verses and make sure I know what they mean and how God is attempting to speak to me. I would suggest if not doing anything yet with your child to do that. These days when I read I read about 20 chapters a day and record the verses that speak to me but I worked my way up. It's very important to make time now while she's young and everyday because if you don't someday she won't even pray everyday much less read the Bible or go to church. God Bless I hope that wasn't too much and it helps. My heart is overflowing with things to say :)

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Originally Posted by Metallic

... 1 in 3 get raped, 40% children self inflict ...

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Hell... where did you get those stats from? :confused: :eek:

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Originally Posted by Metallic
... 1 in 3 get raped, 40% children self inflict...


Hell... where did you get those stats from?

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90% of stats on the internet are made up. :-)

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Originally Posted by iAMfromHuntersBar

Hell ... where did you get those stats from?! :confused: :eek:

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Don't question these things - you must have faith.

Here is MY problem with the Bible being taught in the schools... WHO is going to teach it? I don't want just anyone teaching my child the Word! The Bible says man in his natural state cannot perceive the things of God neither can he know them. I don't want an unbeliever teaching my child anything spiritual. Likewise, I feel certain a Muslim wouldn't want ME teaching their child Islam. I'd prefer to teach my own children. Anyone agree?

Yes, agreed - you should teach your own children, not have it taught in school.

I still think that if it were taught as an elective in high school - that it would not be a bad thing. It could be taught as a whole - a study of different religions. Or they could break it down and have different classes for different beliefs.
I do agree that I would question "who is going to teach this?"

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Originally Posted by iAMfromHuntersBar

Hell ... where did you get those stats from?! :confused: :eek:

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The rape figure may be slightly inflated but I seem to remember something in a recent article on rape that stated that one in four women in the US today have been or will be raped in their lifetime. (the statistic is as I recall from someone else's research, not my own)

The figure about self inflicting I don't quite understand but given the teen suicide rate, if the reference is to self mutilation as I suspect, the figure may not be all that inaccurate. (In this case I'm referring to information on teen suicide that I have seen in my annual training seminars as I recall it)

You know, I have to wonder if all of these awful things really come from the lack of religion in our schools. Does it all stem from this? I just don't know. Part of me thinks maybe.
I know that kids are growing up a lot faster than they did in the 50's. I also know that in the 50's - the Mom usually stayed home and didn't work outside of that home. Now, it is rare that you have one parent at home. So, could that contribute? Not having that parental support that we once had? The kids are left to fend for themselves? What effect does that have on our society - maybe the kids aren't taught the morals of life because the parents aren't home to teach them. We get so wrapped up in our own heads that we forget at the end of a long day that we are still parents and need to teach these kids something.

Absolutely not. Public school is not the place to have a bible course not even as an elective. It's the responsibility of christian parents to teach their children the bible at home not a government institution.

Therefore it should be illegal to teach the bible or any religious course for that matter in public schools. Public schools are government institutions. I believe in keeping religion & government as far away from each other as possible!

The purpose of sending your kids to public school is so they can get a good education that prepares them for the workforce. Furthermore how will a course on the bible prepare students for the workforce? Employers do not care about how religious or spiritual you are. That's a personal thing.

If you look at the public school system in america - it is not getting the kids ready for the workforce either. It gets them ready for standardized test that get the school more money.

And that's a whole other thread NW. :)

Hey you! I was wondering when you would chime in. :)

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Originally Posted by NowWhat

If you look at the public school system in america - it is not getting the kids ready for the workforce either. It gets them ready for standardized test that get the school more money.

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That still does not make it appropriate to teach the bible in a government institution even as an elective.

Captive audience prayer in school should be illegal too. Jesus said that prayer is a language of the heart. When you pray you are to do it silently and go to your closet.

I don't think we are talking about captive prayer in school. I think kids should be able to choose for themselves. If they are choosing it - they want to learn it - then why not?

And go to your closet? Huh?

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Originally Posted by NowWhat

I don't think we are talking about captive prayer in school. I think kids should be able to choose for themselves. If they are choosing it - they want to learn it - then why not?

And go to your closet? Huh?

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I have more to say on the subject of public prayer but I'll start a new thread for that.

I know a lot of people may find this odd but I think this is a really simple question.

Teaching about bible in school is fine; teaching from the bible is not. There it is plain and simple. Many of you know my religious beliefs and even with them, I won't deny that the bible is a historically significant book. So from that point it is perfectly acceptable to teach kids about the bible when it explains how certain events happened. (Like the crusades, not Adam and Eve) If you want to force prayer in the schools that is what private schools are for and I agree that if you send your kid to private school you should get a big break on your taxes for that. Public schools already allow religious clubs that operate on school ground and when I was in high school they regularly held open prayer at the flag pole in the morning.

I don't agree with forced anything. If someone forces another to pray - then who's to say what else will be forced. I have no problem with my daughter praying to God at anytime. But, if I force the kid next to her to pray then am I opening the door for someone to force my daughter to pray to, say, Budda?
I don't want that.

I believe that's what private Christian/Catholic schools are for. Personally, I'm against the bible in public school - but I'm also against public school (go figure :P). In this country where we have the freedom of religion and separation of religion & state, you have to be mindful of the fact that even though the majority may be christians, there are many who are not. Granted, there are some good stories in the bible, that I think teach good lessons/moral lessons, I do not feel it should be a text book where classes are centered around it. They have chruch for that. Or private religious schools.

I don't get why anyone would want their child to be taught the bible in school. As several have pointed out on this thread, what makes the person qualified? What if the person teaching has different interpretations than what you want to teach your kids? It makes more sense to me that if you want to have the bible taught to your kids you do it yourself, send them to bible school, or hold classes with people in your community on your own time.

For those who might argue that teaching the bible is a way to expose everyone to Christianity, that can be done with an "Origins of Religion" class, or something similar. A class which focuses on the major religions of the world, their origins, their influence in our current lives (political, cultural, etc), and the basic tenets. The bible doesn't have to be the textbook in order to expose people to Christianity, but by teaching ABOUT it, people can make their own decisions.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It should be an elective. Keep the separation of religion and state.

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It should be available!
As far as separation of church and state: there isn't any. Churches and religious organizations are tax exempt. But what if a fire breaks out? Or someone gets robbed on church property? The fire department shows up. The police show up.
But our currency speaks to God. Our Pledge of Allegiance refers to God and trust:
Here's a very good link... ever heard of Red Skelton?
Pledge Of Allegiance To The Flag Of The United States Of America
(copy and paste... if you got speakers and a like mind)
This nation was founded on the freedom of religion. None included... none excluded.
If we can't learn the differences and understand them in school, the lessons will be learned elsewhere.

EMS responds to private and public property because they are servicing the community. It has nothing to do with church and state.

Tax exempt status... well, I've never understood that one, personally. I suppose it's because it's offered to ALL religions, so there's no indication of endorsement.

"Under God" was added to the pledge in 1954 by President Eisenhower, and was ruled unconstitutional in 2002.

"In God we trust" was added to our coin currency in 1864 in response to increased religious sentiment. It was added to paper money in 1957, after having been declared our "National Motto" in 1956.

We are far from a nation which has an actual separation of church and state, but there's no reason to add more fuel to the fire and give more indication of the government endorsing religion. A "Bible Studies" class in public school would indicate to many Americans the state is endorsing Christianity.

I liked what someone said a couple of posts ago - teach about the Bible - not FROM the Bible. I think people go to school to get educated. Why, then, can they not get educated on religion? Not just the Bible, but any religion? It is a huge part of our society. Yet, we are willing to send our kids out ignorant about the subject. (Yes, I can teach my child at home.)
I am not sure who would be qualified. There are people that study different religions - not just pastors - that could be qualified.

[QUOTE=jillianleab]EMS responds to private and public property because they are servicing the community. It has nothing to do with church and state.
QUOTE]
In NE Florida, where I live, the ambulance/rescue is operated by the county, paid by my taxes, and a ladder or pumper responds as support. They respond to private and public including establishments of religion, regardless of denomination or affiliation.
I'm not complaining, just telling it like it is.
I hadn't heard the phrase, "In God We Trust," was found to be unconstitutional. Nor have I seen the phrase removed from printed money. I have no problem with the phrase.

I [I]did[I] hear that this country was founded, at least partially, on the freedom of religion. It seems now we're becoming a country that represses religion. To the point where we find our forefathers ideas, thoughts and opinions to be "unconstitutional?" I tend to think when they made some of these decisions against the fear of reprisal. That's how they started this whole thing. I'm not going to subvert them!

Tessy777 asked who will teach the classes: I don't know... who selects the teachers for other classes? They, the board or "powers that be," must have guidelines to determine a teachers qualifications.

I think that kids in public schools should get bible studie. Just because you are in public school doent mean you are not any closer to god than kids in bible school.

Redtruck,
I think you missed most of the thread. Public school is paid for by all taxpayers and the government. Not all taxpayers or students are christians therefore either teach about all religions or none.

Here in Northern Virginia EMS is also operated by the county, paid for by my taxes, and mostly run by volunteers (fire and rescue, that is). I don't get what you are saying. EMS, private or public, is there to service the community. How does that have anything to do with church and state? Are you saying EMS shouldn't respond to religious institutions?

"In God We Trust" was not found unconstitutional. "Under God" in the pledge was found unconstitutional. Read my post again, that's what it says. If you find my words just too confusing, perhaps this link can help you: Pledge of Allegiance and its "under God" phrase

I don't think this country represses religion at all. You are allowed to practice whatever religion you want, you just aren't allowed to inject your religion into our government in such a way that the government is endorsing it. And sorry, but finding "Under God" in the pledge unconstitutional isn't going against our forefather's ideas. Read my post again and you will see the phrase was added in the 1950's. Last I checked, Eisenhower was not a founding father.

Assume a Board did select the teacher to teach a bible class - who determines the lesson plan? What does the teacher say about the story of Adam and Eve? Some say Adam and Eve is a true story, that's how we all got here. Some say it's a story to illustrate the need to resist temptation. Which do you want your child taught? What if the school teaches the opposite of what you want taught?

Yes, they should be exposed to all religions. That's my point. If only one version is available, they won't have enough information to make intelligent choise. Most of us choose by default... our first influences are frequently our only. I'll be darned if I can tell the differences, considering the options! And it may take longer than we think to gain enough of an understanding to say, "This is IT." That concept may seem foreign to some.

jillianleab,
Our fire/EMS is paid full time, 24/7. Our police are paid and also operate 24/7.
My point on this is: there is only one 911. If someone passed out in church, our tax-paid EMS go there. If someone tries to mug the alterboy and steal the tray, the cops are called (not volenteer cops) THAT isn't separation of church and state, the way some understand it.
Now, I admit I misread your previous post (sorry)

But this digreeses from the lead question posted by NowWhat. You're splitting hairs and I don't wish argue. Either I didn't explain my point or you don't believe me.

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Originally Posted by NowWhat

I guess, for me, the Bible is a guide book. Our instruction book on how to live. Every question we have about life and how to live in answered in the Bible.

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BIBLE : an acronym for : BASIC INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LEAVING EARTH

CaptainRich, I don't want to argue either, but I don't see how EMS responding to citizens in the community who are in distress violates church/state. The citizens pay taxes, which is why they get services. If a church has all it's windows broken out, the police respond because it is a community building and breaking out windows is illegal. When firemen put out a burning church the government isn't endorsing any religion, it's protecting it's citizens and buildings from harm. The church has been given tax exempt status on a federal level, so EMS is still required to respond. Same with non-religious institutions which are non-profit and tax-exempt. You seem to have a very different view on church/state than most.

We have digressed; I vote if we want to continue our little topic we do it via PM. Your choice, I said what I wanted to say.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRich

This nation was founded on the freedom of religion. None included...none excluded.
If we can't learn the differences and understand them in school, the lessons will be learned elsewhere.

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Yes. But freedom of religion also means the freedom not to be a christian and not have the bible shoved down our throats if we choose we don't want any part of it. People who want to learn about the bible or christianity go to church or religious school or bible study groups. There is NO need for it to be a part of the public school system. What about the jewish kids? The musliam kids? The wiccian kids? The athetist kids? Just as everyone has the right to believe in what they feel is right for them, they should also have the right not to have things forced upon them. Learning about the differences about different peoples faiths and beliefs is one thing, and I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a class that teaches about ALL the different religions, and how they came about - a class that would teach tolerance and respect for others beliefs. But a class that teaches the bible? No. Sorry. I would yank my kids out of that school so fast the teachers head would be spinning! Leave the bible in church or in your homes, but don't force it on other peoples children just because it's YOUR truth and YOUR guide book through life.

When offered as an elective - no one would be forced to participate.
I remember when I was in H.S. - a biology class that I HAD to take in order to graduate had a section of study on evolution. Now, I don't believe the evolution theroy at all.
I did opt out of that section of study, because it was against my beliefs, but if they are going to study evolution - then why not other things. You (the school) are offering one thing - but denying the rest. Is that right? I think not.

But, again, the question at hand is - if this was offered as an elective, if your child choses to take this and learn more - would you have a problem. Remember, elective is not forced. I mean, we think our kids are responsible enough at 16 to drive a car. Some are still in school at 18, they are responsible enough to vote, go into the military, etc. Are they not responsible enough to choose a class of study that interests them?

Evolution is scientific fact, I have no problems with it being taught as such.
The Bible is a work of literature, I have no problems with it being taught as such.

I do not believe that evolution is a scientific fact. I think it is a theroy. It goes against EVERYTHING I believe. But, yet, it is taught in school.

And, if the Bible is just literature - then why not teach it in English class? Right along side "To kill a mockingbird"?

The neat thing about science is that you can get a bunch of you together and try to disprove the studies/theories by publishing your research findings and have others comment on it.

Yes it is a theory. Thank you for confirming me. A theory is something that is confirmed by all available evidence. Thus it is fact.

Like I said, I am happy for the Bible to be studied alongside Shakespeare and Orwell.

Well - I don't believe it - so, it is offensive to me to have it taught in school. Just like the Bible is offensive to others. So, what now?