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Originally Posted by dwashbur

...different things to different people, and one of the big problems is that a group may take a word or phrase out of historic Christian teaching, ... to fit their own ideas. Then when we're talking with them it sounds like they're saying the same thing we are. But the reality is that they mean something quite different.

One of the many reasons language is my bag...

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Don't all Christian denominations do that very thing? "Historic" Christian teaching? Whose history?

Are you suggesting Mormons are not Christian? Just curious.

dwashbur,
Yes redefine the meaning of some words causes lots of confusion and trouble.
It happens in a lot of different beliefs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

When most Mormons say they believe Jesus is divine, they mean it in the same sense that they - at least the men - expect to become gods someday themselves. "Divine" means different things to different people, and one of the big problems is that a group may take a word or phrase out of historic Christian teaching, like "divine" and redefine it to fit their own ideas. Then when we're talking with them it sounds like they're saying the same thing we are. But the reality is that they mean something quite different.

One of the many reasons language is my bag...

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That particular belief (of becoming gods) has been re-explained, debated, and redefined so many times, just within the mormon church, that it's pretty much impossible to know which version and interpretation to believe. The way I always understood it, is that they don't expect to BECOME gods, just to spend eternity in the PRESENCE of god.

I know I'm probably taking this the wrong way, but you seem to be suggesting that the word 'divine' is purely christian in origin.

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Originally Posted by arcura

dwashbur,
Yes redefine the meaning of some words causes lots of confusion and trouble.
It happens in a lot of different beliefs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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It's not even a purely religious phenomenon. Words get redefined all the time.

Gay - happy --> homosexual
Queer - weird --> homosexual
Fag - cigarette -->homosexual
Handsome woman - attractive --> manly

hheath541,
The Mormon missionaries that come to my door DO believe that they will become gods.
They believe that God was once a man who became God. They say... "As man is God once was. As god is man can be."
I have talked with them a lot.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Maybe it's something I simply never privy to, not being male. Or maybe it's something I simply ignored and never filed away, or misunderstood. Don't know. A lot of the finer details and foibles I am just unfamiliar with because it's been so long since I heard them, or I just never did.

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Originally Posted by fallen2grace

I'm a Christian and I have a Mormon friend. I started asking him about his religion because I was curious as to what they believe. He told me that they have this other book that they added to the Bible. (The book of Mormon) Now, I think that's wrong to do, but I was still curious as to what was in it. So I asked him if I could see it.

He brought it to me and I took it home. I read the intro to it and thought it was weird. I told my mom about it and she freaked out saying I shouldn't be reading it.

So my question to other Christians is this: Is it okay to read other religious books other than the Bible, just because you want to know what's different about it? I have no intention on believing anything in that book, because I know what I believe.

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I would suggest to you that you think very seriously before you read books or literature published by sects that add to the Bible. Is there any difference between the Koran or the Book of Morman, both offer a completely different intrepretion of Scripture.

The difference between Christian belief and the Mormoms or the JW is that Christians believe Jesus Christ is God and we believe this on the testimony of Jesus Christ himself, where as these others believe Jesus Christ is a lesser God or even an angel. Each seeks and expects a different reward

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Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
Some Mormons believe that Jesus is not God but some do.
Some believe that Jesus is Adam reborn.
So it goes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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I know... it isn't what the Bible teaches at all. And these young men that go door to door are so sincere and sweet. Good, good people But I believe they are being deceived. I'd hate to be Joseph Smith standing at the Great White Throne Judgement... he's got some serious splaining to do.
To answer the OP:
There is nothing in the world wrong with being informed about another religion. I believe it can help in witnessing. My concern would be if someone wasn't grounded in their Christian faith, they could become like the man that James speaks about in the NT. He is tossed and turned by every doctrine that comes along. I know someone like that. She was a mormon, then she decided she was a born again Christian and now she is a Universalist. Only the Lord knows her heart. Stand for something.. or you will fall for anything...

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Originally Posted by Athos

Don't all Christian denominations do that very thing? "Historic" Christian teaching? Whose history?

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I confess I'm not sure how to answer that. Historic Christianity is just that, Christian teaching that has come down from the New Testament onwards. It includes things like the trinity of God, the deity of Jesus as a full part of the godhead, salvation by grace brought about through his death and resurrection, that sort of thing.

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Are you suggesting Mormons are not Christian? Just curious.

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To quote a new friend of mine, good grief. Where exactly did I say that? I went to great lengths to avoid such ideas, yet somehow you managed to read it into my words anyway. I give up.

Just to throw another question out there.

Someone told me that Mormon's think God has a wife. Is this true?

I do not know if that is true Mormon speaking but sometimes I wonder. Why does God only have to be considered the male figure.

They created us in their image. Some people would say it is talking about the Holy Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.

The thing is for almost most species that we know there is male and female, so maybe there is a connection to that theory or thought that God the Father would also have some sort of companion like God the Mother, and together they created everything.

Just like we come together male and female and create as well.
Not many people would like that type of thought but it must be possible when you truly think about it.

Joe

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Originally Posted by fallen2grace

Just to throw another question out there.

Someone told me that Mormon's think God has a wife. Is this true?

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Some do, some don't.

The reasoning is rather simple, when you think about it. It takes a man and woman to make a child. So, it only makes sense to have a heavenly mother and a heavenly father.

She's rarely talked about, and isn't worshiped at all. It's just a personal belief held by some people. I don't think anyone's ever tried to elevate her to the level of goddess, or even thinks she needs to be. She more just something that must be there, so is there, and it's nice to think that she is.

Kind of like gravity. Few people ever really think about it. Before you learned about gravity in school, it just didn't matter. After you learned about gravity, it became something you expected to be there, but you rarely actually think about it existing. Almost like an afterthought.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper1976

I do not know if that is true Mormon speaking but sometimes I wonder. Why does God only have to be considered the male figure.

They created us in their image. Some people would say it is talking about the Holy Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.

The thing is for almost most species that we know there is male and female, so maybe there is a connection to that theory or thought that God the Father would also have some sort of companion like God the Mother, and together they created everything.

Just like we come together male and female and create as well.
Not many people would like that type of thought but it must be possible when you truly think about it.

Joe

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Judaism was actually one of the first religions, if not the first, to attribute the creation of life solely to a male deity.

Almost every other religion has a female creator. In greece it is hera. In egypt it is isis. For the celts it is the triple goddess (maiden, mother, and crone as three aspects of one being). For the norse it is frigga. Even the ancients made figures of what is popularly thought to be a creation goddess.

Given all that, is it really so odd to think that the christian god may have a wife?

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Originally Posted by hheath541

judaism was actually one of the first religions, if not the first, to attribute the creation of life solely to a male deity.

almost every other religion has a female creator. in greece it is hera. in egypt it is isis. for the celts it is the triple goddess (maiden, mother, and crone as three aspects of one being). for the norse it is frigga. even the ancients made figures of what is popularly thought to be a creation goddess.

given all that, is it really so odd to think that the christian god may have a wife?

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While it is true that male pronouns and terms like "father" are used of the God of Christianity (and Judaism), there is nothing inherently male about God. Motherly attributes are often used to describe God (the mother hen in Psalm 91 is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, but there are plenty more), but one of the chief features of the monotheism of Israel in contrast to the nations around them, is the fact that Israel's God didn't have human attributes, and hence couldn't be represented by figures like idols. Obviously, that's gotten lost at times over the centuries, but it's true nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by hheath541

given all that, is it really so odd to think that the christian god may have a wife?

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Yes. To me it's odd. But then again, that's just me and what I believe.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

there is nothing inherently male about God. Motherly attributes are often used to describe God

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Yes, I've always thought of God having both male and female attributes or characteristics -- e.g. hunter-killer protector as well maternal comforter.

classyT
I agree with you on reading information about other religions, But it should be like you said, Stand for something or you will fall for anything.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

To quote a new friend of mine, good grief. Where exactly did I say that? I went to great lengths to avoid such ideas, yet somehow you managed to read it into my words anyway. I give up.

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When I asked if you were suggesting Mormons are not Christian, I got the idea from this quote of yours on April 14, post #4:

"Whenever I go to read something like the BoM, or something from the JW's, or such material, I always try to pray over it first and ask the Lord to drive out any influences that might be hanging in or around it. Like the late Walter Martin, I tend to believe that Satan himself energizes such cults." (Emphasis mine)

By your "tending to believe that Satan himself energizes such cults", I think my question follows naturally. So I don't think I "read it into your words" - it's right out there in plain sight.

Athos,
I can see how ypu came to that thought.
That is particularly so when it is known that there are people who do not believe that Mormons are Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Athos,
I can see how ypu came to that thought.
That is particularly so when it is known that there are people who do not believe that Mormons are Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Yes, arcura, and that is why I asked the question to dwashbur. Since he objected so strongly, I felt it necessary to quote his own words.

Dwashbur has yet to reply.

there are theories that do not take away or add anything was just about the book of revelation. Just a theory.

I have read the Book of Mormon. There are some really truly good ideas about different things. Does not mean I adopt all, but rings true in some things. So to totally write off the book of mormon to be completely false is not the case.

Another thing is Mormons may use that book as another testament but that will NEVER replace, or interfere or be part of THE BIBLE that we have known for thousands of years.

Just do not toss it in the garbage as useless because there are many writings and many prayers and thoughts and ideas that actually ring true or coincide with the bible and just because it is not literally from the bible does not mean there is no value in other writings.

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper1976

there are theories that do not take away or add anything was just about the book of revelation. Just a theory.

I have read the Book of Mormon. There are some really truly good ideas about different things. Does not mean I adopt all, but rings true in some things. So to totally write off the book of mormon to be completely false is not the case.

Another thing is Mormons may use that book as another testament but that will NEVER replace, or interfere or be part of THE BIBLE that we have known for thousands of years.

Just do not toss it in the garbage as useless because there are many writings and many prayers and thoughts and ideas that actually ring true or coincide with the bible and just because it is not litterally from the bible does not mean there is no value in other writings.

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exactly, and the book of mormon was never meant to replace the bible. Both are quoted from equally during services.

there are teachings and beliefs particular to the mormon church that just seem right, to me. There are also teachings and beliefs of other religions that I've adopted. Just because something comes from a different path, doesn't mean that it doesn't have value.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Yes, arcura, and that is why I asked the question to dwashbur. Since he objected so strongly, I felt it necessary to quote his own words.

Dwashbur has yet to reply.

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To Whom It May Concern:

I did actually answer athos in a PM, and I explained why; I didn't want to be accused of "bashing" somebody, since it has become clear that some here have a different definition of that term than I do. Here's the essence of what I wrote:

No, I do not believe that Mormonism as a religious system is "Christian." I again go with the late Walter Martin: Mormonism, as preached by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, is not Christian theology, it is not Jewish theology, it is not monothesitic theology. It is polytheistic in nature, because it not only says there are many gods, but it says humans can become gods themselves. This is completely at odds with the Bible and thus excludes Mormonism from being considered a Christian sect.

That said, I do NOT judge anyone's heart. I will critique the system and point out why I don't think the system is Christian, but I will not say whether any individual is or is not a Christian. There's no way I can know that; only God knows the heart. If a person within the Mormon religion is in fact a truly born-again Christian, it is in spite of the religion, not because of it. And if someone tells me that's what they are, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt; I can't see into their heart and hence am in no position to judge. This is the same approach I take to any person, regardless of their church affiliation or lack thereof.

Since somebody seemed to want to make this personal, there it is. I will say no more on the subject.

I think the term 'christian' is one too easily thrown around, and too closely guarded by those who use it.

There are those who will call themselves christian, not because they believe that christ was the son of god who died for their sins, but because they give gifts on easter and christmas. For them, being christian has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with celebrating a consumerized holiday.

Then there are the people who have turned being christian into some sort of exclusive club. For them, anyone with beliefs that even remotely appose theirs, is not seen as christian. They've turned being christian into an us and them philosophy. If you don't do and say and believe exactly as they do, then you aren't a real christian.

I don't think either extreme is a good thing. The way I see it, anyone who believes that christ was the son of god who died for their sins, is a christian. It has nothing to do with what church they do or do not attend. It has nothing to do with what holidays they do or do not celebrate, or how they celebrate them. It doesn't even have anything to do with what scriptures they read or how they live their lives in relation to scriptural guidelines.

I'll let others decide if I'm christian or not, according to how they define it. I already know the truth, and it would probably irritate most of you.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

To Whom It May Concern:

I did actually answer athos in a PM, and I explained why; I didn't want to be accused of "bashing" somebody, since it has become clear that some here have a different definition of that term than I do. Here's the essence of what I wrote:

No, I do not believe that Mormonism as a religious system is "Christian." I again go with the late Walter Martin: Mormonism, as preached by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, is not Christian theology, it is not Jewish theology, it is not monothesitic theology. It is polytheistic in nature, because it not only says there are many gods, but it says humans can become gods themselves. This is completely at odds with the Bible and thus excludes Mormonism from being considered a Christian sect.

That said, I do NOT judge anyone's heart. I will critique the system and point out why I don't think the system is Christian, but I will not say whether any individual is or is not a Christian. There's no way I can know that; only God knows the heart. If a person within the Mormon religion is in fact a truly born-again Christian, it is in spite of the religion, not because of it. And if someone tells me that's what they are, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt; I can't see into their heart and hence am in no position to judge. This is the same approach I take to any person, regardless of their church affiliation or lack thereof.

Since somebody seemed to want to make this personal, there it is. I will say no more on the subject.

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My apologies - I just now saw your pm. It was sent several days ago but I didn't see it. If I had, I would not have made the last post. Again, my apologies.

Closed, with warning PM to answer or address questions again is against the rules, if it is wrong to post it, it is wrong to PM it.

For purpose of this board, Mormons are Christians with equal rights and protection. They view thierself as such and are considered such from denomination view points. Other Christians groups don't view them as such, but again others don't view Churches with women ministers or gay minsters as Christian either, but they are all equal on our boards