Since that was what you were referring to on this thread that would be a start.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
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Since that was what you were referring to on this thread that would be a start.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Yeah Tessy my friend, the Tribulation wasn't nearly as bad as I'd heard it would be. Has the anti-Christ stepped into the temple yet?
Quoting classyT:
"You told me until I understood your point you wouldn't go further. So I dropped it. I am NOT side steppin ya."
I've repeated my quotes below to show HOW they relate to "ALL about how salvation works."
...First I will give verses that show that our human faith is work.1 Thessalonians 1:3 says "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love..."
2 Thessalonians 1:11 says "... the good pleasure of [his] goodness and the work of faith with power."
James 2:20 says "... faith without works is dead."
James 2:26 says "... So faith without works is dead also."
James 2:18 says "Yea a man may say Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew the my faith by my works."
All those references indicate to me absolutely clearly that faith is work by the Bible's own DEFINITION. In my opinion there can be NO DEBATE ON THIS POINT.
I'm not giving in on this point ! FAITH IS WORK. AS SUCH IT CAN MAKE NO CONTRIBUTION TO MY BECOMING SAVED. Do you see that or not ?
Quoting speechlesstx:
"Since that was what you were referring to on this thread that would be a start."
I'd like to give you all the information about those two subjects I can. The problem is that I also am only a student, and I'm following a teacher who has quite a bit more knowledge than I do. To make it easy on myself, I can refer you to Mr. Harold Camping's publications, all of which are available FREE, postpaid. One book is entiltled "THE END OF THE CHURCH AGE AND AFTER." Another is called "WE ARE ALMOST THERE."
HSB, we're all still students. But if you want to make the assertion that the church age has ended you should be better prepared than to refer us to some other dude's writings... especially while challenging us to prove things via scripture. Don't you think?
I answered all of these some time ago and you dodged, which shows how much you're actually listening to any view other than your own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Quoting speechlesstx:
"especially while challenging us"
What is this "US" ? If you, personally, feel challenged how is that my responsibility ? I've given you information that will answer your questions. If that is not exactly the form you would have preferred, too bad.
Quoting dwashbur:
"I answered all of these some time ago."
I did not post them (originally or otherwise) just for you personally. You are free to answer them or not. Likewise, I am free to deal with your response or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
"but very little serious Bible research and effort to answer valid points of view, other than the ones held by CONSENSUS."
Sounds like a challenge to "us" to me, but you just keep "dancing around" instead of answering anything. And if you can't see the irony of offering us someone else's opinion while criticizing the "consensus" then you need a new hobby.
Quoting speechlesstx
My aim is to teach what I have learned from the Bible, and from other teachers of the Bible. Others who show interest in my views are welcome to share my knowledge.Quote:
criticizing the "consensus" then you need a new hobby
I repeat, The Church Age ended in 1988. At the same time The Great Tribulation began, and Satan was officially installed by God in all the churches on Earth as the de-facto ruler. The tribulation is scheduled to last 23 years. Then The Day of Judgment will begin. 153 days later the whole creation will be annihilated by fire. As of this moment there is still time to plead with God for mercy (salvation).
I can only laugh that people are caught up in these cults, but then the bigger the lie, the easier it is often for people to accept.
Challenge is not the word I would use, amuse, even humor since it is not possible for me to even take such silly and completely non Christian teachings serious.
WOW that is a stretch. Please quote chapter and verse for your statements here.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Dwashbur:
No you DID NOT!! In fact you're the one who dodged!Quote:
I answered all of these some time ago and you dodged
What you did offer was mere ridicule. You did not address the individual Bible references POINT BY POINT.
450donn
You are correct, it is quite a stretch. And obviously the Bible does not spell any of this out verbatim. Using your kind of simple-minded logic, therefore, I cannot just like that, INSTANTLY give you all the references from the Bible that tend to SUPPORT the conclusions I've declared.Quote:
WOW that is a stretch. Please quote chapter and verse for your statements here.
Rather the whole scenario needs to be CAREFULLY ANALYZED to see EXACTLY where, and exactly how the Bible does, or does not support the time-line under discussion.
As you can see from this quote, the atmosphere here, on this site, is somewhat "hostile" to any serious consideration of the material I've presented. Therefore, I make no "blanket" promises or claims. But if you would address your specific questions to this thread, I'll do my best (worst) to answer them.Quote:
Challenge is not the word I would use, amuse, even humor since it is not possible for me to even take such silly and completely non Christian teachings serious.
What's the significance of October 20th, 2011, according to Mr. Camping?
Wondergirl:
The correct date is Oct. 21, 2011. It comes exactly 153 days after May 21, 2011. There are at least two specific references to this five month period. (Revelation 9:5 and Rev.9:10) One reference to 153 comes from John 21:11. But these references are only the tip of the "ice-berg." It remains to be shown exactly HOW all of the other information fits together with these pieces.Quote:
What's the significance of October 20th, 2011, according to Mr. Camping?
Oct. 21 itself is the vey last day of the five month period known as THE DAY OF JUDGMENT. On that day "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The Earth also and the works therein shall be burnt up." 2 Peter 3:10
What happens if it doesn't happen as predicted?
Wondergirl
Mr. Camping himself takes offense at that question. He says that he gimself does not even entertain such a thought because it is equivalent to saying "I don't trust the Bible."Quote:
What happens if it doesn't happen as predicted?
Me ? I'm not quite that emphatic. I would say that somewhere in ALL the studying, praying, and writing we misunderstood something important. In that case we would clearly need to go back to the "drawing board" so to speak and ask some more very serious questions.
P.S. That's why I'm hoping some other people, besides myself, who are perhaps somewhat skeptical will approach this with an open mind (at least) and seriously look at the DETAILS of what Mr. Camping has published. Using their critical and analytic skills, with prayer, any errors or fallacies in reasoning may be exposed BEFORE we get to May. 21. When it will be too late.
Mr. Camping, along with hordes of others, have messed up before with a prediction. It's not the Bible I don't trust.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
My money is on the belief that May 22nd will dawn, and all will be as usual. Why will it be too late? You're assuming he's correct?Quote:
BEFORE we get to May. 21. When it will be too late.
Wondergirl:
Yes. I'm assuming. Let's call it an "educated" assumption.Quote:
Why will it be too late? You're assuming he's correct?
So, I take it you're not about to dive into a very thorough personal investigation of the published material. And it's all available free of charge, at the risk of repeating myself. And if you can think of any more questions, I'd be happy to answer, to the best of my ability.
Why should I bother? He's wrong. And if he's wrong on that, I'm betting he's wrong about a few other details.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Here's another thought you may have overlooked. There definitely will be a Judgment Day... one day. And if past history is any indication, the example you've given of all the others who have tried to predict accurately and failed, eventually someone is BOUND to hit it exactly and be right.
Why couldn't it be Camping ? In my opinion the material he's offering is true to the Bible. It DESERVES AT LEAST VERY SERIOUS CONSIDERATION.
It might be tomorrow... or the next day. I'm ready. I don't need a prediction.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Will Camping get points or special favors in heaven if he turns out to be right?
His opinion. Your opinion. I wouldn't even give my own mother's opinion any credit.Quote:
Why couldn't it be Camping ? In my opinion the material he's offering is true to the Bible. It DESERVES AT LEAST VERY SERIOUS CONSIDERATION.[
Gee, I beg to differ with you on Rev9:5. It is referring to one of the plagues that God unleashes on the earth. Taken literally there will be creatures let loose on the earth to torment people for a period of five months. This is the fifth trumpet, the fifth plague if you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Cannot fathom how you get any more out of John 21 than a man fishing and God blessing his catch.
Like I said before please explain yourself or refrain from making such brash and outlandish statements. It is only fair to the rest of us that you substantiate your claims with scriptures. Not merely conjecture or the claims you read in some book. Unless that book is the Bible it is only the thoughts of man. Heck I could take the fictional thoughts out of the Left Behind series and spout them here, but I know they are a work of fiction from two men's minds.
Wondergirl
I agree totally. It's definitely NOT a matter of opinion. Acts 17:31 says:"...He hath APPOINTED a day in the which he will judge the world..." An appointment CANNOT happen at random. It is a set date.Quote:
His opinion. Your opinion. I wouldn't even give my own mother's opinion any credit.
Amos 3:7 says:"Surely the Lord Jehovah will do NOTHING but He revealeth his secret to His servants the prophets."
And look at the examples of the great flood of Noah's day, the city of Nineveh in Jonah's day, and the cities of Sodom in Lot's day. In EVERY case God gave SPECIFIC warning and SPECIFIC TIME to His prophets. Will He do it any differently this time ? Yes, "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." But for whom?? Only for those who remain "in the night" (spiritual darkness). Look at 1 Thessalonians 5:4. "But ye brethren are NOT in darkness that that day should overtake YOU as a thief. Clearly there are some who WILL KNOW. And what about Ezekiel 33:6 ? "But if the watchman see the sword come and blow not the trumpet... " Clearly the watchmen, the prophets (true believers), MUST know the precise time. Otherwise HOW COULD THEY GIVE CLEAR WARNING ? Want more scriptures ? It's NOT anyone's opinion. It's the Bible.
450donn
On what basis do you take it literally ? There are other methods of interpretation (hermeneutics). Is it a matter of personal preference ?Quote:
Taken literally
You had used the phrase "in my opinion," so I was working off that.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
But God's not telling anyone when. It's a secret.Quote:
Acts 17:31 says:"...He hath APPOINTED a day in the which he will judge the world..." An appointment CANNOT happen at random. It is a set date.
Different secret.Quote:
Amos 3:7 says:"Surely the Lord Jehovah will do NOTHING but He revealeth his secret to His servants the prophets."
You're twisting the meaning of "night."Quote:
Will He do it any differently this time ? Yes, "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." But for whom?? Only for those who remain "in the night" (spiritual darkness).
The true believers are not prophets. And they don't know the precise time.Quote:
the prophets (true believers), MUST know the precise time.
It's Mr. Camping's opinion and his interpretation of some passages.Quote:
It's NOT anyone's opinion. It's the Bible.
I take what the Bible says to be the truth. Not some mans opinion of what the Bible says. You on the other hand seem to want to twist and bend what the Bible says to match your notion of the truth. So, again I will ask you. Please quote chapter and verse to substantiate your outlandish claims of the world being in the tribulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Wondergirl
Ecclesiastes 8:5"... and a wise (man's) heart discerneth (shall know) time and judgment."Quote:
Acts 17:31 says:"...He hath APPOINTED a day in the which he will judge the world..." An appointment CANNOT happen at random. It is a set date. But God's not telling anyone when. It's a secret.
Quoting :
Amos 3:7 says:"Surely the Lord Jehovah will do NOTHING but He revealeth his secret to His servants the prophets." Different secret.
450donn, these quotations are for you also. And I agree that they are outlandish. Name calling, however, does not change anything.
Outlandish? That's putting it mildly. They have nothing to do with the Last Judgment. Read the above verse in context.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Totally out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Acts 17:31 is telling us that Jesus is the appointed one who will sit in judgment. You really need to stop taking things out of context and start reading the whole passage.
Amos 3:7?
Wondergirl, 450donn, et al...
I understand that these few verses I'm presenting are not conclusive enough to be definite proof. BUT, the mere possibility that they can be interepeted in the way I suggest, should cause people who respect the Bible to at least CONSIDER that it may be necessary to RETHINK some long held and cherished beliefs.Quote:
That's putting it mildly.
Why do you continue to hedge? Those verses were taken out of context completely. They have NOTHING to do with what you had hoped and do NOT support your "cherished" beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
A long time ago, I read a commentary on Romans that quite literally never mentioned eternal life once. When it got to 6:23, it said "When Paul says the wages of sin is death, what he means is that a life lived in sin is a life that's not really worth living." Now, this commentator never even touched the second half of the verse. Are you claiming that, because he found a way to make such an interpretation, it should cause me to rethink everything I actually know about that verse? Anybody can come up with any interpretation of any word, phrase or sentence in the Bible. That doesn't mean people who know better should give every potential interpretation equal credence. Here's a classic example for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Judas... went out and hanged himself. Matt 27:5
Go thou and do likewise. Luke 10:37
That thou doest, do quickly. John 13:27
It's clear what the Bible is telling you to do, because some guy you've never met and really know nothing about says he's had a revelation and this is what God really expects of you. Are you going to do it?
*DISCLAIMER*
This is satire. I am NOT telling you to kill yourself. If you decide to do so, it's your fault, not mine.
The idea that some interpretation, however out of context, anachronistic or manipulative, COULD have validity is not just a poor way to approach the Bible, it's potentially dangerous.
Dwashbur
I agree with the above statement. And I have been aware of it for many years. Your sentence explains precisely how it's possible for the great variety of Christian denominations and their often conflicting interpretations to exist. Even though all of them claim to follow the inerrant Bible.Quote:
The idea that some interpretation, however out of context, anachronistic or manipulative, COULD have validity is not just a poor way to approach the Bible, it's potentially dangerous.
Clearly the "classic" example you've presented is nothing more than a clever game with words. Ha, ha.
The fact remains that we (Camping-ites) do follow a particular method (hermeneutic). It is not just a game designed to bring about a particular man-made result.(May 21, 2011) And that method has affected virtually every major Christian doctrine. For example:
[1] The availability of justification to all Old Testament believers BY THE SAME SALVATION that is available to the New Testament believers. A critical doctrine.
[2] Many other details of God's salvation and judgment that are misunderstood by those who follow the man-made hermeneutics.(grammatical-historical, etc.)
I have never disputed the idea that God's salvation is by faith in any and every age of humankind. Sometimes that faith is forward-looking (Old Testament) and sometimes it's backward-looking (New Testament). And I have never heard any major Christian theologian, minister or anyone else try to say that there were two different methods of salvation in the Bible. So what you have there is a cure for which there is no known disease.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Um, grammatical - what the words, sentences and paragraphs actually say - and historical - what the writer meant to say, its context of its time, culture and language, is the only reliable hermeneutic there is. It is not man-made, it is common sense. What did Paul or Jeremiah or whoever write and what did he mean to say? The only way to really determine that is to get inside the writer's head, and that means in terms of language, culture, setting, and intention. If you're trying to say that's a bad hermeneutic, you're totally wrong.Quote:
[2] Many other details of God's salvation and judgment that are misunderstood by those who follow the man-made hermeneutics.(grammatical-historical, etc.)
Dwashbur
Your statement is irrelevant because I'm not diputing you, or your personal beliefs. What I am harping on is the very definition of the word faith as it applies to salvation.Quote:
I have never disputed the idea that God's salvation is by faith in any and every age of humankind.
For example Christ is called (named) "faithful and true." Therefore those specific verses that say "Abraham believed, and God counted it for righteousness unto him," should more properly be understood if we substitute "Christ" (or Him - referring to God Himself) for "it." In other words the true meaning to those confusing verses is found when we read it thusly: "Abraham believed, and God counted Him (Christ) for righteousness unto him (Abraham)."
If we interpret that way, the result is a completely different understanding of faith that is toward salvation. It takes the work of faith out of our hands (the work of justification) and puts it squarely into the hands of God alone. Where it has always been, and where it should remain.
Huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
The work of Justification was done by Jesus on the cross. The work of Sanctification ("brings me to faith and keeps me in that faith") is done by the Spirit with our cooperation.Quote:
It takes the work of faith out of our hands (the work of justification) and puts it squarely into the hands of God alone. Where it has always been, and where it should remain.
Sorry, but the Hebrew of Gen 15:6 won't support your interpretation. It reads literally "He believed [or, trusted] YHWH, and he treated it as righteousness for him." Hebrew just doesn't work the way you're trying to read it. It says what the major translations say, and your guy is wrong. Jesus being called "faithful," which incidentally is a completely different word in the original, has nothing to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Dwashbur
Your quoted sentence exactly illustrates my point. The atonement made by Christ was, at the time of Adam and Eve, already a done deal. And Mr. Camping has been able to verify that from scriptures. Here are two of the plainest verses (there are others) to support that contention. "Although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." (Hebrews 4:3) "And without the shedding of blood there is no remission." Hebrews 9:22 indicates that atonement (shedding of blood) had to be made before any sins could be forgiven.Quote:
I have never disputed the idea that God's salvation is by faith in any and every age of humankind. Sometimes that faith is forward-looking (Old Testament) and sometimes it's backward-looking (New Testament).
Your sentence shows that "looking forward" and "looking back" are two different methods of atonement that are not supported by scriptures. The Bible I read teaches that all believers, both Old Testament and New Testament must look back to the atoning work of Christ that was completed before the creation of the world. The cross in 33 AD serving a different function, other than atonement.
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