sndbay,
You asked this question. The words are not from scripture.
"Fred, are you saying they were not led by the Holy Spirit?"
My answer was an emphatic NO!!
And I explained why.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
|
sndbay,
You asked this question. The words are not from scripture.
"Fred, are you saying they were not led by the Holy Spirit?"
My answer was an emphatic NO!!
And I explained why.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
That's not a good answerer. You and your bunch gather over there, me and mine gather over here. How is that One? The Spirit tells your bunch one thing, mine another how is that One Spirit? You and yours have hope, me and mine have hope, how is that One hope?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I don't buy it. (Come to think of it, if you accept this disunity and I don't, how is that One?)
JoeT
Fred you posted the following Quote, saying you are led by God, (Father Son, Holy Spirit), AND (HIS Church). So in truth you are not only led by the Holy Spirit, but also include being led by members that commune togther in HIS Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Reference your post
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
This post, also says that HIS Church is the bride of Christ. That statement is Not true according to scripture, the Word of God. I offered and posted scripture in proof for the edifying in Christ. This is to help you Fred, not to offend you in any method. I speak truth and offered you scripture in the Word of God.
Further more you posted [above] that the (first church) who are members, were recruited and led by the apostles and disciples and served the members. I can offer scripture that quotes the apostles saying they too like us who are in Christ, are led by the Spirit. They too followed Christ, and not man. HIS Church is not led by man's doctrine, but is led by the Spirit of Truth in the Word of God. We as members serve the Lord Jesus Christ who is the firstborn of the church.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
We Love God above all things, and never leave our first love by following any other, but in one man the Lord Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God who was sent to led the Way. The church is that of the firstborn Christ Jesus(Romans 8:29)
John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
This following scripture verse is speak of anyone thinking they can be the bread of life or that they can give the bread of life. Christ alone is bread of life.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
We are the branches in Christ who is the viine. The vine feeds the branches. The Father in heaven will take away and He will also give to those that are fruitful. In all and through all it is God our Father the Divine Power in control. .
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
~Sincerely given in love, God's grace be with you
There is only ONE! That is why we must stay awake to follow ONE!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Who do you follow?
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
~in Christ
Just a thought:
If Peter was the rock that the Church was established on, then the Church belongs to Peter, not Christ.
Matthew 16:6 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Review:2 Peter 1:16-18-19 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
The rock that Peter confessed was in Christ Jesus. Peter had just confessed "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God"
Christ then said My Father has revealed this unto you Peter.
Christ continue in say to Peter, upon this rock, what rock? The rock Peter had just confessed. The firstborn church Christ Jesus.
Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
2 Peter 1:1-2-3-4 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The church of the firstborn (Romans 8:29)](firstborn tranlation from prōtotokos in Christ)As members we are begotten again, (1 Peter 1:3) begotten again of Christ Jesus who was the firstborn.
Hebrew 12:23-24 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
The church of the firstborn, is the church of Christ Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
This might be to difficult to understand because many on this forum speak against the knowledge concerning the new nature or new man which walks in righteousness. The divine nature that no longer under the law of sin, because he or she walks having the spirit, and able to fulfil the law. It is written: (Romans 8:1-2)
The church of Christ Jesus the firstborn, was established as (2 Peter 2:4) says to grant that each member might be gifted in accordance to God's divine power.
To those that obtain the precious ONE Faith as the apostle and disciples did, through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. We might be partakers of the divine nature, because we have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. The apostles were called just as we are called by the Word of God Christ Jesus, to follow.
As we follow the Word of God Christ Jesus, we grow in this divine nature that follows righteousness, because the divine power gives all diligence, adding to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. (2 Peter 1:5-6-7)
Results in following and in answering HIS call, we are begotten again of Christ Jesus and fruitful in knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
We needed the branch of righteousness, that was promised, we had to have Christ Jesus because we were all dead in our sins, and beguiled by satan. Christ has set us free from the curse. We have liberty but should not take the liberty in a manner which places ourselved in bondage again. Instead walk having the spirit, For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
Not dead, We live in Christ, able to be raised as He was raised.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
galveston,
Not so.
The Church was established here on earth with Peter as the first leader of what Jesus called "MY CHURCH".
So it is His established to serve US.
So the bible say, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
galveston,
Not so.
The Church was established here on earth with Peter as the first leader of what Jesus called "MY CHURCH".
So it is His established to serve US.
So the bible says, so I believe.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred
Paul teaches that the church of members is the Father in Heaven's House.
(The House of God)
Christ is the High Priest over the house of members.
Christ is the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.
Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Hebrew 3:2 Who was faithful to Him that appointed Him, as also Moses was faithful in all His house.
Hebrew 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as HE who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Christ examples and idenifies Himself as a man that follows HIS Father in Heaven as the begotten Son of God. Christ being the firstborn(begotten of God) and the members that follow in Christ are begotten again of Christ.
(1 Peter 1:3)
Hebrews 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but HE that built all things is God.
sndbay,
I agree, but that does not change the fact that Jesus established HIS Church on earth with Peter as it's first leader.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Decisions Decisons that is your's and mine is differentQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I boast not of Peter, but I boast of Faith (Romans 3:27)
The House of God belongs to our Father, Christ as man was the firstborn, the begotten Son of God. And Peter was begotten again of Christ. We desire to be begotten again of Christ raised from being buried in baptism with Christ.
Christ is who I follow.
1 Peter 1:3-4-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
sndbay,
Just because I believe what the bible says about Peter and Jesus does NOT change the fact that I believe in faith and boast faith.
Nor the fact that I am begotten again of Christ Jesus.
Those are first and foremost to me.
It is also what I became a member of The Church established by Jesus because The Church also believes, lives, and teaches that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Galveston, et al:
I get a little laugh out of this logic. Hopefully I can show why. I've been to 'grand openings' and building dedications almost my entire professional life. At the commemoration of the building all the Suits, architects, engineers, other technical people who took the dream of the owner – founder – and made it happen would be there. They stand around patting themselves on the back for the great job they did – and they did. They'll tell little stories how this one did something funny or stupid and all will have a great laugh – or they might argue over how it would have been better to raise a 30th floor over the south wing – another form of self-congratulating ejaculation. These same people, who you might say, 'made' it all possible, laud themselves. After all, whether owner had the wherewithal to do plan the building or construct the building, it was these Suits that made it all possible – after all, standing before them is the evidence in living brick and mortar of their wherewithal. But at the commemoration of the building what name is the building given? 10-years from now how will the building be known? How about 100-years from now? Do you know the name of the architect or engineer of the Chrysler building? His name is William Van Alen; why isn't the building known as the William Van Alen buildings? Or why don't we call it the “Joe-smart engineered building”, or how about the 'Joe the Contractor's building.'
In zeal to 'disprove' the Catholic claim of being the One and only One True Church of Jesus Christ this is what you're proposing. Let's call the Church Luther's Church, how about John's-main-Man Church or the Pilgrim's Church. A gloss of the New Testament is very clear, this is an ages old custom of naming buildings and organization after the founder - no matter where or who actually built the organization – the 'hired' help aren't the important people at the commemoration ceremony or in knowing the building - it's the founder that made it all possible. This is the same simple sense that's being conveyed when Christ says “That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Christ 'the founder' is the cause of the CHURCH of JESUS which was built on Peter.
Thanks for the chuckle.
JoeT
When the Roman Catholic church starts to lead their people into being filled with the Holy Spirit, heal the sick, cast out devils, and produce disciples that live holy lives, then I will consider its' claim of being the Church that Jesus founded.
So far, I haven't seen any of that going on.
I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for credentials from any group that claims to be the Church.
I say the same about a lot of other denominations, so don't think I have singled out the Catholic church.
JoeT,
You got that very well right.
galveston,
Study some history please.
The Catholic Church is lead by the Holy Spirit and thus inspired promulgated the Holy Bible for the world to use.
Priests of The Church have healed the sick, thousands of them over the years.
The Catholic Church is well known for casting out devils via exorcism.
AND there are many disciples of Christ in The Church who do lead holy lives.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
You have that right from what I trust as true according to the Word of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I do not judge the people(members) but by discernment of each denomination, and their teaching. Many members are asleep as scripture would say. They have fallen for lies, and are listening to the voice of man.
The Spirit of Truth spoken in the Word of God tells us Christ died to free us from sin. Yet most denominations teach their members, they are sinners. The death Christ suffered, is that we are washed of our sins, dead with Christ from sin. Confessed faith in Christ Jesus for what He has done, trusting we are no longer sinners, but children of God. Baptized to be buried with Christ, able to raise as Christ was raised. Right here and now, adopted by Our Father in Heaven, begotten again unto Christ Jesus. A good conscience toward God to do HIS will on earth as it is in heaven. Walking in the spirit with Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1 Roman 8:4 Gal 5:16 Gal 5:24)
That is why we commune together in remembrance of Christ's body and bread. Rejoicing of HIS worthiness to set us free. (1 Corinthians 11:24-25)
Communion should not be done as a sinner that can continue to sin daily, and find rest on one day of the week. Nor is it said to crucify Christ over and over again.(Hebrews 6:6) This is the very reason people are sick in this world, because they commune not knowing the truth of Christ body and blood.
(1 Corinthians 11:29-30)
And too, those who pray to any other then Our Father in Heaven. We are told to always pray and worship in the Spirit of Christ Jesus to the Father. Why would you NOT understand this and choose to be blinded by men's doctrine.
Repent and follow Christ Jesus, hear HIS voice.
~in Christ
sndbay,
The Catholic Church prays only to God, but it does ask the saints to also pray. Just as you may ask a friend or relative to pray for you.
The Catholic faith is totally based on Holy Scripture and those who claim otherwise have always failed to prove that.
I know that for a fact for I was for many years a Protestant trying to prove it and I failed.
Therefore I became a Catholic.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, I have many Catholic members who have confirmed that they pray to the saints for help. One example would be they pray to a certain saint for lost items.. ectQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Supplication and worships for saints is not meant in praying to them or to make request to them.
Take for example when Paul said in (Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints) Paul was talking about praying for the saints that follow Christ in teaching the gospel, servants of God here on earth who are prosecuted.
Example: Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem
So Fred I would rebuke the prayer to saint, and edify in the name of Christ Jesus. We are to pray in the spirit of our Lord Jesus to the Father in Heaven. We have the liberty to do so in the spirit.
~in Christ
Let's look at the question of holy living.
I know that I have read on these threads that at least some Catholics (and others as well) do NOT believe that it is possible to live without sinning every day.
I don't know about Catholic teaching on this point, but there are some groups that actually tell their people that you cannot know whether you are saved or not until you leave this life.
If you do NOT know you are saved, then you are NOT. Salvation is received by faith, so if you do not believe you are saved, how can you be?
Proponents of this idea like this passage:
Rom 7:11-23
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(KJV)
They use this to say that Paul had a sin problem. They ignore the verses that follow immediately:
Rom 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(KJV)
Paul tells us that he does not walk after the flesh, so he does not have a sin problem.
God expects us believers to walk after the Spirit.
How do Catholics receive the Holy Ghost?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Is there any specified manner in which this happens?
How can you tell it has happened?
(These are not argumentive questions, I really want to know. Depending on your answer, I may want to discuss it later!:))
sndbay ,
I said that we Catholics ask saints to pray for us just as you might ask someone to pray for you.
Perhaps you didn't know that the ward pray means ask and ask means pray.
There is NOTHING wrong with asking others to pray for us.
galveston,
There are a lot of people who think that they know they are saved who will be surprised. Know-so belief is misleading.
If you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven and if not forgiven you WILL NOT be saved.
So Jesus says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Perhaps you did not read my post. I have been told by other Catholics that they do indeed pray to the saints.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The doctrine of man have taught, that St. Anthony was a perfect imitator of Jesus. That he was given the power to help find items that are lost. And in addition to that, they pray in hope to this saint, that he prevents the lost of the salvation.
This is false teaching!
This false teaching is not written in the Word of God. No scripture interpretation tells us that we pray to saints no longer in the flesh. Nor do we ask those that are deceased to help us in being saved from lossing salvation.
If you care to suggest differently, then I would expect scripture to back it up.
We obvious disagree where this teaching is concerned, and I leave the disagree in discernment for what I will be accountable.
~in Christ
sndbay,
Sorry, but I did read your post but apparently you read only the part of mine that you quoted.
The Catholic teaching on this IS Scripture based.
If I asked you as a Christian and therefore a saint to pray for me would you refuse?
The ask is to pray. To Pray is to ask.
Please try to understand that simple truth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
No Fred I would not refuse your request to me, because I am at the present time here, and not deceased from the flesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
However do you ask in prayer to St. Anthony who is deceased from the flesh to help you? Do you believe St Anthony is a perfect imitator of Jesus, that can help keep you from being a lost soul?
Please reference the Word of God in your answers.
Do we disagree in our answers?
~in Christ
Hope you don't mind me emphasizing your first sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I think this shows a mistake common among all religions, that what happened in the past justifies us in the present. That is just not so.
God is the God of the present.
We see it in the Old Testament, in this passage applied to individuals.
Ezek 3:20
20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(KJV)
In the New Testament, applied to the individual:
John 5:14
14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
(KJV)
John 8:10-11
10 When Jesus had lifted himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
(KJV)
Again, in the New Testament, applied to the Pastor and his church:
Rev 2:4-5
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(KJV)
Notice in the context that the church at Ephesus had its doctrine right, everything was correct EXCEPT that pastor and church had LEFT the "first love", and unless they repented, Jesus would remove that candlestick.
Removal of the candlestick would mean that this church could no longer be the representative of Jesus Christ.
Many churches fall into this category.
So I ask again, are the works of Jesus being done by YOUR church (whichever one that may be) today? Yesterday just won't cut it!
PS, Fred, you are a great guy, but it is not I that have to forgive in this instance. I have not been offended or neglected, it is Jesus that has been set aside in so many of our churches, and we need to repent of that and get back to that first love for Him.
What makes you think it would be any different from the way non-Catholic would receive the Holy Spirit?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
The Holy Spirit is the Third Person in the Holy Trinity. As such He is consubstantial (homoousion), which is to say, the same essence as God. The Catholic Church believes that the Holy Spirit offers two kinds of gifts, the sanctification for an individual, and a chrismata; an extraordinary unwarranted gift(s). These 'gifts' or graces have permanent and lasting qualities some of which include wisdom, understanding of God's revelation or truth, a spiritual prudence, fortitude, knowledge, and piety, i.e. “ fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity [patient endurance of hardship], mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity.” (Gal. 5:22-23). While these are normally thought of as 'supernatural' graces, they can be reflected only in our nature.
No special way, some are born with such graces, some 'work' to merit such graces; some receive prayer requests for the graces of the Holy Spirit, i.e. it is the will of God whether you receive such graces.Quote:
Is there any specified manner in which this happens?
Sometimes you can't discern where or how a special gift came from. To discriminate between the gifts of the Holy Spirit and those from other spirit s(we're talking about the bad guys here) is relatively easy. If the grace or insight given conforms to the teaching Magisterium of the Church then the grace is of God. As Christ stated a house divided cannot stand – logically Third Person in the Trinity will not contradict the other Two Persons in the Trinity. Which explains why many Catholics hold the Protestant Schism in such bad light, it can't be shown as a move to 'unity' in the One True Church of Jesus Christ. Consequently, one need only look at the Church's teaching on faith and morals to discern between 'good' or 'bad'.Quote:
How can you tell it has happened?
If these graces are 'private' in nature then we are not bound to them. For example, if you jump up and say that for the benefit of my salvation, I must recognize privately held understanding of 'Scripture' because it is of the Holy Spirit, I am not bound by those understandings. That particular insight given as a grace was meant for you alone. However, if the Holy Spirit makes it known through the Church that, as an example, Mary was Ever Virgin, then I am bound to 'conform my understanding' to that of the Church's. Notice that this doesn't mean to change my views against my good conscience, I need only conform them so that they align to the Church. If in good conscience I still can't come to the Church's understanding, then I am duty bound to be quite in public on this one subject. I can still discuss it, argue over it, or hash it out in private but a good Catholic must never substitute my own views for that of the Church. This should explain why so many times I've responded with quotes from the doctrine of the Church in response to your comments – If I'm to represent what the Church says, then I must tell you what the Church says – not what JoeT wants you to hear. If I express my personal views as different, I am bound to properly show how they contrast with the proper view of the Church. Unlike the Protestant or Evangelical disposition, Catholics do not hold that the sole rule of faith is Scriptural. And if it were, then what use do we have of the Holy Spirit? Aren't Scriptures black and white in matters of faith?
JoeT
Maybe it would be best to leave to the Catholic what Catholics believe. Catholics do not worship Saints or assign divinity to Saints. Once baptized, Catholics believe that they are of the Kingdom of God. That Kingdom extends from heaven through purgatory and across the earth – that is all of God's creation, heaven and earth is part of His Kingdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
As I see it, one of the hardest concepts for the non-Catholic (mostly evangelical – and not all by any stretch of the imagination) is that the Kingdom of God resides here on earth in the form of the Catholic Church as well as in heaven. The Kingdom itself is all creation, heaven and earth. Dividing the Kingdom of Heaven from the Kingdom on earth presents several problems. One implies that God no longer holds dominion over the earth; another is to say that God has no dominion in the matters of mankind; yet another is that it separates us from our brothers and sisters who sleep in Christ from those that live in Christ. The Catholic Church doesn't make this distinction. It holds that the population of God's Kingdom includes those of us here on the earth, you might say marching forward; these are called the Church Militant. Those souls which are asleep and destined for heaven but with the stain of sin must become clean before entering heaven, that is purged. These are the members of the Church in purgatory we call the Church Suffering. These souls need our prayers for completion of the processes of purgation–I don't present 'purgatory' here for your contention or argument – rather a Catholic matter of fact. Then there are those whose souls who reside in heaven, which is also God's Kingdom. These members of the Kingdom we call the Church Triumphant. All are living souls, alive in Christ. Thus, we pray, or implore, or entreat, or urge, or beg those already in heaven to pray for us. This is little different than asking your neighbor to pray for you – a thing Catholics do too. While Catholics regard angels and saints as above us in rank or station, they are just as equal to us in the eyes of God as your elected public servant is above you in station, yet equal. And, like the public servant, we expect these angels and saints to, as it were, pass our petitions upward. In so doing we are united in our faith, one people seeking the mercy of God.
JoeT
Rev. 22:18 & 19 For"I testify to everyone who hears the words of
the prophecy of this book; If anyone adds to these things, God will
add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God shall take away
his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things
which are written in this book."
Prov. 30:5&6 " Every word of God can be trusted. He protects thoes
who come to Him for safety. Do not add to His Words. If you do, He will correct you and prove that you are a liar."
Why would anyone depart from God's Word.
Hebrews 4:12 " For the Word of God is living and powerful, and shapper than any two-edged sowrd, piercing even to the division
of the soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner
of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Love and Blessings, Maggie 3
I can think of only one reason why God established the Church. It has to do with the promises made to Abraham, Moses, and David. His plan is laid out in the sheep skin of Moses’ Tabernacle and stone of David’s Temple. The physical layout gives us clues to God’s plan, the sacrifices offered to God are returned in His Kingdom as Hope in the form of twelve Apostles.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Think about it, given the time, I think I can explain.
JoeT
JoeT,
Thanks for those posts. They are very well said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I question this JoeQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Hope in the the form of twelve Apostles?
Are you in belief that the Apostiles were somehow God's hope, because they offered their service in sacrifice, and in return for God?
(The Apostles served having the Holy Spirit,(gifted to them) and they served the gospel in Christ Jesus(Romans 1:9)
The Word of God says, Hope is in the gospel that is Christ Jesus
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
When hope is found within us we then are purified, we rest in that hope which is in Christ, and HE made us pure because we are begotten again in HIM, thus even as HE is pure we became pure in HIM. (1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy)
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as HE is pure.
~in Christ
This is another possible thread question. Because it draws question as to where in the scripture of God's Word would this be founded. I read no where in the gospel, of thoughts concerning purgatory. (purgatory is not spoken of in God's Word, and thus was not inspired by God)Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I believe in Heaven, and acknowledge we are flesh on Earth. I believe we can be raised when baptism in spiritual awareness, a good conscience toward God, and begotten again as children of God. And I believe we as children of God are one with Christ, not of this world, but likeness to a third heaven or another world as likeness to Noah's finding a place washed from raiment of the world in sin, in having white raiment.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Revel 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
John 17:9-16 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evilThey are not of the world, even as I am not of the world..
We then are sanctify, completeness in spirtual awareness, and hold stedfast in the fullness of Christ Jesus. Christ dwells within the adopt children of God who are holy because Christ is holy. His Kingdom on earth in which the veil was open for us to walk having the spirit, with liberty to come before the Father in Heaven in worship and prayer.
~in Christ
Thanks, Joe, for actually answering my question.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Now as to receiving the Holy Spirit, the repentant believer receives the Spirit of Christ upon salvation.
That is not the same as the baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit that the 120 received on that day of Pentecost, which was the giving of power that Jesus promised. That was also the birth of the Church.
Acts 8:18
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
(KJV)
What did Simon see that made try to buy the power to give such a gift? Other accounts in the Book of Acts say that the recipients spoke in “tongues” or for those of you with degrees, glossilalia.
Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(KJV)
Acts 10:44-47
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(KJV)
Acts 19:6
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(KJV)
You mention the fruit of the Spirit, which every believer will have in his life, but that is different from the manifestation of the Holy Spirit (called gifts by translators) as enumerated by the Apostle Paul.
1 Cor 12:8-11
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(KJV)
I have experienced some of these gifts in my ministry from time to time and have seen them in many believers’ lives over the years, so I know whereof I speak.
Jesus prophesied that His followers would speak with new tongues, among other things.
Mark 16:17
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(KJV)
I post all this for the benefit of any who care to know, because I understand that as long as I hold the Scriptures to be all sufficient for spiritual guidance, while you hold that the teaching of your church is equal to Scripture, then we will never bridge that gap.
(Do I detect in your post that there may be a point or two that you privately disagree with your church on but can not say publicly because you are a good church member?)
Isa 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(KJV)
Yes, they represented the Shewbread in Moses' Tabernacle, the bread in the presence of God. Twelve loaves of unleavened bread were exposed to God for 7 days, and then replaced them with fresh loaves – in my view this is a mystical prefiguring of the Twelve Apostles and their role in the Church. The priests eat the bread for divine inspiration in the Word of God because the bread was exposed to the word. In this way the Apostles gave hope to the faithful feeding, teaching the knowledge of his Truth (Hope) through the teachings of the priests in Shewbread was because they wereQuote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Yes the Apostles served the faithful; no they didn't 'serve' the Holy Spirit in the sense of that their role was to offer prayers, sacrifices, and libations like a Levite priest.Quote:
(The Apostles served having the Holy Spirit,(gifted to them) and they served the gospel in Christ Jesus(Romans 1:9)
As a reminder we find this unique offering in Moses' Temple; the "bread of the presence (of Yahweh)" (Exodus 35:13; 39:35, etc.), also called "holy bread" (1 Samuel 21:6), "bread of piles" (1 Chronicles 9:32; 23:29), "continual bread" (Numbers 4:7), or simply "bread" (Hebrew Version, Exodus 11:23). 'ártoi tês prothéseos, "loaves of the setting forth" (Exodus 35:13; 39:35, etc.) which the Latin Vulgate also adopts in its uniform translation panes propositionis, whence the English expression "loaves of proposition", as found in the Douay and Reims versions (Exodus 35:13, etc.; Matthew 12:4; Mark 2:26; Luke 6:4). The Protestant versions have "shewbread" which literally means 'bread of the face' and is used by Josephus the historian to describe the loaves. The loaves of bread spoken of here formed an important sacrificial offering prescribed by the Mosaic Law. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Loaves of Proposition.
The word of God is Hope, and we receive that word from the Apostles through their successors down to this very day through the bishops of the Church.Quote:
The Word of God says, Hope is in the gospel that is Christ Jesus
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
When hope is found within us we then are purified, we rest in that hope which is in Christ, and HE made us pure because we are begotten again in HIM, thus even as HE is pure we became pure in HIM. (1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy)
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as HE is pure.
~in Christ
Now we can start to see the reason why The Twelve Apostles are so important, without them we don't have the word of God. Thus the Apostles are the men on which Christ founded his Church; just as was told to Peter, “on you I will build my Church”. The Apostles represent the unleavened showbread in Moses' Tabernacle, and David's Temple. Recall, that the bible is vague as to whether the Apostles were baptized by John or in the name of Christ – Acts 2 is equally unclear. I contend that If baptized at all, the Twelve only received John's baptism. This was because they had already received a special grace much the same way the Blessed Virgin Mary was given a special grace. You might recall the angle said, “Blessed art thou among women”. The Apostles were the living version of the “loaves of proposition” [Cf. "bread of the presence (of Yahweh)" (Exodus 35:13; 39:35, etc.) "holy bread" (1 Samuel 21:6), "bread of piles" (1 Chronicles 9:32; 23:29), "continual bread" (Numbers 4:7), or simply "bread" (Hebrew Version, Exodus 11:23)] It's not like Moses 'manna from heaven, but a different type of food, you might say our first grace, food for thought, knowledge of Christ, i.e. hope.
In Moses' Tabernacle loaves of unleavened bread were placed on a table in front of the curtain in two stacks of 6 (12 loaves) in the presence of God. Now the blessed enjoy the sight of God. Christ's loaves of unleavened men were placed in the presence of God; given the knowledge Christ's Kingdom for our hope of salvation.
To the Jew in Abraham's time, Moses' time and the Jew in Christ's time it's a physical mark of a spiritual connection with God. It joined their manhood to God. (John 3:5) The only bread was the “proposition loaves.” The conflict with the 12 loaves should be obvious, bread is bread and meat is meat. Aaron and his priests (only those spiritually clean – presumably through the spiritual purification Mikvah) eat the loaves which made them spiritually pure to teach God's Law, God's Word. Likewise, the twelve Apostles were the loaves “in the presence of God,” exposed to the Logos. Holding the bread Christ said “this is my body,” the twelve holy loves were present – facing God, “face bread.”
“The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven.” But the residence God on earth is in Moses' Tabernacle or in David's Temple or in the presence of Christ. Commemorated and prophesized in for David's song,
“Bring to the Lord, O you children of God: bring to the Lord the offspring of rams. The voice of the Lord is upon the waters; the God of majesty has thundered, The Lord is upon many waters. The voice of the Lord is in power; the voice of the Lord in magnificence. The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars: yea, the Lord shall break the cedars of Libanus. And shall reduce them to pieces, as a calf of Libanus, and as the beloved son of unicorns. The voice of the Lord divides the flame of fire: The voice of the Lord shakes the desert: and the Lord shall shake the desert of Cades. 9 The voice of the Lord prepares the stags: and he will discover the thick woods: The Lord makes the flood to dwell: and the Lord shall sit king for ever. The Lord will give strength to his people: the Lord will bless his people with peace. “(Psalms 29)
A bifurcated fire that bakes these men into a homogeneous body is the very word issued from the mouth of Christ; both the purifying with fire and smelting with fire.
Fire has two properties, one wounds and corrects and the other illuminates with energy and zeal. This explains why the Apostles burn and shed and shed the light on our intellect and understanding, residing, as it were, on wisdom. “Thus those worthy of the fire will feel its caustic quality and those worthy of the lighting will feel the illuminating property of the fire. A hope “much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire” (Cf. 1Peter 1:7) A hope founded in Christ tested in the Smithy's fire, shaping refining the metal of men. It is a fire that consumes the impurities leaving only the precious
Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 1 Cor. 3:13-15
These common men were made into the uncommon or unleavened Apostles they were to become in the presence of God. They resided in the Temple in the presence of God. “Every word of God is fire tried: he is a buckler to them that hope in him. Proverbs 30
The voice of the Lord divides the flame of fire. The Bread of Life offers to us twelve men who will teach us Hope, God's hope under the roof of His Church.
The Voice of the Lord moving the wilderness. The Voice of the Lord perfecting the stags. To abide in God we live in the promised dwellings of the Kingdom of God with Abraham's co-heirs, i.e. Judaism and Catholicism. (John 16:33) The Lord will bless His people in peace. (John 14:27). This bread was the Twelve that are in the Presence of God, who in turn fed the world the Gospel, the Knowledge of God. The Presence Bread in the Tabernacle of Moses was the bread of Knowledge of Christ; unlike Moses' Twelve Loaves, Christ's were multiplied and will continue to be multiplied to the end of time.
JoeT
I’m afraid I don’t understand, yes the Holy Spirit gives ‘gifts’ or graces as the translators say. But you seem to be saying the only grace is to ‘speak in tongues’. Is this what I’m to understand, that unless you speak in tongues you don’t have the Holy Spirit? The Scriptures don’t allude to this either in the King James or any other reputable translation. Preempting an expected response, are you suggesting that only those who receive the ‘fruits,’ or graces as the translators say, are the only ones who receive salvation – but you’re dead and gone, what good would graces do you then. When back sliders, who had originally thought they were absolutely assured salvation, slide backwards, do they lose the fruits of these graces – that is become dumb as sin as suddenly as they were ‘saved’?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
And what does all this mean with regard to my comment? I can’t make the connection. Essentially, I said Catholics received the Holy Spirit any way He wants. Do Bible only people require God to respond differently? What kind of degree do I need to know what ‘glossialalia’ means – do we require the Holy Spirit to have a masters or phd before he can speak? Your response confuses me – you’ll need to straighten some things out for me. What I read was that the contention is that the believer controls how God reacts with mankind. I can't understand that - we dictate how the Spirit dispenses graces? Would you show me how this isn’t true and yet be a bible only sort of person?
JoeT
sndbay,
The apostles offer and provide hope of God's many graces.
That is what I believe an the bible indicates.
The apostles preached God's word and in several cases wrote it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Let's leave this to another thread; the idea of purgatory is in scripture, granted it's somewhat vague; you need to look outside of your book into the real world. You might think it hidden from you, but it's not hidden from us Catholics. Rather you miss zooming around driving your sporty solo scriptura with the same lack of discipline a 16-year old kid might have with his daddies sport car on an unauthorized spin around the Kingdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
But, the least you can do is pay attention to where you're going and where you've been. Instead of looking for purgatory try looking for the Kingdom. Look in places where it says that God created the heavens and earth -all creation is under His dominion. But I suppose those who are into schism-thing like dividing things up. So let's just look at the Kingdom of God that is right here on earth. You might recall John the Baptist's proclamation. Now, what was it that John was so fond of saying, wasn't it something like, “repent the KINGDOM is at hand.” Maybe he was talking about some other Kingdom? When Christ sent the Apostles to various outlying regions to preach and teach, didn't he tell them to 'teach the Kingdom of God' – now wasn't that stupid? Teach about a Kingdom that didn't exist or a Kingdom that would simply fade away into the vagaries of a book?
If I were to sift through the number of times “Kingdom of God” was mentioned in the New Testament I'd get about 227- times where the phrase is mentioned. I think I could get a pretty good picture of Christ's Kingdom. In the Gospel of Mathew alone we have a complete image of the 'establishment' of a Kingdom. To fulfill the covenant of the Old Testament prophecy demands Christ to establish the 'Kingdom'. Where do you suppose it went – are you going to argue that the Romans defeated the Kingdom of God in some untold saga? If you remove all 227 references to the 'Kingdom of God, the New Testament becomes nearly meaningless. I got news for you, for sure its gospel, the Kingdom of God is right here on earth, while we hold scripture sacred, we also know the Kingdom of God isn't in a dusty ol' BOOK. Instead, it's real, it's as promised, it's alive with saints and sinners, embattled, under siege from within and without by sin, protected by Christ's promise; we call it the Roman Catholic Church and as promised she will persevere even from the gates of hell, possibly even the BOOK. She is a living breathing Kingdom, complete (figuratively speaking) with body soul and Divinity. You zoomed right past her, as it were, leaving the Bride of Christ on the side of the road; read in your book about the Kingdom and “mystical body of Christ”. That may be why I take the Church bus; I don't want to leave anything Christ gave us abandoned on the side of the road – ohm, on a road to leads to Rome.
Then there is the Kingdom of Heaven which is only mentioned 95-times in my New Testament. Do you reckon it's still in Heaven?
JoeT
Fred, The point is that I don't leave my first love that is in Christ Jesus, to follow and praise the Apostles. They were inspired by God, through the gift being the Holy Spirit. It is God's hand and power that I hold stedfast in faith and trust.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Christ Jesus was sent as the Word of God in HIS own flesh that walked this earth. I am led by the spiritual drink, and spiritual meat that is the Rock Christ Jesus. And I will never leave my first love to follow man. It is Christ voice I hear! Scripture is His flesh, the Word made flesh. Spiritual meat in daily bread that is revealed unto us according to Our Father that gives. The Word of God that we eat, is the Bread of Life in Christ Jesus.
The cup of blessing in which we commune together as members is in Christ, His Body and His Blood that we give thanksgiving, and praise. We eat and drink in rememberance of Christ, and HIS worthiness.
~in Christ
Revel 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The bride of Christ is New Jerusalem according to scripture "The Word of God"
Anyone believing differently has committed adultery by being seduced and betraying the marriage.
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