Ask Me Help Desk - Is there such thing as hell?

[QUOTE=Moparbyfar;2453516]

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Excellent point WGirl! There are many scriptures that back this belief up, Isaiah 45:18; Eccl 1:4; Psalm 37:29 to name a few, so why doubt God's purpose for this beautiful home of ours?

If a landowner rents his brand new home to thugs who then trash it and turn it into a hovel, what will he do? Burn the building down? No he will evict the tenants and find more responsible ones to care for it properly. The same with God and the earth. Doesn't this show God to be truly loving as it brings out in 1 John 4:8? So how could a God so loving and merciful punish a mere human for all eternity? That idea is in complete contrast with the words in Psalm 104:9 "He will not for all time keep finding fault, Neither will he to time indefinite keep resentful."

Dwashbur, I'm busy brushing the dust off my feet. :p

;) I don't think any of us here dispute the idea of a final resurrection and eternal life on the new earth described in Revelation 22. The question is about those who don't end up there.

Those who end up in hell do so because they reject God. God doesn't punish them, they basically choose their fate. Once again, the torment and all that is a human attempt to describe the indescribable: a place totally devoid of God's presence. It has nothing to do with whether God is loving or not, it has to do with people's choice to reject him and spend eternity without him.

[QUOTE=dwashbur;2454090]

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Those who end up in hell do so because they reject God. God doesn't punish them, they basically choose their fate....... It has nothing to do with whether God is loving or not, it has to do with people's choice to reject him and spend eternity without him.

Dwashbur (and others)--

God creates you. God, being all-knowing, knows exactly that you will reject God. God knows this from all eternity. You cannot change what God has known from all eternity. You wind up in hell. Why did God create you in the first place if he, in his infinite all-knowingness, knew that you would wind up in hell?

If this is the way it works, how could this be a loving God?

[QUOTE=Athos;2454402]

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Dwashbur (and others)--

God creates you. God, being all-knowing, knows exactly that you will reject God. God knows this from all eternity. You cannot change what God has known from all eternity. You wind up in hell. Why did God create you in the first place if he, in his infinite all-knowingness, knew that you would wind up in hell?

If this is the way it works, how could this be a loving God?

Whether God knows what will happen or not, the choice is still yours. Nobody twists your arm or puts a gun to your head. How could God be a loving God if he didn't give you a choice? That's a better question. It's all in your definition of "loving," and yours is lacking in this respect.

[QUOTE=Athos;2454402]

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Dwashbur (and others)--

God creates you. God, being all-knowing, knows exactly that you will reject God. God knows this from all eternity. You cannot change what God has known from all eternity. You wind up in hell. Why did God create you in the first place if he, in his infinite all-knowingness, knew that you would wind up in hell?

If this is the way it works, how could this be a loving God?

Hi Athos,

From your statement it get the impression that you are a fatalist. You don't think there is such a thing as free will. This is not a criticism>just curious.

Regards

Tut

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Originally Posted by Athos

God creates you. God, being all-knowing, knows exactly that you will reject God. God knows this from all eternity. You cannot change what God has known from all eternity. You wind up in hell. Why did God create you in the first place if he, in his infinite all-knowingness, knew that you would wind up in hell?

If this is the way it works, how could this be a loving God?

Your existence is the product of choices made by your parents. God has not predestined any of us to be born. He is not responsible for creating anyone to be sent to hell. People have absolute free will within the confines of their personal ability and thus choose to reject Him (i.e. go to hell) rather than submit their lives to Him.

If what you say is true, why would God bother with this intermediate stage in the first place? Why not just bypass this life, create people, and put them in heaven?

[QUOTE=dwashbur;2454473]

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Originally Posted by Athos

Whether God knows what will happen or not, the choice is still yours. Nobody twists your arm or puts a gun to your head. How could God be a loving God if he didn't give you a choice? That's a better question. It's all in your definition of "loving," and yours is lacking in this respect.

You say "whether God knows what will happen or not", but that's the point, is it not? God DOES know, at least if he is posited as an all-knowing God. There's simply no getting around it - an omnipotent God who creates a creation that he knows will go to hell can hardly be called a loving God.

You say my definition of "loving" is lacking. Easy to say, but I note you didn't support your comment.

To Tut -- No, I'm not a fatalist. I'm merely pointing out an obvious contradiction in the notion of God if he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. Free will, in this definition of God, does not exist. I define "loving", at least in part, as NOT sending someone to hell. The logic is inescapable.

To Wondergirl - Of course God has predestined us to our destination. Calvin understood this and came up with what I believe is the most horrendous understanding of God ever described. But, to give Calvin his due, he was logically consistent.

Theologians and philosophers from the beginning have grappled with this conundrum - to no avail, I might add.

It really is a simple logical exercise. To deny it is a reflection of what one wants to believe, and I understand that.

Blaise Pascal, among many others, confronted with the logical difficulties of "God", concluded that a "leap of faith" was necessary. As did Kierkegaard. And so many others over the years.

When anyone tries to fit God into their notions of rationality, they always wind up against a wall of confusion.

Better to just say "I don't know", go on believing, and leave it at that. Trying to fit God into a place where he cannot be "fitted" does nothing but allow others to deconstruct a false proposition.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Of course God has predestined us to our destination.

When anyone tries to fit God into their notions of rationality, they always wind up against a wall of confusion.

I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I rest my case.

Your "case" was that God has NOT predestined us. Exactly what case are you resting?

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Originally Posted by Athos

Your "case" was that God has NOT predestined us. Exactly what case are you resting?

Stuffing God into a box.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Stuffing God into a box.

Ok. Ergo, you agree with my original post. Good for you.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Ok. Ergo, you agree with my original post. Good for you.

Ergo. No, I don't.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Ergo. No, I don't.

Then, what is your case?

Do you still believe in hell?

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Originally Posted by Athos

Do you still believe in hell?

What definition do you use?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What definition do you use?

Hell as in the Bible - a place of eternal punishment.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Hell as in the Bible - a place of eternal punishment.

Fire and brimstone too? Weeping and gnashing of teeth? (Those are also in the Bible)

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Fire and brimstone too? Weeping and gnashing of teeth? (Those are also in the Bible)

I see you won't answer. You'll just keep quibbling and post silly responses. I'll look in tomorrow to see if you've answered.

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Originally Posted by Athos

I see you won't answer. You'll just keep quibbling and post silly responses. I'll look in tomorrow to see if you've answered.

Hell is where God is not.

"Eternal punishment" is a very broad term. Quibble? Silly responses? No, I'm trying to pin you down as to what you mean by that. Do you mean something like what's depicted in The Last Judgement (Sistine Chapel)? You don't like the "eternal" part? The "punishment" part? I'm guessing the former.

It could be anything of punishment, we are often given examples. For Excon perhaps he would be stuck at a BUSH family reunion. But seriously, yes, the bible gives us examples of it, plus the knowledge that it will be a place of great suffering.
So fire or now fire, a punishment is still just that.

[QUOTE=Athos;2454592]

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

To Tut -- No, I'm not a fatalist. I'm merely pointing out an obvious contradiction in the notion of God if he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. Free will, in this definition of God, does not exist. I define "loving", at least in part, as NOT sending someone to hell. The logic is inescapable.

Hi Athos,

What you say above is actually correct.

God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all- loving and there is evil in the world. You can have any three of these propositions together but you cannot have all four together. Therefore, in that respect you are correct.

However, there are some counter arguments.

Regards

Tut

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What will God do with the evicted tenants?

Psalm 9:17
Romans 6:23
Psalm 37:9,10
Psalm 145:20
Zephaniah 1:17,18

Complete destruction, annihilation for the wicked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Psalm 9:17
Romans 6:23
Psalm 37:9,10
Psalm 145:20
Zephaniah 1:17,18

Complete destruction, annihilation for the wicked.

That's not what Romans says.

Ah quite right Wgirl, I was thinking of 2 things at once when I posted that. It does say that "the wages sin pays is death" - not punishment in hell. That was my line of thought for that scripture. If one was to be punished forever in hell, they would be alive in some form which contradicts Romans 6:23.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Ah quite right Wgirl, I was thinking of 2 things at once when I posted that. It does say that "the wages sin pays is death" - not punishment in hell. That was my line of thought for that scripture. If one was to be punished forever in hell, they would be alive in some form which contradicts Romans 6:23.

The other verses are from the O.T. We all know that the Jews believe the grave is the last stop. Only the first reference in Psalms says that. The other verses refer to other things, but not eternal annihilation.

2 Tim 3:16,17 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." That includes the OT which is not merely a story about the Jews but tells so much more - God's purpose for mankind and the earth, prophesies that would later be fulfilled even in the NT, ones yet to be fulfilled, God's personality, lessons for us to learn from. It will help right hearted ones to compare scriptures from the OT with the NT in order to see the whole picture.

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Originally Posted by leslye09

Is there such thing as hell?

Yes.

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i was raised as a catholic

The Catholic Church teaches the existence of hell:
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1035

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but i think maybe religions just use that to scare people to keep bringing them back to church.
unfortunately that's what priest feed of, the people!

Sounds as though you are either having or have had a crisis of faith.

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i was also told that hell is just a state in your should that doesn't let you see God!

By whom and whom do you believe?

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but what about the eternal fire?

The eternal fire is real.

It doesn't matter if the Catholic Church or ANY so called "church" preaches Hell or doesn't. The BIBLE teaches there is INDEED a hell.

As a born again Christian woman, my ONLY authority is the written word of God. IN that written word called the BIBLE... there is a heaven and there is a hell. GOD is not a man that he should lie.

[QUOTE=classyT;2459065]It doesn't matter if the Catholic Church or ANY so called "church" preaches Hell or doesn't. The BIBLE teaches there is INDEED a hell.

Hi classyT,

Glad you could join in. What you say above doesn't seem to be in dispute with many of us. The problem seems to be.'Yes, there is a hell but where is it located?' If hell were a physical place then there is every chance in the future of marking it on some type of map.

If it is, 'a state of being' ( as suggested by a famous Pope) then it doesn't have a physical location. It doesn't make it less 'real'. It just means that it doesn't have a location.

Regards

Tut

Jesus gave a vivid description of Hell when He gave the account of the rich man who went there.

And,

Death is not extermination, it is separation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

2 Tim 3:16,17 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

No one is disputing that. But again, context is everything, and it's what you consistently ignore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Ecclesiastes 9:5 states "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."

If the wicked suffered literally in hell then this scripture would have no meaning. Also compare Psalms 146:3,4 which tells us that in the day one perishes, his thoughts do perish. Literal torment requires feeling, something that according to these scriptures we don't have when we die (the dead are conscious of nothing at all).

The gift of God is eternal life. I think God wouldn't give someone eternal life if they aren't going to heaven.

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Originally Posted by bidingmytime

The gift of God is eternal life. I think God wouldn't give someone eternal life if they aren't going to heaven.

God offers everyone eternal life, but some refuse it.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

God offers everyone eternal life, but some refuse it.

I thought that Lutherans believed in pre-destination? As I understand the logic, God pre-ordained from eternity those who went to heaven. To double up, I thought it included the belief whereby God also pre-ordained those who went to the “not-so-good-place”? So, how can you choose to accept or reject God’s offer of eternal life? This seems to contradict some of your previous statements.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I thought that Lutherans believed in pre-destination? As I understand the logic, God pre-ordained from eternity those who went to heaven. To double up, I thought it included the belief whereby God also pre-ordained those who went to the “not-so-good-place”? So, how can you choose to accept or reject God’s offer of eternal life? This seems to contradict some of your previous statements.

JoeT

It doesn't contradict any of my previous statements. (Please quote me if you find any.) Missouri-Synod Lutherans believe a person can reject God and salvation; they do not believe in predestination. I do not know what other Lutheran synods believe.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It doesn't contradict any of my previous statements. (Please quote me if you find any.) Missouri-Synod Lutherans believe a person can reject God and salvation; they do not believe in predestination. I do not know what other Lutheran synods believe.

Predestination is a lousy term. I prefer to say sovereignty; God is sovereign over his creation and nothing happens without at least his permission. Free-will is also a lousy term; I prefer to speak in terms of responsibility. Humans are responsible and answerable for their actions, including rejecting God and his way of reconciliation.

Somewhere off in the distance those two ideas reconcile. I don't pretend to understand it and don't even try. The reconciling of the two notions happens somewhere in the infinite mind of God, so if he explained it to me, I wouldn't be able to grasp it because I'm finite.

The only predestination that I can see in the Bible is this:
Every one who accepts Jesus as Savior and Lord is PREDESTINED to be conformed to His image. That is, at some point, every believer will become like Jesus in character.

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Originally Posted by classyT

It doesn't matter if the Catholic Church

To you. It matters quite a bit to me.

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or ANY so called "church" preaches Hell or doesn't.

This person says she is a former Catholic so I was informing her the Catholic teaching.

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The BIBLE teaches there is INDEED a hell.

There is no denying that.

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As a born again Christian woman, my ONLY authority is the written word of God.

Even though the written word of God gives you many authorities:
Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

So, in saying that you accept only the Bible and no other authority, you are admitting that you don't even obey the Bible.

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IN that written word called the BIBLE... there is a heaven and there is a hell. GOD is not a man that he should lie.

That is correct. And the Catholic Church teaches the Bible.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

That is correct. And the Catholic Church teaches the Bible.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Not wise to parry with DeMaria. He knows the Bible as well as anyone on these pages - better, in my opinion.

But, for those who are honestly trying to get a better understanding of the Catholic faith, De Maria is the one to read.

It is inconceivable to me that in 2010 people still believe the fairy tales of religion. It's 40 years now since a man was whacking a golf ball around on the moon and chasing it in a cart, and people still believe this religion tripe?

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Originally Posted by lobstertrap

It is inconceivable to me that in 2010 people still believe the fairy tales of religion. It's 40 years now since a man was whacking a golf ball around on the moon and chasing it in a cart, and people still believe this religion tripe?

Forty years since the moon golfing, and 50,000 years since mankind began to wonder about himself and his place in the universe. Surely golfing on the moon is not your ultimate answer.

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Originally Posted by lobstertrap

It is inconceivable to me that in 2010 people still believe the fairy tales of religion. It's 40 years now since a man was whacking a golf ball around on the moon and chasing it in a cart, and people still believe this religion tripe?

I believe, I wouldn't call my faith 'fairy tales' and many were martyred for more than tripe in a moon crater.

JoeT