:)

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Originally Posted by arcura

gromitt82,
I agree with you on that.
Notice the many old paintings which depict God in human form.
One of the most famous is very big on the celeing of the chaple in Rome.
Also I do believe that When God says the He is the beginning and the end I believe it to be of something like the universe or creation but not of Him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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In my opinion, that is the whole point. In very much the same way as Michael Angel felt he had to paint God as a powerful and strong middle age man mparting life to Adam, in his Creation of Adam, in the Sistine Chapel, for he could not in any way even attempt to depict God despite all his artistic talent ALL those who had tried to describe God in writing (whether Saints or else) have stumbled upon the impossibility to describe God'sobvious magnificence with words or in any other way.

The "Alpha / Omega" sentence has always been used -wrongly, I believe- to express an idea of something infinite. That is the idea St. John is transmiting in his Book of Revelation.

But, as you say quite rightly, it cannot really be applied to God. We should never - I think - forget that God is the Creator of everything. The Universe and whatever it may contain.

Now then, if the Universe we know - and we still ignore whether there are other Universes - is so immeasurable , with billions of galaxies, each one with billion of stars separated each other by bilions of light-years - and we believe it has been created by God, it necessarily follows that the Creator must be well over and above his Creation, to the extent that for God there is no time (past, present and future are THE SAME THING), nor space or distance. God is everywhere AT THE SAME TIME, has always been and will always be.

When we die, we shall all probably have a glimpse of God's Glory and those who deserve it will have the privilege of sharing a bit of that Glory -whatever it is like - forever. Whereas, those who must be punished, will not have that privilege forever, too.

This is what I believe could describe Heaven and Hell.

But using the concept of time in the Earthly meaning, in a few more years maximum, I shall know for sure as well as whether I deserve to be forever glorified or doomed. I'm hoping on God's mercy to go "marching in, with the saints"... :):)

gromitt82,
Yes, I wonder about how would an artist paint or draw a picture of a spirit creating something tangible.
I also thing that via the infinite and perfect grace and mercy of God you and I will get to see the Glory of God in heaven but perhaps after a stint in Purgatory.
Pax Um Biscum,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

gromitt82,
Yes, I wonder about how would an artist paint or draw a picture of a spirit creating something tangible.
I also thing that via the infinite and perfect grace and mercy of God you and I will get to see the Glory of God in heaven but perhaps after a stint in Purgatory.
Pax Um Biscum,
Fred

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In the best of cases I am already counting on a rather "long" stint in Pugatory. But what does that mean if we consider the final Prize!! :):)
God Bless
Claude

Claude,
To me the "Final Prize" is worth the wait and purification.
Pax Um Biscum,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Claude,
To me the "Final Prize" is worth the wait and purification.
Pax Um Biscum,
Fred

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ABSOLUTELY!! :):):)
Claude

God Created Heaven first - then the other heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Watch how God Creates and you'll see that He first Creates space, then fills it. Heaven is large - very large. It contains God's Throne and all the angels He Created (10,000 times 10,000, and thousands of thousands - Revelation 5:11). The angels number in the hundreds of millions and many are very large. They would need a lot of room for their work and service to God. The New Jerusalem is about 1,500 miles high by 1,500 miles wide by 1,500 miles long and comes down out of Heaven from God (Revelation 21:2). A city of that size would fill up much of the United States and tower far above the International Space Station on its way toward the moon. Remember, that's a city that comes down out of Heaven toward the earth. Heaven is beautiful to behold. God used pure gold and extremely valuable jewels and stones in the Creation of Heaven. He used them in sizes and weights far above anything we have ever seen on earth. Heaven is filled with the Glory of God and the songs of His creatures. It is beautiful, powerful and filled with tremendous joy.

Dear McGee,
I am sure you realize that using the Scriptures in this particular case to describe what Heaven is like, is somewhat like telling children a beautiful tale to explain the Kingdom!
We cannot ignore the fact that the Genesis was supposedly written by Moses some 4000 years ago and S. John wrote de Revelation at Patmos, towards the year 60 or 70 AD.
In both cases, the authors had to have recourse to rather fantastic descriptions bearing in mind tha level of knowledge prevailing among the readers of those texts.
Trying to describe that the size of Heaven is more of less like the USA is equivalent to pretending that Heaven must be situated somewhere over our heads. Incidentally, what heads are we speaking about? Ours or the Australians?
Seriously speaking. Heaven or the Kingdom of God cannot be described by using Earthen terminology. Can we describe GOD? Can we pretend to know what Heaven is like and how many Angels are there?
Do you really believe that going to Heaven implies living a happy life for ever and ever, surrounded by angels playing nice music, among beautiful gardens and eating the most delightful fruits...
Because this is rather the idea Muslims have of their paradise by adding a few scores of beautiful "houries".
My own idea of Heaven is that the contemplation of GOD, in all HIS magnificence, will be the one and only source of a happiness beyond description for our souls.
Our ideas of space, size, number, shape, measurements, location, time, age, pleasure, etc. cannot have any meaning in Heaven. I think that the vision of GOD will completely surround us and we will not need anything else!
As for measures let us not forget that GOD created the Universe we know at present some 14 billion years ago!! Which means absolutely nothing for GOD has NO beginning and NO end. And what GOD created has no known limits to us; at least, so far.
Besides, how can you speak of people from our world only when there are probably hundreds of billions of galaxies with hundred of billions of planets that may contain some sort of living beings...
We have to be cery cautious when we speak about GOD and ITS Kingdom for we really know nothing about IT.
Otherwise, we may as well stick to ehat the Genesis also says about the creation of our World in 7 days...
Regars
Cromitt82

Greetings! Heaven is not the size of the USA. It is a supernatural place of size and dimension beyond our comprehension. An angel of God gave John the Apostle specific measurements for the New Jerusalem which will come out of Heaven to the new earth.

Salve! You are of course referring to what St. Joh is saying regarding his alleged vision of an angel that gives him the supposed measurements of the New Jerusalem.
We may admit that John had some kind of inspiration or dream that made him write what he said in this respect.
But, again, I must emphasize that whether a vision, a dream or an inspiration it was in tuning with the knowledge available to both St. John (who was more or less by himself in the isle of Patmos) and the people of the 1st century.
This could be a similar case to the Pentateuch by Moses. According to some exegetes it was dictated by Yahwe, and if this was actually the case, then Yahwe had to dictate points and data that both Moses and his followers could understand.
I cannot imagine Moses writing the Genesis and talking about the Big Bang and an Universe already aged some 14 billion years where our world is just like the most insignificant particle...
On the other hand, and as I said in my previous mail, you cannot speak of a "supernatural place of size and dimension beyond our comprehension". We cannot apply any noun to Heaven. We cannot refer to it as a "supernatural place" for we do not know whether it is a "place", as we understand it, or simply an abstract idea.
Talking about "places" and sizes is what the Greek did when they spoke of the Olympus and of the throne where Zeus was ruling our World from.
But GOD is not Zeus and HIS Kingdom is not the Greek Pantheon.
All that we should be interested in knowing about Heaven is that IT is the supreme reward we can expect to receive if we just abide by the "11" Commandments of the Law!
This is the message left by Jesus Christ and, if we have faith, we must believe it.
All the rest, does not really matters.
Gromitt82

Very interesting responses here. Jesus said "unless a man become born again he can not see the Kingdom of God...neither enter it" (John 3:3) Are you born again? If you are then you have the capcity to see the Kingdom of God, its not with your physcal eyes but spiritual eyes. God has already raised us up, and has made us sit togeather in Heavenly places in Christ!! I am so astounded at the doubt and unbelife of the Church today. Does anybody really believe the truth of the Bible? I don't think to many do. The Church needs to wakeup and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on us!! Please... lets begin excercising our spiritual senses so we can see, feel, taste, touch, and hear God.s Kingdom today... Let us lay hold onto eternal life!!

Curtis

In John 3:5 Jesus goes on: 'I tell you the truth; no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.' Obviously, Jesus was not talking about a physical new birth, but a spiritual rebirth.
In a way, before we are born again, we are sort of walking corpses, spiritually dead. From outward appearances, we are alive and nothing seems wrong with us. But inside we are creatures of sin, dominated and controlled by it.
But, just as we cannot give physical birth to ourselves, we cannot accomplish this spiritual birth by ourselves, either. God gives it, but through faith in Christ we can request it.
After the new birth, our regeneration is so complete it can be described as nothing less than a totally new life in the spirit. The apostle Paul puts it this way:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Corinthians 5:17, NIV)
The sad and amazing thing, however, is that throughout the 2000 years that have gone by since Jesus spoke of the “new birth” most of us, Christians, are still sinning despite having been born again spiritually.
And it is even sadder to see that, more often than not, throughout history, some of those who were to bear witness to Jesus’ Words (Popes, Cardinals, Bishops... ) are those who apparently could not care less about them!
In his outgoing address in front of 150,000 people in St Peter’s Square, the emeriti Pope Benedict XVI said there had been times when “it seemed like the Lord was sleeping” during his crisis-hit papacy.
Benedict XVI said there had been moments of joy during his tenure, but that “stormy waters and headwinds” had left the church in difficulty.
He was, of course, clearly referring to the indubitable struggles many Cardinals fight for more power within the very Curia in the Vatican.
Does it mean that these Princes of the Church do not really believe into what they are preaching?
The history of our Church is full of these indescribable behaviors (Dante wrote a lot about them in his Divine Comedy). But I would have said that in the 21st century we might have become truer Christians at that level.
Obviously, they still think they are in the Renaissance!
Shame on them! For they may have forgotten Jesus’ statement: 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' (John 14:6:)
Gromitt82

If you are wanting a true answer then I can help. There is a lot of questions on this and most do not get an answer that is in any way the truth. When a minister talks about Heaven he is describing Gods Throne and where He is located. He is also describing a place to where they teach individuals will go when they die.

This is not true for Revelation Ch 20: states that God Kingdom will be on this Earth for 1000 years. Check it out;

"If you are wanting a true answer then I can help. :


Why is your answer more valid, more eduated, than anyone else's?

Do not believe me, check it out. That is the problem now, most want do that for themselves, what makes their minister much smarter than them. Check things out and you may find the truth. Jesus said to seek for the truth, not just shake your head in agreement and go on.

- assuming, of course, that you believe in Jesus.

JudyKayTee.

Believing in Jesus or not believing in Jesus is like believing or not in Lat Tse, Siddharta Gautama, Confucious. Mohammed or Napoleon, for that matters! All of them are historical personages whose life has been widely explained by learned historians. You are, of course entitled to deny Jesus as much as you are also entitled to deny Mohammed or Napoleon.

You may even believe they are all fiction characters due to exalted imagination of some writers who wanted to tell beautiful invented histories for their amusement. It is absolutely irrelevant, for the actual fact is that all these personages did exist.

On the other hand, discussing whether Heaven is up or down or the Kingdom of God is like the garden of Eden where God is sitting waiting for us to meet Him is quite pretentious in my humble opinion, although quite in accordance with men's arrogance.

We most often forget. When speaking of the Bible, the time when its Books were written and/or who wrote them and whom for. In actual fact, nobody down here can truly explain what Heaven is like and, actually, nobody came back to tell us about the Kingdom of God.
Only Jesus told us what we should expect in case we deserve to be admitted there.

The glory of the Kingdom of God simply lies on the contemplation of God. Just as Heaven is nothing but denying this contemplation.

What this contemplation implies or means is beyond earthy words or intelligence. It is a concept, like eternity, that we cannot even start to comprehend no matter how great our IQ may be.

How can we be so presumptous as to pretend we know anything about God or His Kingdom? We surely cannot expect the Creator of the Universe to be a good white bearded old man sitting on a golden throne like Jupiter, can we?

At least, this is what I believe, though I can also be utterly wrong..

Gromitt82

"Believing in Jesus or not believing in Jesus is like believing or not in Lat Tse, Siddharta Gautama, Confucious. Mohammed or Napoleon, for that matters! All of them are historical personages whose life has been widely explained by learned historians. You are, of course entitled to deny Jesus as much as you are also entitled to deny Mohammed or Napoleon.

You may even believe they are all fiction characters due to exalted imagination of some writers who wanted to tell beautiful invented histories for their amusement. It is absolutely irrelevant, for the actual fact is that all these personages did exist."

Just for clarification I meant "believe" as in "believe in/pray to," not "believe in he ever existed."

I was raised Roman Catholic. We prayed to God. The "movement," which is the only word I can think of to describe it, toward Jesus is foreign to me.

Your post is enlightening, non confrontational, very well stated. It's people who post with your information, attitude (I think) who create believers, who create discussions as opposed to what I call the "rabid faction."

Thank you for your well planned out and expressed response - and that's sincere.

You are welcome! And you are welcome too to any other subject of dicussion you may deem of interest as far as our own Religion is concerned. Do not take me wrong if I say that I do nothing but to try to understand myself the many things I cannot grasp and that confuse my mind.
But, as I said our intelligence is so limited...

Gromitt82

Thanks - I just may take you up on this offer -

Whenever you feel like. Let me warn you, however, that I'm an old goat (87), although without a beard, and, consequently, rather stubborn. I'm also Spanish which means Mediterranean, which imply a happier approach to life than Anglo-Saxons.
This said, I repeat, I am at your disposal.

Gromitt82

Freeman,

?? The 1000 years the Lord rules this earth has NOTHING to do with where people go when they die. I'm very confused by what you are saying..

Right now when someone dies and they are a believer they are with the Lord in heaven. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now, how does that have anything to do with the 1000 year rule? I don't get it.

ClassyT

Be careful and do not take the Holy Bible literally, word for word. St. John wrote his Revelation in the isle of Patmos about the year 70 AD. It was surely more intended for his contemporary followers than for us... And only God knows when Jesus' Parusia will take place...

So take it easy and relax. Try your best to keep walking the line and hope for the best. We are not to tell whether we shall reach the Kingdom of God. And it is also irrelevant its location or whether physical or simply spiritual. None of us has the password to let us in for this is up to God to decide in Judgement Day.

Gromitt82

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Originally Posted by ;

We are not to tell whether or not we shall reach the Kingdom of God.

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John 5:24 "He that hears my words and believes on the one that sent me has eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death into life." I don't know how you get around that. Or Romans 5:1 "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

That's the biggest difference between biblical Christianity and too many of our denominations today. The biblical Jesus gives assurance that we are his, that we have passed from death into life, that we have eternal life and all the rest. Too many denominations overlook that part and keep people frightened that they somehow won't measure up. To me it's really a form of cruelty and a way to control people. Jesus says we can KNOW. Paul says that we DO KNOW. If your church says you can't or don't, you need a different church.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Freeman,

???? The 1000 years the the Lord rules this earth has NOTHING to do with where people go when they die. I'm very confused by what you are saying..

Right now when someone dies and they are a believer they are with the Lord in heaven. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now, how does that have anything to do with the 1000 year rule? I don't get it.

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Psalms 6:3-5 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

Isaiah 38:18-19, "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth."

I'm sure you're wondering. "Just where do we go when we die?" Don't go running to get this answer from your preacher, teacher, friend, pastor, or priest. Just go back in the Bible to find out. It is were you should always go when you're in question. However if you do at times have to go to a person for answers, always verify it in the Word of God before making any final decisions! Don't trust me or any man! Go to God's Word for the final answer and you will never go wrong.

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11-14... Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The disciples thought when Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping that he would be OK. So Jesus had to plainly say "Lazarus is dead."

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep

I think that is proof enough that when one dies they will stay in the grave until the return of Christ. If one has gods Holy Spirit as they are quickened or that is preserved for that day.

There is no one in Heaven at this time except God and His son, Jesus Christ. There is more proof but I think this is enough but only if one has Gods spirit to understand it with.

Mr. Freeman,

Poppycock. The apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He himself couldn't wait to be with Jesus and said so in his epistles. Jesus himself said that God was not the God of the dead but the LIVING...

Well said Classy!

What is your explanation for 2 Corinthians 12:2?

Classy,

The biblical Jesus gives assurance that we are his, that we have passed from death into life, that we have eternal life and all the rest

Are you, by any chance, implying that because of that we can just do as we please and be guaranteed a first class ticket in the train to Heaven?

If you do, please accept my congratulations. Little old me, instead, share the strong believe that I will be more than lucky if I am allowed in the old caboose of the shabbiest train to Heaven.

Gromitt82

The one in 2 Cor 12: 2 was given an insight of what things will be like, he what he saw was a vision.


John 3:13


King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Sorry, that is what it states.

Precisely. Here Paul admits he does NOT know. " I do not know—God knows".
And then it was just a vision that 2000 years ago, a man of that time, who had until recently been persecuting Jesus' followers, thought he had seen. Obviously, a man of the 1st century did not reason as a man of the 21st century.

And here again, John acknowledges that "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man"

Accepting this evidence,who are we to tell what Heaven is like and where should it be. We keep imagining Heaven as some sort of place, a paradise, but then how do we know it is not something immaterial, fully spiritual, as God itself?

Gromitt82

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Originally Posted by ;

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

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Except that the last part, "which is in heaven" isn't part of the original, and isn't something Jesus said. It was added later by a scribe and found its way into the Greek text that was used for the King James. But John didn't write and Jesus never said it. He also said this before Paul's famous experience, so it has no bearing on the question of 2 Cor 12:2 anyway.

So I don't guess that you want any part of the Kingdom of God that will be set up on this Earth? Just exactly what is wrong with this God Given Earth?

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Originally Posted by ;

So I don't guess that you want any part of the Kingdom of God that will be set up on this Earth? Just exactly what is wrong with this God Given Earth?

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I have no idea what this question is supposed to have to do with anything we've been discussing. I'm with HH: it's impossible to have an actual conversation with you. So I'm done. You keep saying you're presenting the Scriptures; I point out an error in your analysis, and you go off on a tangent about this stuff. That tells me how well you (refuse to) take critiques of your methodology. There's no point in continuing this.

Nooooo kidding...

I do not mean to come across this way but it seems that there are many who do not read their Bible t get the facts.

What I said was that the Heaven that everyone is looking for will be here on this Earth and will be set up by Jesus Christ and will be ruled by His sons and or daughters who are the elect. They will be Kings and priests, helping in setting up God Kingdom on Earth.

Many prophecies point to this, then may be some of you do not believe Prophecy, I don't know.

I could quote scripture after scripture as proof and all that would be said is, where did you get that. Learn to read you bible.

Www.americasfinaldaysprophecy.org

Sigh...

Freeman,

What in the world did Jesus mean when he told the thief on the cross "today thou shalt be with me in paradise'? Hello?

Since the Lord's finished work on the cross we ARE absent from the body and present with the Lord. What do you DO with these verses?

Please explain them. Explain why Paul was ready to go be with the Lord Jesus and he explained that to depart and be with him was FAR better.

Please explain what Paul meant. Please explain what Jesus meant.

Dwashbur,

For the sake of debating the subject would you mind telling me who on earth can claim so categorically and definitely that Jesus never said this or that or that a certain phrase, word or paragraph was added or deleted by a scribe of some kind?

To the best of my knowledge in Jesus' time there were no tape recorders, which made quite difficult to record in some way what He was saying.

Whatever Jesus said or did was subject to the personal interpretation and explanation of those who were present. Those who bore witness of Jesus was saying, either orally transmitted to third parties what they had heard or remembered or wrote in Arameic, or eventually in old Greek, what they could remember by adding or omitting whatever they deemed it to be convenient.

The synoptic Gospels have a number of coincidences which may lead us to think they are rather accurate. But these are the Canonical (together with John's) accepted by Irenaeus of Lyons, in 185 AD and later on at the Council of Rome (4th century).

But they were not the only ones written and, therefore, they were those that would later on be translated into the Greek, Latin and modern languages and upon which the King James version is based.

But then, there are the Apocryphal (Infancy Gospels, Jewish/Christian Gospels, Gnostic Gospels, and a number of other Gospels and writings, all of which form the so called New Testament Apochrypha.

These writings have also been translated and should also be taken into consideration if we really want to depict Jesus' acurate profile.

As far as some of us are concerned the Canonical Gospels do clarify rather well Jesus' life so they are good enough for us. But we will never go to the extent of saying that "this is exactly what Jesus did or said" because we were not there and because there are, as I said, many other versions which may differ of what the 4 Evangelists wrote.

Gromitt82

He told the thief" today, I am on this cross and I am telling you at this time, that you will be with me in the Kingdom of God when that time comes. He just assured the thief that he, the thief would be in Gods Kingdom when it was established.

It's called textual criticism. Look it up; it's one of the most basic fields of study about the Bible, and especially about the New Testament. Go learn what manuscripts are, why we need to study them, and what the results are.

And please stop resurrecting 5-year-old threads.

As for your comment on the "today" thing, that is one of the worst approaches to Greek grammar I have seen yet. As if changing the English punctuation is going to alter the grammatical structure of the original? In the Greek text, "today" modifies "will be with me." If he had said "today I am on the cross" the thief would have replied "No duh, I can see that!" It's a meaningless statement that makes Jesus sound like an idiot, and it bears no resemblance to anything ever said in Koine Greek. Genuine Greek scholars have debunked this idea dozens of times in the past 50 years or so, because it's nonsense. It's wishful thinking. It's deliberate manipulation for the sake of a predefined doctrine. And it's wrong.

Grommit,

I am confused. If you do NOT see the bible as God's perfect word to us... why bother?

I am amazed at how accurate prophecy is in the bible. These 66 books were written by different people but the author was still the same. The Holy spirit. He inspired all of it.

Frankly if you can't know anything for sure, I'd say eat drink and be merry... who cares. At the Great White Throne I would plead that how could we know for sure any of it was true. I would also let God know there was no tapings of Christ.

The thing is... we could have actual tapes of Christ and his teaching and people wouldn't believe, They would argue his very words with his very voice. How do I know this? Because it takes FAITH to believe and there were plenty of people who witnessed miracle after miracle, teaching after teaching and walk away in unbelief.

The bible I believe by faith to be the written word of God and without error. Otherwise.. what is the point?

Freeman,

Read your bible. He didn't say any of that. He simple looked at the guy after he called him LORD and said... "TODAY you will be with ME in paradise" Today means TODAY.. clear as it can be and you would rather spin it to make your theology of slumber work. Well it doesn't work.

Explain the mount of transfiguration? How in the world did Moses and Elijah show up on the mount to talk to the Lord.

How did the witch of endor contact Samuel. Wasn't he suppose to be sawing logs? God is very much the God of the living. The only thing these dear saints are waiting for is to ge their new bodies. Now if you want to say their bodies are "asleep" FINE. But their soul and spirit are very much alive and the bible teaches just that.