I agree with that. Any fanatical group that does the stuff you highlighted in red fits the definition. And it follows that any group that has teachings that does not do that is not a cult.
|
I agree with that. Any fanatical group that does the stuff you highlighted in red fits the definition. And it follows that any group that has teachings that does not do that is not a cult.
Consider the end of their conversation. Why ? Because the Word of God in that chapter and verse goes on to say, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today and forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
This is why if anyone is being carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is good thing that the heart be established with grace. Grace is Christ Jesus, Grace is the Love of God. Again and again the scriptures tell us what Peter himself confessed. YES LORD I love you!! GRACE (Hebrews 13:9)
Hebrew 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
So indeed remember their conversation, because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Hebrew 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
This is exactly why the doctrine of Jesus Christ will always be the same. We follow Christ Jesus, we hear HIS voice. Because we live by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of GOD !(Matthew 4:4)
NOW Joe, are you telling me I am wrong in what I believe? I follow Christ Jesus, I hear HIS Voice, I love the Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus! I trust in HIS promise of the NEW COVENANT. I am begotten again in CHRIST JESUS. And I am keep by the power of God through ONE FAITH.
1 Peter 1:3-4-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
This is not a faith that rest in a denomination or in the RRC. My ONE FAITH REST in CHRIST JESUS.
~in Christ
God has blessed me, and I pray everyday that I can be all HE created me to be, with HIS hand of power doing HIS will.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhisservice
I fully understand also that those that do not see, and do not hear HIS voice, and do not believe in HIS worthiness to set us free from sin are beguiled by satan.
Jesus said to the Jew, the leaders known as the Pharisees, and Scribes
John 8: 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Those that follow Christ, are begotten again in the Christ Jesus and are Sanctify with the Holy Spirit
John 17:15-16-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
God grace be with you
~in Christ
I don't hear his voice so I guess... http://kenr.co.uk/devil_waving_md_wht.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
:)
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
450donn,
Yes I do think that some of the over 30,000 denominations are dangerous cults, BUT they are listed as Christian Denominations.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
OK Fred, you opened the door. How about naming a few for us less enlightened ones.
Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today: and the same forever. Be not led away with various and strange doctrines. For it is best that the heart be established with grace, not with meats: which have not profited those that walk in them.
You’re absolutely correct in your assessment, it is a grace given through the Church, a all inclusive fullness of the heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
The contention is that the grace given here is salvific grace, presumably from avoiding divers and strange doctrines. Not quite right. You would be more right to consider that “the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it has well pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell” (Col 1:18-19). As you’ve stated many times all graces come from God. The firstborn from the dead, Christ is that body referred to here, that is Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Church. Christ “is firstborn from the dead, and who holds primacy pleases the Father,’ then so too would be “His Mystical Body please the Father in all fullness. All the things received by Christ are given to the Church.” (Cf. John 16:15). Now fullness can describe many things, fullness of grace, fullness in God’s glory, fullness in God’s hope, fullness of faith, etc. But, this is the DADDY of all FULLNESSes this is a DIVINE FULLNESS. This thing that might rightly be called, ‘All-fullness’ is given to Christ which in turn is given the Church. So too, “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.” (John 1:1). By the proclamation of made in the Gospel of John 16:15 this grace would be added to the cornucopia of All-Fullness. Add that this too was prophetic, “He prepared them bread in the first place unto fullness: for the sacrifices also of the Lord they shall eat, which he gave to him, and to his seed.“ (Sirach 45:26). Consequently, we can see why in the Paul’s Epistle, it is best that we walk in this All-Fullness because “it is best that the heart be established with grace, not with meats: which have not profited those that walk in them.” Where do we get ‘All-Fullness’? Did you miss it? It is in the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church. The Church is in Christ, and Christ is in the Church, a dichotomy similar to the Eucharist; it’s the Real Presence of Christ that consumes us as we consume it bite by bite.
JoeT
450donn,
I would, but I don't know them all. Just those that have been in the news such as Heaven's Gate, Jonesburrow, The group in Europe which killed themselves (I've forgotten the name).
Also the Asian group whose name translates to "Jesus died for us so we die for him". The leaders do the killing of the followers after the followers donate all their possessions to the group.
There are more but over the years I've forgotten many names.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
JoeT777
First of all there are verses that do indicate that we need to follow the word of God. For example this verse says it all:Quote:
When I checked , I could only find one verse that spoke of the Word of God that implied that we should follow. But, it doesn’t say follow the ‘Word of God’. It says to follow faith taught by our prelates. Prelates are bishops, archbishops, etc. This would imply to follow ‘Church’.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
We need the Scriptures to live i.e. the Eternal Life.
The verse you quoted is right in saying that we should follow the faith of the "leaders". That would refer to the Apostles. You would find that they strictly stuck to the scriptures. Paul for one strictly followed the Old Testament and a familiarity with the OT will show that he has quoted extensively from it in his letters.
How do you say that the "prelates" are bishops, archbishops, etc?
You had said that "Non-Catholics must by their nature proclaim themselves (individually or collectively) supreme arbiter ". That non-catholic is a person I referred to as a Christian.Quote:
Who are you refereeing to when you say, ‘the Christian of himself’? You lost me. What this verse teaches is clear; “will guide you into all truth…” is Christ telling the Apostles, that the Holy Ghost is promised to them and their successors, to teach and preserve unity and truth. See also John 14:26
The Holy Spirit is not promised for a reserved few. It is promised for anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and accepts Him as his savior.
The Apostles were Spirit led. That means that the Holy Spirit guided them in whatever (important) they did. In Acts you will find that the Holy Spirit tells Peter to go with Cornelius' men. Paul plans something but the Holy Spirit prevents him. So they were led by the Holy Spirit. So when they wrote the Holy Spirit worked in them. So yes the Scriptures are God breathed and should be given great reverence. But we obviously should not worship it be cause specifically taught us (quoting the OT) that we should worship only God. Interestingly Jesus himself quoted a lot from the Scriptures.Quote:
Are you saying that the New Testament was written by Apostles who reacted to God’s will robotically; if so, shouldn’t we be calling them ‘God-bots’ instead of Apostles? If the Gospel of St. Matthew appeared on his desk one day, literally written by the finger of God, shouldn’t we be about worshiping the Book?
That's a blind faith. Where is the evidence?Quote:
The authority to, as it were, infallibly rule is given to the Catholic Church.
True but is the RC the Body of Christ? That is the question.Quote:
The full deposit of faith is was given the constituted Body of Christ;
Only the twelve? No. In fact all Jesus Christ commissioned all of us. Otherwise why was Paul, Appolos, Timothy, Titus etc. going around making disciples?Quote:
This is a commission of The Twelve and is passed down to their successors.
The Holy Spirit. He protects the Scriptures also. Though there are many versions of the Bible the internal message is not affected because of divine protection.Quote:
I wouldn’t either if I was a sola Scripturist, I would want to know who vouchsafes the very bible I have in my hand.
Unfortunately, sadly that is what many people do (create their own church). But proper unbiased study of the scripture would eliminate disagreement. I do not agree by such behavior.Quote:
What happens when, amongst the sola people, a disagreement arises over what is meant in scripture, do you simple create a new ‘church’?
inhisservice,
Scripture not only tells us how The Church was established it also tells that The Church is the pillar and foundation of The T.
Truth.
Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly.
It was The Holy Spirit that inspired Scripture and the Catholic Church to promulgate that Scripture into the Holy Bible which the world can use.
Not only does Scripture tells who has the authority so does authentic history.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, again if you are going to make such claims, back them up with scripture! Otherwise you claims become irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
1 Timothy 3:15Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth
House of God = Church
Church = Church
Living God = God
pillar = Church
Ground of Truth = Foundation = Peter = Church = Catholic
JoeT
Joe, since you choose to jump in and answer for Fred then please answer why Fred says this.
"Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly." By this sort of statement you are stating flatly that all other forms of Christianity are not following the teachings in the Bible and therefore are not Christian.
There is NO reference to the RCC anywhere in scriptures. This is some notion that appears is being ingrained into followers of the pope. And I still cannot figure out where it comes from. Except maybe from some teachings NOT found in the bible.
I thought the difference between bloging and a forum was that in blog you make statements, controlling the length, content and theme. In a forum only the theme is controlled and, not withstanding etiquette, one is free to 'jump' in at any point, i.e. interact. I answered so that you would have the correct information; I can, if you wish, refrain from doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
The Church holds that you can interpret most all of scripture in any form so long as it is contextual, represents the intent of the writer and 'harmonizes' with all other Scripture, Tradition, councils, and Papal decrees. And, it assents to the Magisterial teachings. There are only 7 verses that I'm aware of that are 'doctrinally' defined. The notion going around is found in non-Catholics who think the Church 'brainwashes,' ingrains, or wise dictates what each verse means – the Church doesn't. Had it ever occurred to you that you get somewhat the same scriptural sense from all Catholics, because they are correct?
JoeT
450donn,
Joe has done a good job explaining and Scripture with providing.
I also did that some what in regard to The Church's authority to correctly interpret Scripture when I mentioned the bible say that The Church IS the pillar ans foundation of the truth. However I did not mention where in the bible that was as Joe did.
Being the pillar and foundation of the truth clearly indicates the Church can and does interpret Holt Scripture correctly, therefore the truth.
Joe explained how that was done, in context to all of scripture not selected bits and pieces as many others do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
So AGAIN you are claiming that the RCC is the only church and the rest of are heathens? Is that what I am hearing from you?
Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly.
It was The Holy Spirit that inspired Scripture and the Catholic Church to promulgate that Scripture into the Holy Bible which the world can use.
I am really insulted by these sorts of comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
No, it more occurs to me that you are getting the party line directly from one man.
Sorry, some of the stuff you are coming up with sounds more like you are a brainwashed member of a cult that a member of a church that is preaching/teaching the whole truth as found in the word of God!
I never used the word heatherns or for that mater a dirogitory term. I don't claim the RCC is the only Church. She is the only Divinely constituted Church of Jesus Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
This was a statement by Fred. In her doctrine, writings, and teachings the Roman Catholic Church is correct in her understanding of Scripture. Her Tradition produced Scripture as inspired by the Holy Spirit, and she protected Scripture from error for 2,000 years. Yes, Fred was correct.Quote:
Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly.
It was The Holy Spirit that inspired Scripture and the Catholic Church to promulgate that Scripture into the Holy Bible which the world can use.
And I got slammed for calling you brain washed!
If this answer doesn't please you, then just continue thinking I'm brainwashed, doesn't make me any difference. I've made it my business to know.
JoeT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
That's the point, the Catholic Church is teaching the revealed truth found in Scripture.
JoeT
450donn,
No, I did not say that or infer that others are heathens.
I am upset that you says so or think so.
All who are friends of Jesus are friends of mine.
That is the way I think and feel.
Christians in other denominations are brothers and sisters to me if they truly love anf follow Jesus as best they can and know how.
Millions of Christians are brought up outside the Catholic Church and really know no other than the one they were brought up in. They know or understand no other.
I am not a person who bashes or viciously puts down other denominations or the members thereof, as some folks do do.
That is a waste of time and love.
Some of my best friends and loved ones are members of other denominations and I do not think less of them for that or of or for you.
I hope you have learned to understand the Catholic Church better as has been presented here for we Catholics here are sincere.
I think that it is good that we understand each other. That way we can better get along well.
Having been a member and leader in a Protestant denomination fro many years helps me understand others point of view.
Frankly I still love to denomination I left for It brought me to Jesus and treated me well.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
JoeT777
As I have already told you and as scripture quite plainly states foundation is NOT Peter but Jesus Christ.Quote:
Ground of Truth = Foundation = Peter = Church = Catholic
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
When Jesus said that He would build His church on a rock He was not just randomly using a metaphor. He was using a metaphor which was quite familiar to everyone who has heard the scripture being read in the synagogues. It was a common metaphor and everyone knew what it meant.
Here a few of the numerous verses of the OT that speaks of the Rock.
2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
Psa 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
Psa 28:1 A Psalm of David. Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock;
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
Psa 92:15 To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.
Paul made it clear to us who the rock was.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
The scripture is clear that the rock is Jesus Christ. It is also clear that Jesus said to Peter "You are a small piece of a larger rock". You once said Jesus spoke Aramaic. So He did. But when He spoke Peter He just used a Greek word.
Let me also bring this verse to your mind.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
The "modus operandi" of Jesus is not such that an authority exists as a leader among men. No one is supposed to exercise authority. He alone is our authority. This is the same reason why God did not give Israel a king. "The greatest among you must be the servant." The RC goes exactly opposite to this doctrine.
Therefore the only way you can establish that Peter was made the leader of the Church is either by rejecting the scripture or by twisting it.
But Fred, this is not the first time you and/or JoeT777 have made these sorts of claims or accusations. What am I suppose to think when you keep repeating this mantra and Joe follows along and keeps repeating this same party line?
inhisservice,
Sorry, that is not correct.
If you read the passages correctly Jesus was talking directly to and about Peter AND Jesus gave him the power to hold or lose things here which would be made so in heaven
Note closely that Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven which made Peter His prime minister on this planet.
Also...
Thus both Jesus and Peter are referred to Rock
Peace and kindness,
Fred
NOW you are trying to say Peter is the same as Jesus? How ridiculous!
MY God have you totally gone off the deep end.
Now I really know the truth Fred!
450donn,
No I am Not!!
I said that they both have been referred to as a rock.
That IS recorded in Scripture or I would not have mentioned it.
Matth 7:24 First it was Peter as a rock, later in Corinthians it was Jesus. It was Paul who did so as a spiritual Rock. By then Jesus had died and gone to heaven.
1 Corinthians 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)
There are many things in the bible referred to as a rock.
Check it out if you don't believe me.
I stick with Holy Scripture for my truths.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
AS I speak, I can change metaphors from time to time; it’s quite common, sometimes all within the same sentence. There no difference between Peter the Foundation and Christ the foundation.Quote:
Originally Posted by inhisservice
Yes Christ is the Rock. He is also the founder; but more important to Paul a more important metaphoric image of spiritual rock. Obviously missed was my post concerning Peter the Boulder, Rock, stone, or pebble. But, here the metaphors are too important to miss.
“For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud: and all passed through the sea. And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea: And did all eat the same spiritual food: And all drank the same spiritual drink: (And they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.)”
The Jews walked out of Egypt under the smoke of the pillar of fire, through the parted sea. They ate manna from heaven that saved the body but, “your fathers ate manna in the desert, and are dead.” (John 6:49). They drank from a rock from which water flowed. You may remember the miracle in the desert, Moses was commanded to “strike the rock, and water shall come out of it that the people may drink.” (Exodus 17:6). Paul brings this to vividly to mind, but then he adds, “And they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them” linking it to “and the Rock was Christ.” The spiritual drink that gushed out was the blood of Christ, and the manna the body of Christ; a metaphoric connection the Real Presence of Christ, i.e. the Eucharist. The reference to water and Moses is a direct allegorical connection to baptism. Paul makes no bones of it; he places meat on the Table; a holy Altar where life sustaining flesh is served, the Lamb of God.
To Paul’s Jewish audience, this message is the same vivid one Christ gave the Pharisees on Passover. The manna their father ate didn’t bring eternal life, but there was “new bread which comes from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.“ A bread that sustains life forever. (Cf. John 6:47 seqq.)
JoeT
inhisservice,
Joe did good job explaining that for you.
But keep in mind the Paul was writing that after Jesus had died and gone to heaven.
And clearly he was speaking to the Jews who knew of the rock from which water came in Moses' time.
Jesus was the spiritual water which now flood to them that followed Jesus.
BUT Peter is the Rock on which the Church was built.
In its way it is also a spiritual rock for The Church id the abode of the Holy Spirit which guides and inspires it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
The disagreement seems to be over the above, i.e. transitive sequence of events.What we you are examining is whether something is equal to something else, e.g.. Ground of truth=Peter, Foundation=Church or any other possible combination.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Ground of Truth = Foundation = Peter = Church = [B
Such a sequence leads to an infinite regress because:
(1) There are justified beliefs.
(2) Every justified belief is justified by inferring it from some justified belief or beliefs.
(3) No justified belief justifies itself.
(4) Belief x justifies a belief in y and y justified a belief in z and so on.
In order to make the sequence finite we can say that Z is the conclusion. As in the above case where Catholic is the conclusion. This however results in the sequence being circular.This is because one of the justifications could not be known to be true unless the conclusion was assumed to be true.
Tut
TUT317,
I go by what the bible clearly says about Jesus appointing Peter to be the first Leader of The Church.
To me the Holy Bible is the truth of God's Word and it says that The Church is the foundation and pillar of the truth on earth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Hello Fred,
I have absolutely no problem with that.
I see the problem being in the way the relationships have been expressed in a transitive format.
Regards
Tut
TUT317,
I do not understand what you mean by the word transitive.
Please help me understand it.
I have never used that word.
Fred
Hi Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
It is a bit like this:
Helen is the mother of Alice, Alice is the mother of Jill, Jill is the mother of Jan and so on.
For example, Helen and Jan are related, but we cannot say that Helen=Jan. A lot depends on the way we use is/equals.
I hope this helps.
Regards
Tut
TUT317,
Thanks.
That works for me.
Now how does it apply to how we have been dealing with this topic?
Fred
Hi again Fred,
For a relation to be equally transitive it must be of the following type:
a=b and b=c, then a=c
This works well in mathematics but becomes problematic when dealing with factual examples in language.
If you consider the example I gave you earlier, Helen can never equal Jan. Even though they are related they are two distinct entities. Strictly speaking the example is intransitive.
Intransitive relationships are of the type, ab and
because always implies NOT ac.
(This is different again to non-transitive relationships. It will not be necessary to go into this).
Consider the example mentioned a few times in the discussion.
Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic
Basically what I am claiming is that the above is of the intransitive type.
In other words , it is of the type, not equal.
Regards
Tut
TUT317,
Ah, now I see what you are getting at.
But your "Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic" should be with the Ground of truth last as well as first.
Why, because Jesus is the spiritual Ground of truth who founded the Church and as the bible says it also is the pillar and ground of truth.
But also what we have here is a progress of accomplishment
Jesus, Truth, Foundation, Peter, Church, Catholic, Ground of truth.
What's missing is the ties... or word ties... as follows...
Jesus is Truth, He Foundation, with Peter as leader, The Church which is Catholic, which is Ground of truth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Fred:
Excellent response! Not to mention perfect logic! Tut needs to get up a lot earlier to get one on you.
Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic
The perfect circle of life
Ground of truth=Foundation=Peter=Church=Catholic=Ground of truth
JoeT
JoeT,
Thanks much.
Pax Christi,
Fred
He Fred,
Well done Fred. You people might be able to get back to your discussion without me interfering.
Tut
Thanks TUT,
Have a great gentle day.
Fred
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:09 AM. |