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No, you're saying that red can be red or blue depending on one's interpretation. Once again, Jesus said he is the ONLY way. Either he is or he isn't; there's no middle ground, nothing that's "open for interpretation." What part of "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time" don't you understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
What don't you understand about I am NOT debating JESUS. I am SAYING religion is OPEN for discussion.
And yet the bible mentions other gods. Did the birth of jesus make those gods cease to exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.
Exodus 20:3, 5
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.. . Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.
Exodus 23:13
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Numbers 33:4
Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.
Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)
Joshua 24:2
They served other gods.
Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?
Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.
How many gods are there?
Edit:
You say, "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time." OK, then which is it? Either there is only one god, as stated in the bible, or there are many gods, as stated in the bible.
Damn it Hheath I have to spread the rep.
Hi Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I think what Aurora Bell is getting at when it comes to colour is that perception of colour is different to thinking about colour. When perceiving there is an additional element (subjective) which is not involved when thinking about colour.
It is sometimes argued that there is a clear difference between seeing a red tomato and thinking about a red tomato. There seems to be an extra subjective element in the case of seeing.
When it comes to seeing it is difficult to say that my red is the same as your red. The x and not x might not be a good analogy in this particular instance.
Regards
Tut
*yawn* Galatians 4:8. Isaiah 43:10. There are lots of things that are called "gods" by people in the Bible, but that doesn't make them actual deities. Elijah made this clear on Mount Carmel in 1 Kings 18. When Baal didn't answer he had a little fun: "where is he? Maybe he's asleep. Maybe he's on a trip. Maybe he's taking a crap. Call louder!" God makes fun of idols in Isaiah, where he talks about how a man cuts down a tree, uses part of it to burn and keep himself warm, and takes the rest and makes himself a "god" that he bows down to and prays to.Quote:
Originally Posted by hheath541
The Bible makes a lot more sense if you read the whole thing, not just the parts that you think support your notions.
Fine, then call it wavelength in the red spectrum. That kind of hair-splitting gets us nowhere, and seems like nothing more than a weak dodge at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
Hmmm D, I like how you skirted this one.
It's not anyone's place to judge another person. That is why it is so important to stop and evaluate yourself and by that I mean not just the people who are believers or non believers ,but who like me and you have different opinions.
Why do you have that opinion? Is there a hell? God Is there a heaven? I honestly know in my heart I would not be here today if it weren't for the grace of God.
Who in the world has not felt the goodness of God? You see his miracles when you look at your children or when you are at the lowest point in your life and he speaks in that still, small voice and it's so clear it is him you can almost reach out and touch his hand.
Hell is as real as the sun and the moon. Heaven will be more wonderful than anything you could ever imagine. There is one way to get to heaven, and one way to get to hell.
Unbelief is what will doom people to hell. Jesus says."my spirit will not always strive with man". By that he is saying, I will knock at the door of your heart... more than once and you may or may not ask me to dwell in your heart,
But if you you turn me away and keep saying I don't believe then one day I will not come back.
You can't be saved anytime you want too, the spirit of the Lord has to draw you and convict your heart, to let you know you are lost. God doesn't send anyone to hell. He gives them chance after chance.
He is a forgiving God and he weeps for the things, he sees going on in this world. It is his time now and I honestly believe we are nearing our heavenly home.
I didn't respond because it doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
OK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
Doing God's will is the way to heaven. If we don't study His word to learn what we must do, then how do we expect to get to heaven? God is a loving God. He does love us--all of us, but He expects us to love Him too. He says, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." How can we keep His commandments if we don't read His word to know what they are? Being a good person only, is not the way to heaven either "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."We are His children and He really loves us, we just need to show Him that we really love Him too.
I have made peace with Heaven, and I've made peace with MY God. I stand by my beliefs. Maybe they are wrong, but maybe you're wrong too. Will I point my finger at you? No. Never. Who am I to judge?
I have asked for forgiveness, and I have asked for my own personal salvation. I am not going to do or pray to something I don't believe in. I know some of you are going to take that as me not believing. That is not true. I have MUCH faith. I am not so naïve and ignorant to believe MY religion is the only one. I never once debated Jesus.
If you REALLY want to know what I think about Christianity, I think is is one of the MOST barbaric of all religions.
O.k have at me.
Actually it's not. The sun and moon are facts, hell is a belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitkat22
Sorry Bella, you weren't the one that repeatly said you were a sinner. I'm blamin my mistake on old age. Sorry girlie.. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
Quote:
Originally Posted by hheath541
I agree we are given free will and therfore the right to choose. When I asked the question do we get that CHOICE, I really meant to we get to pick another way to heaven if Jesus said otherwise?
Is God UNjust if he sends good, well intentioned people to Hell just because they chose a different path and reject what the Bible teaches about Jesus. For example : That he ( Jesus) actually became SIN for us on the cross and then God punished HIM instead of us and we now need to accept that by faith. Otherwise, according the bible, we die in our sins and then we are unfit to be in heaven, so we are sent to a devils hell. Is that FAIR?. Is God just or unjust for giving us a one way sign to heaven?
I guess those looking to get into heaven need to decide if they have to believe in jesus in order to get there.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I'm not looking to get into heaven. It's never really been something I wanted. I still remember the looks on everyone's faces when I told them I thought heaven sounded like a very boring place full of stuck up people and I wasn't sure if I wanted to go there. I was about 12-14 years old and it was in the middle of a lesson at church.
OK... you are in big trouble... I'm beating you up for that. Lol lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
Well, don't blame the barbaric stuff on Christianity. Blame it on stupid, evil people who kill in the name of Christ or Christianity. There is NOTHING in what Christ taught that was barbaric. Quite the opposite... Love your neighbor as yourself. Don't get more peaceful than that.
People pervert things for their OWN agendas... been happening for centuries.
LOL when I was really young... younger than 12 or 14. I thought heaven was going to be me sitting on a couch with Jesus in the middle a bowl of fruit on a coffee table in front.. and the rest of my family sitting there with me. In my minds eye... we all looked thrilled as a peanut. BORED me just thinking about it. I don't know where that came from either... I was really little 5 maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by hheath541
You know hheath I think, could be wrong, that you are equating a heaven with a boring church service and holier than thou people running around. I wouldn't want to go there either, I already LEFT a church like that. :D
When I read what little is really mentioned concerning "heaven"... it is more than a place. And it sure isn't about "people". It is all about the Lord Jesus. When the thief on the cross looked at the Lord and ask him to remember him when he ( Jesus) came into his kingdom... Jesus replied something like this ,today you will be with ME in paradise.
I think it will be a literal place but more importantly is is going to be about being with HIM. The problem is... most Christians don't really understand HIM. ( not that I do either ) but GOD is LOVE, Light, HOlY... all those things in perfection... it must be awesome is all I know. The Apostle Paul actually was caught up in the third heaven and he put it this way... he saw "unspeakable things." I don't think he had the words to even articulate what he saw. He was torn, he wanted to stay on this earth to get people to understand the gospel of Christ and yet he wanted to be with the Lord. Paul said to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. Paul who got a glimpse of heaven was much more interested in the LORD of heaven. So.. I don't focus on heaven too much. My mind is finite and honestly can't comprehend the actual place.
( although I DO like to think about going through the buffet line at din din time and not gaining a pound... sorry off topic.. :D)
Whatever Hell is like, it will be the opposite, there will still be people, yes even stuck up ones... because they take their sin with them. BUT it will be absent of God. Actually it sounds horrifying... IF you believe the Bible... but if you don't... does it change anything?
The vision of heaven I always got was more idealistic. I was taught that heaven is like earth, only more real. To me, that translated into a big outdoor place with trees and grass and open sky. Everything was just a little too bright and the colors were a little too vibrant. There were people everywhere, wearing light colored clothes. They were either just walking around enjoying the scenery or talking quietly in groups.
There were no arguments or differences in opinion. There were no child running around (I was taught that everyone in heaven is without blemish and in the prime of health, which generally meant in their 20's). Everyone was perfectly happy and loved everyone else.
You know what? I still think it's a boring place.
Hheath,
LOL well, when you think it is going to be a scene from the Stepford Wives.. can't sayzzz I blame you. Lol :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Seeing our loved ones who have left us is just part of it. Heaven is a reward for God's children. Imagine never having to part from those you love again. Never being sick and seeing Jesus every single day. I think I would like to ask questions about why this happened or why that happened, but in Heaven I don't believe I'll want too.
A minister who thinks it's wrong to preach about hell.. needs to re examine himself.
He should be worried about helping people avoid Hell rather than worry about offending someone.
Hell will not be boring... people who are there don't want anyone else to come to be with them. Most people think (if they believe in Hell) that you just die immediately consumed by the fire. That isn't true. The Bible says torment is eternal and where the worm die th not.
The rich man asked Lazarus( the tramp on the street) to go to his brothers and tell them of that awful place, to tell them not to come there. And he begged for one drop of water to cool his tongue. There will be eternal screaming and gnashing of teeth. The screams of agony will be worse than anything you could ever imagine.
Think about what John said about heaven... "eyes have never seen nor ears have never heard what our father has in store for us". No one can convince me there is no Heaven or Hell. I can't convince anyone who believes otherwise that there is. I won't try, because if God doesn't give me the words in my heart to write here to those who don't believe I would end up saying something to hurt someone.
I will pray for peoples hearts to be opened to the truth and I do love all of you.
[QUOTE=Kitkat22;2357952 if God doesn't give me the words in my heart to write here to those who don't believe I would end up saying something to hurt someone.
I will pray for your heart to be opened to the truth and I do love all of you.[/QUOTE]
Kit,
I don't want to hurt anyone either. I started the thread to see what people believe and or what they base that belief on. If there is a hell, who is going? Whether someone has chosen to post an answer to my question or not, I just wanted to discuss it. I have NO intention of hurting anyone or proving anything. I think you had it correct earlier when you said it was all about that 5 letter word ( LOL I counted it on my fingers first... ) FAITH. Perhaps I should have put this in the religion discussion board.
No I think it's a wonderful thread. Who knows what may happen because of this thread. You are a blessing to me and I am so glad you started this thread. Someone may read this and it may change their life. Classy T there is a reason for this... I love it.. it makes me anxious to go to heaven and I thank you for putting that gladness back in my heart...Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Those things you were taught are someone's opinion, nothing more. The simple truth is, nobody knows what it looks like or what it's going to be like (or is like, in the case of people like my sister who just recently went there). It's described as pleasant, as a place where people are happy. Everything else we have is metaphor and symbol, because our finite minds can't grasp the infinite. Me, I'm looking forward to exploring the universe, since I'm also an amateur astronomer. I've already told God that before he takes me there, I want to stop by Mars and check it out for a few days or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by hheath541
There was a thread on here not long ago asking what we think heaven looks like. I suggested that whatever is the most pleasant thing conceivable to you, it has an equal chance of being right. I could also go for a place where I can scuba dive for hours on end without running out of air or risking the bends.
Have you ever seen the claymation movie about Mark Twain? The two different heavens depicted there seem to sum up some people's opinion versus what the reality is likely to be. The one has a harp, a hymnbook and wings and dull music, where the other one is a nonstop party. I know which one I'll take!
I did not read any of the other answers but here goes.
Who do I think will go to hell? Can not say, it is not my place or my judgment to make.
Now the definitions of hell has different meanings for different people.
Even the word hell itself the meaning has changed over many years.
The original prayer that I used to pray in church. The part that said Jesus died, descended into the dead and rose in three days. That is today's version. Years ago it was worded Jesus descended into hell and rose in three days. Hell could be merely meaning death, or the grave...
As well. Hell another definition is that people create there own hell and there own separation from God. After there death. They recreate and relive their worst nightmare.
There is books that are included in the Catholic version of the bible that are not excepted by all denominations which talk about the seven days after death for the righteous and seven days of the evil and what they see and the steps they take. It is pretty cool to read and makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper1976
Hi Joe... I know the Bible was written many, many centuries ago and I don't believe it has changed. There is a Hell, a lake of fire and it it is as real as you or I. The Bible doesn't change Jesus said , Yesterday, today and forever he never changes. The bible has been changed to fit the purpose of man. The King James Version is the one I read. Hell may be a myth to some people but I honestly believe there are people there today who if they could come back and tell you about how horrible it is , they would.
It is sad when people go along with any thing just to fit in and not offend any one. I think if you preach the word and people are offended at least they are listening and you have touched a nerve in their heart or they wouldn't respond. Thank you ClassyT for this thread. Thank God for people who will not be swayed by others who mock and laugh at us for our beliefs. This shows me the Bible is real and Satan is real and he knows he has just a short time to woo the ones who will spend eternity with him.
Thank You God for saving a wretch like me. You gave me hope when I was hopeless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
You are absolutely right. So would you say that part is open for interpretation? I mean after all who is the real sinner? Are all those 'barbaric s' going to Hell for killing for something they so whole heart-idly believed in? They really believed if they didn't kill in his name they were the sinners who wouold go to Hell.
Or are we going to pay the penance for not standing up for the man who saved our souls?
Hheath, ever hear that saying You Heaven is my Hell? That's something I really believe, I mean to spend eternity in someone Else's vision of heaven doesn't sound like much fun. I think Heaven is what you make it.
Heaven to me is a being at peace.
I mention it earlier, it's erroneous to say that hell is as real as you or I since hell is a belief and you and I are a fact that can be proven. Hell is a belief concept, in fact who says it is a lake of fire? It can be... if that is your belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitkat22
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I know what the Bible says and it has been around longer than any of us.
I don't think you or anyone would disagree with that. You have your beliefs and I have mine. You can't change mine and I can't change yours, so lets just agree to disagree. Nice to talk with you again.:)
Bella,
Anyone that murders in the name of Christ I would NOT own as a Christian. But only God knows the heart.
People have killed and slaughtered millions in the name of "religion". Not only christians and it is not right.
It is like the radical so called Christian bombing an abortion clinic. HELLLLLO! I'm not for abortion but for heaven sakes, the moron that bombed the clincs and kills the doctors and nurses were not acting on the behalf of the Lord Jesus... I promise you.
Believe it or not, Christianity isn't or shouldn't be a religion it is a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. If you have a real relationship with him, He will NEVER tell to go outside of what the Bible says.
I agree with what you said about heaven and peace.
Hold that thought... my son.just walked in the door starved. UGH. Save yourself... don't have bratty boys that you spoil rottten. :D
Man has been around on earth much longer than 2000 years. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitkat22
Are you saying that what I am saying is wrong Kitkat?
The bible I read is the Kings James version as well, but there are depending on what denomination you come from other books are excepted as well.
Anyway, Thank you NeedKarma for some well needed balance.
I am not going to sit here and judge people or say that certain people should be or are in hell. I am not God, and it is not up to me.
Well looks like does not matter what I say here. It will get twisted into something that is not.
I agree.. people have been killing for the sake of religion all through History. There are people who blow themselves up thinking their reward is waiting for them.
The Bible says. "the just suffer will suffer with the unjust". I see it happening everyday . I don't understand why innocent children are murdered and why there is war.
My one hope is this... when we get to heaven god will explain it all and he will wipe away our tears.
I suspect kitkat meant "us" as in those of us having this discussion, but your point is well taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Thanks for the insight Classy. Something I have been thinking about since you started this thread.
Yes I agree man has been around longer than 2000 years. Remember Adam and Eve and Moses and Daniel and David. They were here long before Jesus Christ was born. As I said I won't argue... I just don't need to do that anymore. I hope you know I wish you nothing but blessings, regardless to what you may think.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Ok guys if we are getting offended, than we need to take a step back and breath. This is an excellent thread and I would hate to see it turn the wrong way.
This is why I say religion is open for interpretation. People interpret things in their own way, they always will. Yes there are things written in back and white, but there is always a grey area.
What? Not having bratty boys that you spoil rotten or my thoughts on radical religion? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell
You are welcome... :)
A little bit of column A, a little bit of B ;)
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