I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
No, never. Good heavens!Quote:
And not permit it to degenerate to a mere expression of my opinion versus the opinions of others.
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I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
No, never. Good heavens!Quote:
And not permit it to degenerate to a mere expression of my opinion versus the opinions of others.
And how exactly did he make known which were which?Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
I'm not sure what the names of the books have to do with anything, but the dictation idea is ridiculous. If God dictated word for word, then he couldn't make up his mind what kind of writing style to use, and in the case of Revelation, apparently he barely knew Greek at all, though he knew it quite well when he dictated Luke and Hebrews.Quote:
Because God is the actual author of the Bible, and the various names given to the various books are only the names of people that God used as scribes that took His dictation.
So what? Your point wasQuote:
It is also true that many people were saved without having access to the complete Bible as we do today. But the fact remains that WE DO HAVE ACCESS to the complete Bible.
You said several times that it requires the entire Bible to understand and achieve salvation. Fr. Chuck pointed out that plenty of people were saved without any Bible at all, or just bits and pieces, and you have completely sidestepped that. I have to wonder why you don't address the point that you yourself made.Quote:
There is no salvation other than from the Bible.
Same problem. As Fr. Chuck already pointed out, and you agreed, plenty of people were saved without access to the whole Bible, so your reasoning doesn't hold up, because reality contradicts it.Quote:
And it is a wonderful blessing from God. And He expects His people to appreciate it, and to respect it, and to make EVERY EFFORT to keep learning more and more truth from His word. And the plain fact is that the Bible is NOT a SIMPLE BOOK. So to try and simplify God's message by ignoring the Bible is NOT the best approach to understanding salvation.
Quoting dwashbur:
"How exactly...etc.?"
How He makes it known to us today is through the harmony that the included books have with one another. And the excluded books do not harmonize.
"I'm not sure what the names...etc."
As you well know the names of the books are often used by theologians to indicate AUTHORSHIP. For example Matthew wrote the book called Matthew, John wrote the book called John, etc.
"the dictation idea is ridiculous...etc."
The differences in style you correctly point out do NOT eliminate the idea of dictation. Why is it not possible that God could use the styles of the various individuals AND YET express EXACTLY the words HE wanted them to say ? There is no reason that such a thing would be impossible for God.
"So what ? Your point was...etc."
The point of HAVING access to the completed Bible is that we are to make use of it, and to CONTINUE TO STUDY PARTICULARLY THOSE PARTS THAT ARE NOT YET UNDERSTOOD BY US. And there is NO WAY that you can honestly tell ME that you currently understand ALL OF IT. NO WAY !!!
"You said several times...etc."
I still maintain that it is necessary to look at everything in the whole Bible to come to a proper understanding of God's plan of salavation. But... understanding salvation is NOT THE SAME AS ACHIEVING SALVATION. I would NEVER make such a statement. We CAN UNDERSTAND, but that is mere KNOWLEDGE. God Himself is still in charge of actually saving ANYONE. So, therefore understanding His plan, while important and necessary for those who claim to follow the Bible PARTICULARLY, it still does not GET US SAVED. God Himself MUST do that. And He has done it for many that do not understand very much about the Bible. See the distinction ?
So God willy-nilly rejects some of humankind?Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
I thought the bible told us that Jesus died, so that all can be saved. He did not say those that he choice could be saved
But how did they get collected? Who did it and how did they know? That's the question, and you haven't answered it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
And by the way, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and several other "excluded books" harmonize quite nicely with the books that were judged canonical. So your supposed criterion doesn't work. And even supposing it did, you still had to have SOMEBODY decide which ones harmonized and which ones didn't. Who was it, and how do you know they were right?
But what does it have to do with the subject at hand? Answer: nothing.Quote:
"I'm not sure what the names...etc."
As you well know the names of the books are often used by theologians to indicate AUTHORSHIP. For example Matthew wrote the book called Matthew, John wrote the book called John, etc.
There is no reason for God to do it this way, either. If you read a book like Isaiah or Ezekiel, you realize that many of the things God revealed to the prophets came in the form of visual images, not words, and the prophets wrote down what they saw as best they could. You really need to check out some basic books on Bible interpretation, because your idea was debunked centuries ago.Quote:
"the dictation idea is ridiculous...etc."
The differences in style you correctly point out do NOT eliminate the idea of dictation. Why is it not possible that God could use the styles of the various individuals AND YET express EXACTLY the words HE wanted them to say ? There is no reason that such a thing would be impossible for God.
This is another dodge. You said that a person had to have the entire Bible to be saved. Now you're changing your tune. I'm asking you to back up your own words with something tangible, and I'm still waiting for you to do so.Quote:
"So what ? Your point was...etc."
The point of HAVING access to the completed Bible is that we are to make use of it, and to CONTINUE TO STUDY PARTICULARLY THOSE PARTS THAT ARE NOT YET UNDERSTOOD BY US. And there is NO WAY that you can honestly tell ME that you currently understand ALL OF IT. NO WAY !!!
That makes as much sense as the average political speech. You said the entire Bible is required for salvation. Fr. Chuck and others pointed out that countless people have been saved without it, many because it hadn't been written yet. The thief on the cross was saved before Jesus even died. Now you want to make some kind of distinction between understanding and achieving, and you're just going in circles. And if it's all God and nothing of man, then nobody can really "achieve" salvation anyway, so your distinction is between nothing and... nothing. If the whole Bible is necessary for salvation, then it is. But if it isn't, then it isn't. I don't think you really have a clue what you're actually trying to say. Perhaps a bit more of a teachable spirit is in order.Quote:
"You said several times...etc."
I still maintain that it is necessary to look at everything in the whole Bible to come to a proper understanding of God's plan of salavation. But... understanding salvation is NOT THE SAME AS ACHIEVING SALVATION. I would NEVER make such a statement. We CAN UNDERSTAND, but that is mere KNOWLEDGE. God Himself is still in charge of actually saving ANYONE. So, therefore understanding His plan, while important and necessary for those who claim to follow the Bible PARTICULARLY, it still does not GET US SAVED. God Himself MUST do that. And He has done it for many that do not understand very much about the Bible. See the distinction ?
Quoting Wondergirl:
"So God willy-nilly rejects...etc."
Not at all ! God is able to accept or to reject ONLY ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LAW.
Those who are rejected SIMPLY HAVE NOT HAD THEIR SINS PAYED FOR. Which is a fact you do not accept as true. Therefore you cannot see the "LEGALITY" of God's choices.
You are making a very simple concept extremely complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
See post number 33 by WG, citing several verses that say in so many words that Jesus died for EVERYBODY, which means he "payed" for everyone's sins. So you're the one not seeing what the Bible actually says.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
Dwashbur, I'm familiar with the Bible verses that you refer to. God wrote them deliberately that way to make it possible to interpret them that way IF one does not follow the rule of VERY CAREFULLY LOOKING AT ALL THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT THAT SUBJECT.
And I further am aware that I am NOT the only one who understands the question in that way. Though on this particular forum, if anybody DOES DARE to think or believe differently than the CONSENSUS, they will very quickly be made to feel very frustrated and perhaps want to give up sharing knowledge with such stubborn and closed minded people as yourself.
I have, for years and years -- since I was about four years old. You (and some others) have a secret understanding?Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
So the "consensus" is wrong, and you are correct?Quote:
if anybody DOES DARE to think or believe differently than the CONSENSUS
So, let me get this straight. All those people who didn't have ALL of the Bible didn't have a snowball's chance of getting statements like those correct because God was trying to fool them? Your statement doesn't make any sense. God, by direct word for word dictation, made deliberately misleading statements? So your God is a borderline liar, based on what you just said. Is that really where you want to end up?Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
And using a bunch of capitals and underlines and all that stuff doesn't help your case. It just makes you look childish.
If you really spent any time on this forum, you'd realize that there is no "consensus" about much of anything. That's one of the fun things about it, as long as you're willing to consider other people's points of view. I find it laughable that you call me "closed minded," when all I have said is "there are other points of view, and yours has holes in it" while you are pounding the pulpit and shouting and underlining to insist that there is one, and only one, point of view, and yours is right and anybody who doesn't agree with you probably isn't saved. So we can add hypocrisy to everything else, because that is the definition of "closed minded."Quote:
And I further am aware that I am NOT the only one who understands the question in that way. Though on this particular forum, if anybody DOES DARE to think or believe differently than the CONSENSUS, they will very quickly be made to feel very frustrated and perhaps want to give up sharing knowledge with such stubborn and closed minded people as yourself.
I have suggested that you need a more teachable spirit, and I will suggest it again. There are lots of people here who have a lot more experience and knowledge of the Bible and Christianity than you have; I've been reading the Bible in its original languages for over 40 years, and we have ministers, scholars, informed lay people, and a huge spectrum of viewpoints and insights. Instead of ridiculing them all and insisting that yours is the only view, why don't you try exploring some of those viewpoints and insights and see what you can learn?
Quoting dwashbur:
"So let me get this straight....etc."
You do have it PARTLY correct. God wasn't trying to fool them (and us) in the same sense that a human being would try to fool somebody. Because God is NOT human at all. And He CANNOT lie. But... HE CAN and HE DOES CONCEAL truth IN HIS WORD. And YES by word for word dictation HE HAS made deliberately misleading statements. That is His privilege. One of the purposes of these misleading statements is that the information relating to the end of time and to judgment could NOT be found out by human effort UNTIL God made that knowledge available (in our time).
In case you're interested, this "case" as you call it is not mine at all. But by using capitals and underlines it helps me to express the EMPHASIS I think is required to make my points. If you consider that childish, so be it. Perhaps what is required of us by God is a child-like approach to trusting the complete accuracy of His word in the original languages and in its ENTIRETY. I refer to the original King James version.
Headstrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
WOW! According to the scriptures Jesus is the last Adam, he came and died for the entire world and WHOSOEVER will may come. God rejects no one... WHOSOEVER wants to call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED... hello? The message is a very simple thing on PURPOSE! Is the Bible simple... no WAY. It takes the Holy Spirit to understand the Word. There is so much in the Bible I suppose we will be learning new things forever about it. But the Gospel is simple... WhoSOEVER will may come. Nothing tricky ricky about that.
Incidentally, Ephesians was written directly to the church, or directly to Christians who are already saved. Paul is speaking to the church about our POSITION in Christ, our walk and then spirtual warfare... is isn't a book about HOW to get saved.
I'm really confused about who you think can be saved.. and exactly who you think Jesus died for. You keep talking about reading the entire bible. I'm all for that. But when you DO, learn to rightly divide it like Paul taught. Who is it written directly to, when was written, why it was written and how it applies to you. Otherwise it causes confusion and error in doctrine. Also never mix law with grace. I'm sure my advice will go over like a led balloon but what the heck... I will give it a whirl anyway.
One last thought, God is a JUST God. If he didn't send Jesus to die for ALL of mankind then he doesn't sound too just to me. When the people he DIDN'T die for stand before the Great White Throne and the Lord judges them... what will they say? It is your fault God, Jesus didn't die for my sins.. he didn't pay for me. It makes no sense headstrong.
Any way you slice it, this makes him a liar. The supposedly concealed things are most often presented in visual metaphoric images. That's something very different than what you're claiming for those verses. If you're going to compare things, compare apples to apples, not apples to rabbits. The verses in question are very plain and very clear. They are simple, declarative sentences that state a truth. If they are "deliberatly [sic] misleading" then your God is a liar. There's no way around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
The "original King James version," eh? Would it interest you to know that the King James version you claim as the "original" is actually a 1789 revision of the original 1611 text, made primarily by Mr. Webster of dictionary fame? You're not using the "original KJ, you're using a revision made over 150 years after the "original." And the " And the " King James itself was not a translation, but a revision of two earlier English versions, the Great Bible and the Geneva Bible. The list of revision goes on and on, until we finally get back to the actual original, the Greek text of the New Testament and the Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the Old Testament. There's nothing original at all about the King James.Quote:
In case you're interested, this "case" as you call it is not mine at all. But by using capitals and underlines it helps me to express the EMPHASIS I think is required to make my points. If you consider that childish, so be it. Perhaps what is required of us by God is a child-like approach to trusting the complete accuracy of His word in the original languages and in its ENTIRETY. I refer to the original King James version.
And yes, the shouting etc. makes you look childish. If you can't show your emphasis without it, then you need a better command of the English language. Your appeal to "child-like approach" King James itself was not a translation, but a revision of two earlier English versions, the Great Bible and the Geneva Bible. The list of revision goes on and on, until we finally get back to the actual original, the Greek text of the New Testament and the Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the Old Testament. There's nothing original at all about the King James.
And yes, the shouting etc. makes you look childish. If you can't show your emphasis without it, then you need a better command of the English language. Your appeal to "it's okay to remain ignorant." The Bible is firmly against that, and I think you know it. All this is nothing but a cop-out. The sooner you recognize that, the sooner you can start to make some real progress in your understanding of the Scriptures.
Agreed, the King James is by far not the best translation available. The use of old English is one issue, many terms need more modern translation to be clear. But if one wants to really study to "pick apart verses" you have to go back to the Greek, There is nothing special about the King James version that makes it better, if it was written today, one would challenge its translators as people challenge the ones today as having their own agenda. One may want to go back to the Latin verson ( much older translation) to come back to the English.
What I see as a real problem and I will say problem is that headstrong looks or wants legalism to be a issue, that nothing is easy, and simple, and that God is playing some funny game with humans for his enjoyment. He seems to have accepted every bad belief of various christian groups into one belief ( assuming he really believes this and is not merely being trollish for his enjoyment) From the law, to predestined to works, every blockade to salvation is given by him. Which of course leads to the issue, that one can not be saved if you feel that it is all for things you do,
Headstrong,
I'm not picking on you... just curious and trying to understand what you believe. Do you consider yourself saved? Why or why not.
From what I've gleaned from his posts, he believes he is saved, but has suggested that few, including us ("the consensus"), are (yet we think we are).Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG-
Gotcha. Thanks!
Headstrong - according to your understanding of the King James version of the Bible can you tell me what I must do to be saved.
Hey classyT,
I tried to send you a PM and got a message that you're not receiving them any more. Que pasa, amiga??
Dave,
I fixed it... :). I have no clue why it was that way.
Quoting classyT:
Headstrong - according to your understanding of the King James version of the Bible can you tell me what I must do to be saved.
The simple answer is that actually we CAN do nothing to guarantee our own salvation.
For further clarification and supporting details the whole business becomes somewhat more complex. But in a nutshell what I have stated above is IT. That fact however does NOT absolve the candidate from doing his best to be as obedient as possible to all of God's commandments. God's commandments are given to the whole world so that mankind in general can have a reasonably happy life while on planet Earth. As I see it, morality and salvation are two entirely different issues. People are commanded to live morally whether God has elected to save them or not.
Thus, you believe man does not have free will.
If God chooses those who will be saved, what difference does it make for man to believe? Why preach the gospel?
Wondergirl:
Man has free will in the sense that we can choose the religion we prefer, and we can choose whom to marry, and a whole host of other choices we can make. But none of those choices can help us to get saved.
The issue of preaching the gospel is simply a matter of obedience to God's command. "Go ye therefore..."
Do you believe in total immersion baptism?
Do you believe that God planned the Fall into sin so there would be something to save His creatures from?
Do you believe that grace is irresistible for those God wants to save? In other words, they cannot say no and fall away at any time?
Now we're getting a little more complicated. But that's OK.
As far as I'm concerned one kind of water baptism ceremony is as good as any other kind of baptism ceremony. They are all OBSOLETE. Though we can LEARN something from water baptism because after all God did institute it for a purpose. That was a SIGN to demonstrate "See how water can wash the skin clean of dirt? In a similar way God Himself must wash away sins from our innermost being (our souls)IF we are to be saved."
Do you believe that God planned the Fall into sin so there would be something to save His creatures from?
The simplest answer I can give is... I don't know. But it is an interesting thought, isn't it ? After all God very well did know what would happen. And He had made preparation for it. And now that I think about it... yes. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents a "tesing program" to see whether humanity would continue to obey God. Clearly they (we) failed the test. Hence the salvation program was ready to begin its work during the whole history of mankind on Earth. How's that ?
The subject of Irresistible Grace
Clearly if the choice of whom to save is entirely God's own, then it must follow that those who are chosen have no alternative but to become saved and to never fall away. But all of that does not mean that we others can observe the inner workings of the details of that in another person's life. We would like to believe that those people who seem most moral and most up-standing are surely God's candidates for salvation. But as the Bible gives several examples, that is not necessarily so. For example the thief on the cross next to Jesus was an unrepentant criminal until just before he died. Shortly before his death Jesus accepted him into His kingdom. Another example was David's great sin of adultery with Bathsheba, and the murder of her husband. Horrific sins ! Yet David was a child of God. When He did repent his contrition was most eloquent and sincere. See Psalm 51.
So, everyone is subject to God's wrath, but He's chosen certain ones to be merciful to. In other words, He saves some and damns others.
How does He decide whom to save?
John 20:31Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life.
Note the recurring word "know." The Bible records what it does so that we can know that we are saved, that we have eternal life, and all the rest. Paul talks again and again about assurance of our salvation. The Bible says we can know. You say we can't. I'll go with the Bible, thank you.
Quoting Wondergirl:
How does He decide whom to save?
As can be seen the whole matter of salvation is not as simple as we might like it to be. Part of this question I have already addressed in other posts. But it's extremely important so I don't mind at all repeating some of it here. God does absolutely everything perfectly and according to His own law. That means first of all sins cannot just be ignored. There is a penalty prescribed by God's own law for sin. That penalty is DEATH. That means complete death, permanently, of the body and soul (the complete personality) of the offending humans. So whatever particular individual was chosen to be saved MUST have someone make the payment of the death penalty, as prescribed by God's own law, in his stead.
Also God had already anticipated the sins of those He chose, and NAMED, before He created them, before they even committed their first sins. He had named them, and made payment for their sins all before the very first day of creation.
As to what criteria God may have used to make His selections of particular individuals, the details are not given in the Bible. But the Bible does indicate that there is a definite number of people that are predestined to be saved. And it is NOT the entire population of the world that ever lived. The most probable number is found in Revelation 9:16. There are also some anecdotal Bible references to the "lot." God used the casting of lots to distribute parcels of the land of Canaan to the various tribes of Israel. For example Numbers 26:55, Numbers 33:54, Deuteronomy 32:9, and others. This indicates to me that the way God chose the persons to be saved was done deliberately in such a way as to APPEAR to us as RANDOM. Though God says in Acts 10:34 that He is not a "respecter of persons." And God also describes His SOVEREIGNTY over all games of chance, particularly the "lot." (Proverbs 16:33) In very simple terms that means God is not telling us the details of exactly how He determined which particular individuals were selected for salvation.
Headstrong,Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
So then how can we have a relationship with him if we aren't his? Why did the Lord Jesus come show us how to love, how to have a relationship with God the Father, why was the veil torn into, why give us access to the throne of grace so we can bodly come whenever we want? Who then does the Lord say he will never leave nor forsake? Why bother saying such a thing, if we don't even know if we are his?
Basically you are stating you don't even know if you are saved. What joy is there for you? You seem to like the Old Testament a lot. Interesing don't you think that Noah and his family weren't given a really high bar to hang onto during the flood. Hoping they didn't fall from it but never really knowing if they would make it through. No, instead they were secure in a ARK ( picture of Lord Jesus), no one was coming in or going out when God shut that door. They were safe and secure and THEY KNEW IT. ;)
What a awful fearful life, I feel so sorry for you and who ever twisted Gods love in your heart and mind.
Jesus came to show the heart of our Father to mankind. His heart full of love and compassion. He would look out at the masses of people and see them as lost, scattered, skinned alive. His heart was full of love. He fed them spiritually, physcially and healed ALL lthat asked. And Headstrong is saying... we can't know that he KNOWS us, we can't know we are HIS. Very, very sad indeed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Taking in ALL of the Old Testament and New Testament in the King James version, I'd say he is very wrong.
He has stated that he believes HE is saved. I am still wondering how he know HE is, but we can't know for sure that WE are, that our salvation may be in grave doubt because God did not choose us.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
What secret knowledge does he have? Does he understand the Bible in some way more clearly than we do?
WG,
Well you ,Dave and Fr_chuck.. I could understand! But ME! Ha ha ha... :)
He won't answer my question. I need to know how I can be saved according to him and know it, like him and he gives me nuttin. He's not doing very good on following ALL the Bible commands.
Quoting Wondergirl:
"He has stated that he believes HE is saved."
WRONG!! I NEVER stated any such a thing!! The fact is that I simply don't know for sure. Sometimes I feel, yes it's possible, because I do have a desire to obey God. At other times I say to myself, NAH ! Why on Earth would God save me ? I still enjoy sin from time to time. So the answer is I JUST DON'T KNOW.
But... I'd much rather feel the way that I do than to delude myself into thinking I am saved when I really have no definitive proof.
And furthermore, I never stated that it's impossible to know. CLEARLY the scriptures do say that it is possible to know. I would not deliberately contradict the Bible. Though to know whether any PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL is or is not saved is not my place to say. Only God sees the heart of the person. We cannot.
So how is it possible to know? You're saying we cannot know in this life, that we wander the earth full of fear and confusion and maybe even doubt?
Why don't YOU know?
Funny. Salvation is the one thing I am SURE of in this life!Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
No wonder you don't know, if you are counting on obedience to save you. Obedience is not what saves.Quote:
Sometimes I feel, yes it's possible, because I do have a desire to obey God.
Because he loves you? Because your name has always been written on the palm of His hand (Isaiah 49:16).Quote:
Why on Earth would God save me ?
We all do. That's the wonder and beauty of God's love and grace, that He gives us the gift of salvation knowing we cannot be perfect in this life.Quote:
I still enjoy sin from time to time.
The definite proof is in the message of the Gospel.Quote:
But... I'd much rather feel the way that I do than to delude myself into thinking I am saved when I really have no definitive proof.
Quoting classyT:
I know I am saved because the bible says clearly:
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Romans 10:9
I have confessed and I do believe and therefore I am saved!
Ephesians 1:13 says I was sealed with the Holy spirit when I believed the gospel check it out... In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
Clearly you already believe you're saved. So why on Earth would you even care to know what I think ? Obviously from everything I've said it should be clear that your version of salvation is a complete misunderstanding of scripture.
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