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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Fred:

I was raised Catholic and reintegrated, so to speak, in a fighting hole after a short falling-out; then I settled in the land of the Southern Baptist. To survive, I learned to rely on our 2,000 years of Catholic history for answers for the ‘once saved always saved’ crowd. This may be the reason for my ‘in-your-face’ manner.

I’ve been told by Protestant converts that the single most difficult hurdle is the adoration of Mary – I never understood why. Since you’re a convert, can you shed any light? These same converts also tell me that statues and the Crucifixes seem ‘different’ but easily understood. Consequently, the objection over the veneration of statues by non-Catholics seems to be simple demagoguery. More to the point, the argument seems to be used to validate pigeonholing Catholics as pagans or some ‘sub-Christian’ group, not sophisticated. Do you get the same impressions? Your insight would be valued and appreciated.

JoeT

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JoeT,

Course you didn't ask me why as far as the adoration of Mary but I will tell you why.for me. Because she was a mere woman... a woman who had to be saved by grace. Oh she found favor in the eyes of God and she was chosen to give birth to our Lord over other woman, but she was a sinner nevertheless and her son.. the Lord Jesus had to wash her sins away just like he did mine. I feel the same way about any mere man being elevated to a higher status. This doesn't mean that I don't look up to Godly men, but for most non Catholics all of our adoration goes to the ONLY one who deserves to be adored... the Lord Jesus Christ.

You stated to survive you lived on 2,000 years of catholic histroy. I would suggest to survive you should have lived on and ONLY on the word of God. Jesus said he was the 'bread of life" and he was the Word made flesh. I believe in the absolute infalliable word of God. That is the BIBLE. Anything outside of it...is NOT God's written word to us. It is just history. Doesn't mean we can't learn things from history, it is just that it ISN"T the BIBLE.

I know, I know.. you didn't ask ME the question. But I just could feel it in my bones that you were dying to know what I thought. :D (I'm gifted that way)! :)

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Originally Posted by classyT

JoeT,

Course you didn't ask me why as far as the adoration of Mary but I will tell you why.for me. Because she was a mere woman...a woman who had to be saved by grace. Oh she found favor in the eyes of God and she was chosen to give birth to our Lord over other woman, but she was a sinner nevertheless and her son..the Lord Jesus had to wash her sins away just like he did mine. I feel the same way about any mere man being elevated to a higher status. This doesn't mean that I don't look up to Godly men, but for most non Catholics all of our adoration goes to the ONLY one who deserves to be adored...the Lord Jesus Christ.

You stated to survive you lived on 2,000 years of catholic histroy. I would suggest to survive you should have lived on and ONLY on the word of God. Jesus said he was the 'bread of life" and he was the Word made flesh. I believe in the absolute infalliable word of God. That is the BIBLE. Anything outside of it...is NOT God's written word to us. It is just history. Doesn't mean we can't learn things from history, it is just that it ISN"T the BIBLE.

I know, i know..you didn't ask ME the question. But i just could feel it in my bones that you were dying to know what I thought. :D (i'm gifted that way)! :)

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Of a mere woman never is it said that all generations will call her blessed:
In all of the New Testament how many mere people were described as, “blessed art thou”? I'll tell you; two and only two. One nurtured an infant Church; the other nurtured an infant God.

Luke 1

42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women ... 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be ...

Matthew 16

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. ...

Mary, the Tabernacle that held the person of God:

The person of Christ has two natures, that of God and man. Mary, God-bearer (theotokos) gave birth to the Person of Christ, who had one soul and one, body, the second person in the Triune is man. Thus, Mary is the Mother of God. To focus on Christ we find ourselves looking through the lens of Mary's life. Everything In Christ's Messianic Law and prophesies. God only reveals himself from behind a veil of the Tabernacle in the Old Covenant. Each article of the Tabernacle can be seen portray some aspect Christ's life. As an example, we see his teaching the “way of the truth” as narrow as the Tabernacle's gate, the light of Christ is symbolized by the Menorah, the Apostles were unleavened and represented the Shewbread. The Holy of Holies contained the veil that separated the Ark from the inner court. It contained the incense altar, the table of the Bread of Presence (12 loaves), the menorah, It was. Mary was the sanctuary housed the Ark of the Covenant, (Cf. Ex. 25-31 and Ex. 36 – 40). Every furnishing including the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies itself is of God.

Mary's womb becomes encompasses God; the Tabernacle as seen behind the Alter. What once was made holy by God must remain holy; this was the Law of the chosen people. The Tabernacle now empty cannot. Thus this Woman that bore Christ cleansed of original sin, the new Eave. The verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? For the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN shows us we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate. Mary was protected as it were, from experience the original sin of Adam. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary's Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary's womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.

Christ, the New Covenant, was placed in the Ark of the New Covenant, the womb of Mary. (Cf. Luke 1, Rev 11:19, Rev 12:1) God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ, whose two natures is God and man. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary as according to “Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1: 31-33) Eventually, He passes through the veil. Christ becomes the Menorah (light) of the world, whose Word fell on the Altar of Incense to raise as a pleasing scent to God.

Christ, the Jewish Messiah, was born in the Tabernacle, so too was the Church of Jesus Christ born in the womb of Mary. And when He hung on the Cross, giving up the ghost he gave a loud cry. “And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom.” With his death was the beginning, the birth of the newly commissioned Church, built on Peter. As promised to be with us always, Christ is truly present; being sacrificial lamb of both the Old Testament and the New. As He cried on the Cross, the Holy Spirit conceived the Church of Jesus Christ. In we see sacrificial exposure of the bread (Apostles) to the Face of God (Cf Matthew 16). As Christ adopted an earth father, so did the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church, adopt an earthly father, 'father', 'papa', the 'Pope', a fisher of men.

We call Mary's protection from original sin the “Immaculate Conception.” Mary is granted a singular privilege or grace being preserved from all stain of original sin at birth. The Church holds that at the moment her soul was infused into her body she was granted this Grace. There is no “scriptural proof” However, Genesis 3:15 suggests that Mary will will “crush” the head of the serpent. In Luke 1:28 we hear that Mary is “full of grace.” Tradition holds that Origen believed that Mary had a special advantage in grace. St. Chrysostom.

Ever Virgin:

Antiquity also held that that tradition held Mary is the Mother of God, attested to by the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. She is perpetually virgin, immaculately conceived, and assumed into heaven. The Nazarene woman, Mary, was born without ever knowing original sin being “FULL OF GRACE.” Her conception and birth was kept free from the stain of original sin and remained pure throughout her life.

Mary's Immaculate Conception:

The Virgin Mother of God would not be conceived by Anna before grace would bear its fruits; it was proper that she be conceived as the first-born, by whom "the first-born of every creature" would be conceived. They testified, too, that the flesh of the Virgin, although derived from Adam, did not contract the stains of Adam, and that on this account the most Blessed Virgin was the tabernacle created by God himself and formed by the Holy Spirit, truly a work in royal purple, adorned and woven with gold, which that new Beseleel made. Pope Pius IX ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854

Mary was Ever Virgin:

You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin. St. Jerome, Against Helvidius 383 c.

Roman Catholic beliefs:

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." Pope Pius IX Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854

So you see, Mary is far from a meager woman because of her humble obedience she is our hope.



JoeT

JoeT,

I understand your belief system. When I said she was a MERE woman, I only meant to imply that she needed to be saved just like me. I know she was blessed and how awesome for her to be chosen to give birth to our Lord. I don't take it lightly... I just don't adore or worship her for it. AND she isn't my hope at all. She was an obedient servant who found great favor with God. While that is admirable, MY HOPE is always and forever placed in the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.

James and Jude were the Lord's half brothers. I know, I know... you aren't buying THAT either.

I believe that Mary WAS a virgin when she gave birth to the Lord Jesus. ( and this truth in some so called Christian churches is now being given up completely!) So SEE we CAN agree on some things. AND I believe we BOTH agree that the Lord Jesus was fully God and fully man. So we should celebrate the things we do have in common.

In time you will see the error of your ways grumpy Joe and when you do... I will be here for you.. lol lol ( yes, I think I'm funny) :)

Unknown,

I agree we are not to worship anything other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And no matter how "Gody" or "spirtual" something may appear we aren't to make an idol and worship it. These so called visions or pictures of Mary that appear on a wall or whatever... THIS is an example of nonsense and people putting hope in something they can see. Oh and dare I say... going to see the POPE as if he is somehow closer to the Lord Jesus Christ than the average believer baffles me. He is worshipped as someone HOLY... it is nuts and clearly NOT the mind of our LOrd.

Thanks for the responses, though that took quite some time! Lol ;)

Now that you mention the pope, I don't even quite understand the system, and don't want to know. The simple fact that when the pope is chosen, black smoke will be 'discharged by the chimney' is strange to me... Wouldn't it rather be white, to show purity?

Anyway, I consider the pope as any other man. It's just one man chosen out from other man, all sinners. I may have respect for him, but not to the point of 'worshipping' him. We should focus on God, and God only (well, that's what I believe).

I'm also wondering about something... If someday, 'you' become pope (I know that the chances for that are extremely small, if not impossible), would you be adoring yourself, worshipping yourself? That would be quite... stupid I should say.

Ok, I'll take it that the pictures and statues of Mary are only decorations as far as they remain decorations. In another perspective, a cross, the 'fish', etc are symbols to show that one is christian, no more.

And I'm still waiting for the 'veneration' v/s 'worship'... what makes them different from each other, if you please (those who mentioned it)

Divine worship is our reverence or homage paid to God and God alone. This is a worship of ‘latria’, a Greek word that has taken on the meaning of a servant petitioning and expressing supreme honor given God and God alone. Adoration would be the type of honor that is called ‘dulia,’ a Greek word that means the honor that is due men who have served God. When praying to a saint, it is an indirect petition to God; it’s understood that God’s will is the agent that responds. The adoration given Mary is termed ‘hyperdulia’, a supreme honor.

St. Thomas Aquinas describes it best in paraphrasing St. Augsutine:
Augustine says (De Civ. Dei x), that "the homage due to man, of which the Apostle spoke when he commanded servants to obey their masters and which in Greek is called dulia, is distinct from latria which denotes the homage that consists in the worship of God." St. Thomas (II-II:103:3) (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica)

As some might find the difference between ‘worship’ and ‘adoration’ strange, I find it equally strange that God’s holiness lived in the lives of the saints would be ridiculed. The holiness found in these individuals should be held as an example and called on to pray for us.

There must be a misunderstanding someplace, because Catholics consider the Pope to be a man, the Pope considers himself to be a man, and a sinner. The Church doesn’t ‘worship’ him, nor does he worship himself.

JoeT

JoeT,

I ridicule NO person ( I hope I didn't anyhow)... nor do I give them adoration or worship. I wouldn't bow to them nor would I pray to them. They are but people who needed salvation just like me.

I'm glad the Pope considers himself a man and a sinner for he IS. Perhaps the misunderstandings are because of the way people seem to worship him and the fact that he allows it by letting them bow before him. I don't know? Maybe I'm way out of line or wrong. In my mind it goes beyond paying respect because he represents Christianity and is considered a religious figure. I met a Pastor that I think a lot of at a book signing. I admire him aa a strong Pastor and teacher of the word and I was happy to shake his hand. But there is NO way I would bow to him, or kiss his ring or call him HOly Father. So that is why I suppose we non catholics are a little baffled.

Personally, as a Christian woman, I ADMIRE the apsotle Paul. Oh, I admire all of the apostles but he has a special place in my heart for all he suffered to preach the gospel. He understood Grace like no other Apostle. I guess I am extra careful where I place my "supreme honor". As much as I admire Paul,I'm not sure I would use those two words and more importantly... I don't think Paul would want me too. He was a servant of Jesus Christ. AlL praise, honor, worship and goes to the only one who is truly worthy... the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's good that you admire the Apostle Paul. Your admiration is a form of adoration. Catholics call on the Apostles, saints, and angels in heaven to pray God for us. I'm no specially brave soldier who can march through life, alone, without spiritual pathfinders. Being a sinner, on occasion, I find it necessary to muster all the help heaven can assemble. “Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1)

I suspect that part of the difference in our faiths is that Catholics, like many others, believe in a living faith. That is we celebrate life, both natural and spiritual. When death comes it doesn't separate us from those in the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics believe in a community of saints that binds the faithful on earth with those souls in purgatory and those in heaven. Perhaps you don't hold to the same tenants but you may recall the Apostles Creed:

“ I believe in God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and earth And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; (3) Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead ; He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost, 9) The Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints The forgiveness of sins, 11) The resurrection of the body, an life everlasting." (Emphases is mine)

We believe that those faithful here on earth (the Church Militant) are in communion with our prayers with those in purgatory, the Church Suffering, and in communion with our prayers with those in Heaven, the Church Triumphant. This is a communion of the body of One Church transcending death through a spiritual unity in Christ. Thus, we hold that the saints can intercede with their prayers, and we hold the necessity of indulgencies, and the veneration of the saints. “… you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.” (Heb 12:12)

St. Thomas answers the issue of whether to pray to the saints.

Article 2. Whether we ought to call upon the saints to pray for us?:

... Further, the saints who are in heaven are more acceptable to God than those who are on the way. Now we should make the saints, who are on the way, our intercessors with God, after the example of the Apostle, who said (Romans 15:30): "I beseech you . . . brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God." Much more, therefore, should we ask the saints who are in heaven to help us by their prayers to God.( St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, III, supp, 72)

Article 3. Whether the prayers which the saints pour forth to God for us are always granted? :

It is written (2 Maccabees 15:14): "This is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God": and that his prayer was granted is clear from what follows (2 Maccabees 15:15): "Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword, a gift from God," etc.

Further, Jerome says (Ep. contra Vigilant.): "Thou sayest in thy pamphlets, that while we live, we can pray for one another, but that when we are dead no one's prayer for another will be heard": and afterwards he refutes this in the following words: "If the apostles and martyrs while yet in the body can pray for others, while they are still solicitous for themselves, how much more can they do so when the crown, the victory, the triumph is already theirs!"

Further, this is confirmed by the custom of the Church, which often asks to be assisted by the prayers of the saints. (St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, III, supp, 72)

JoeT

Joe,
I firmly believe is the communion of saints.
Fred

Okay, thanks for pointing those points out. :)

I'm a little confused too about Mary though... You previously said that supreme worship 'latria' is given to God alone, which is partly expressing supreme honour, and then Mary also gets supreme honour, though it is called differently, hyperdulia :confused:

I think it is okay to pray for others, for example asking for their protection and well being, etc. Conversely, it seems to me that some Catholics sort of 'exaggerate'. I know that's a poor claim because I cannot generalise, but I would like to know how you think about the people who practice around you. :)

The difference between hyperdulia and latria is the degree of honor. We know that it is God’s will that causes the response to the prayer. On the other hand, the saints can only act as an agent of God, and Mary, being a saint, is due honor with dulia. However, having carried Christ for nine months, Mary is given hyperdulia for her unique closeness to Christ.

I can’t speak for anybody but myself, but I think you’ve gotten the wrong impression about Catholics ‘praying’ to the saints. If they were in fact praying TO Mary expecting her to act through her will, then criticism would be in order. Don’t confuse devotion to the memory of a saint with the 'worship' of a saint.


JoeT

JoeT,

Why go through someone else when I can enter the throne of God myself. When Jesus died on the cross the veil was torn... This side of the cross we have the AWESOME privilege of going straight to the FATHER. Now, I LOVE for other Christians to pray for me or with me. And we are told to do this in the Bible. In the book of James we find the sick can call for the elders to anoint them with oil and lay hands on them when they pray. But see, they need to actually be ALIVE physically to do this. No where are we instructed to talk to the dead. In fact it was forbbidden in the OT. You remember the story of King Saul and the witch of Endor... not a good outcome there for Saul.

Here is something to consider Joe, how do you know anyone other than the Lord Jesus can hear you? I mean, I don't see anywhere in the word where the dead in Christ even know what is going on in individual lives. They are men and women who have died NOT gods. We get a glimpse in Revelation of silence in heaven when the Lord opens up the judgment bowls and the like but other than that... there is nothing to suggest they are even able to hear us.

Now, I just re read your post... you are saying that catholics don't pray to the dead saints? Well, now I am really confused because I thought they did. Some that I know do...

We could take it a bit further and say why pray at all, doesn’t an omnipotent God know what’s in our hearts and minds; doesn’t he already know the forthcoming events and our needs? The answer is yes. So why pray at all?

The answer isn’t so much what you pray for as it is why you pray. St. Gregory says we’re to call on God humbly and thus should turn to the saints to pray God for us. Since saints are in heaven nearest to God, then by Divine order they would be the most humble. “And since our return to God should correspond to the outflow of His boons upon us, just as the Divine favors reach us by means of the saints intercession, so should we, by their means, be brought back to God, that we may receive His favors again. Hence it is that we make them our intercessors with God, and our mediators as it were, when we ask them to pray for us.” Asking the saints to pray God for us is also following the Divine Order of the Universe, i.e. God’s goodness doesn’t come from a ‘softhearted’ weakness in His mercy, but rather a forgiveness in the His plan of redemption. It is the Holy Spirit that desires that the saints pray for us and in us so that prayer becomes knowledge of His Love for us. “Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings, (Rom 8:26) Praying is to come to know God and His mercies. We ask the saints to pray for us to experience their meekness, thus learning the practice of an unassuming nature of our spiritual and physical afflictions.

Don’t mistake prayer as tokens for God’s great vending machine of Divine Mercies – it simply doesn’t work that way. Prayer is speaking to God. Speaking to God results in knowledge of God; not favors, wishes, or dreams apple plumbs.

It is written (Psalm 140:2): "Let my prayer be directed as incense in Thy sight": and a gloss on the passage says that "it was to signify this that under the old Law incense was said to be offered for a sweet smell to the Lord." Now this belongs to religion. Therefore prayer is an act of religion. St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II-II, 83.

Now you've confused me, how does one ask a dead saint to pray? And wouldn't a 'dead' saint reside in ---that bad place--- not in heaven? Why would I ask somebody in hell to pray for me? See, Catholics don't have 'dead' saints; they are all spriitually alive!

JoeT


JoeT

JoeT,

Lol. Now Joseph you knew what I meant. Of course they are spiritually alive but that doesn't mean they are all knowing. I see know indications from scripture that they know us individually. I wouldn't pray to my Grandmother who I believe is "spritually alive" and with the Lord Jesus and she DOES know me.

I have no clue who St. Gregory is... but I think he might be confused. Because the BIBLE says I can come BOLDLY to the throne of grace in the book of Hebrews. Boldy would suggest with confidence, without hesitation or inhibition. Not once in the BIBLE does it say to turn to the saints in heaven that are close to God. I do have a High Priest though that the Bible says LIVES to make intercessions for me... that of course is my Savior.

Joe, I appreciate your posts. You are one informed catholic. I just strongly disagree on this issue.

classyT,
The saints in heaven have become on with God as Jesus said and prayed.
Therefore they know what is going on far, far better than anyone living in this mortal life does.
And as God told Job, we should converse with the saints.
I do on occasion to ask them to pray for me, but most of my prayers are to the triune God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by JoeT

If they were in fact praying TO Mary expecting her to act through her will, then criticism would be in order.

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That explains everything! That confirmed that the Catholics I know are in the wrong path. The extremists I know have photos of 'Mary' all over their home, only statues of virgins, one virgin for peace, another for whatever other names they call them. I'm sort of relieved that not all Catholics pray to saints.

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Originally Posted by ClassyT

I have no clue who St. Gregory is...

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Nor me lol! :p

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Originally Posted by ClassyT

not once in the BIBLE does it say to turn to the saints in heaven that are close to God.

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Originally Posted by acura

And as God told Job, we should converse with the saints.

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I too have never seen such a thing in the bible. Now, I haven't read the whole thing yet, but would you please tell which chapter and verse in Job. I know it's quite a lengthy book. :o

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

That explains everything! That confirmed that the Catholics I know are in the wrong path. The extremists I know have photos of 'Mary' all over their home, only statues of virgins, one virgin for peace, another for whatever other names they call them. I'm sort of relieved that not all Catholics pray to saints.

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Based on our conversation here, I’m quite sure you’ve drawn the wrong impression. If they are Catholic it’s likely they don’t worship statutes of ‘virgins.’

FYI - Pope St. Gregory I ("the Great")

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Gregory the Great

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

I too have never seen such a thing in the bible. Now, I haven't read the whole thing yet, but would you please tell which chapter and verse in Job. I know it's quite a lengthy book. :o

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So’s you don’t have to read the whole thing;

“Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1 - NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job 5 )

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

“Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1 - NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job 5 )

JoeT

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That is a very bad translation of that verse which reads
"Call now if you will but who will answer you, to which of the holy ones will you turn" (NIV)
And taken out of context, Job is being questioned about which gods he might turn to for there were no saints available, so this verse cannot sanction intercession to the saints. It is clear from this verse that Job will find help in God alone

It is interesting that shortly after the warning is given
"I myself have seen a fool taking root":)

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Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,

And as God told Job, we should converse with the saints.

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Very poor bible reading, translation, and interpretation there Fred. How could God tell Job to converse with the saints when there were no saints. You should go back and read Chapter 4 and 5 to see who is speaking and what the context is. You will find that the spirit is telling Eliphaz that consulting "holy ones" is futile and he is relaying this to Job. Help comes from God alone.

Paraclete,

I actually have read Job several times and I never got the any indication from any verse that we should pray to a saint at anytime. And my next line was going to be.".there WERE NO SAINTS" but I see you made that point for me.

And consider the story of King Saul and how the Lord forbid talking to the souls who had passed on. Saul wanted to speak to Samuel a prophet of God... Saul sought out the witch of Endor to bring Sameul back. Notice that Samuel didn't appreciate it either... he wanted to know why he was being disquieted. And things went really bad for King Saul right after the incident.

The Lord Jesus wants and desires a relationship with us. He doesn't need a third party to help out. From everything I have read the Lord wants ME to talk to him directly, daily. That is why the veil was ripped top to bottom... So I could BOLDLY come to the throne of Grace... with confiendence.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

That is a very bad translation of that verse which reads
"Call now if you will but who will answer you, to which of the holy ones will you turn" (NIV)
and taken out of context, Job is being questioned about which gods he might turn to for there were no saints available, so this verse cannot sanction intercession to the saints. It is clear from this verse that Job will find help in God alone

It is interesting that shortly after the warning is given
"I myself have seen a fool taking root":)

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It's not a bad translation at all. I think the problem you're having is in the narrative of Job. Job isn't talking at all. Let's take a look at the verse, “Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1 - Douay-Rheims)

In the previous chapter Eliphas is mocking and, in a roundabout way, accuses Job of some impropriety, after all God doesn't punish the innocent; right? Don't those who hold the once-saved-always-saved doctrine believe that God never inflects suffering on the innocent? Eliphas continues mocking Job, by saying try and call; see who answers you. Contemptuously Eliphas asks to see which of the saints he will turn to for comfort since none seem to answer.

And why not mock Job? I'd answer that we are sometimes asked to suffer along with Christ in His name. And Job does so patiently, steadfast to his trust in God.

In an attempt to make Job confess his sins, Eliphas reminds him that only a fool would be so obstinate. So, as here, we have the fool calling those suffering innocently, a fool. Who, turns out to be the bigger fool in the end of the story of Job?

But, just to make sure we haven't infected our Catholic understanding on verse 1 of Job let's look at how some of the other translations render the same verse; especially now that we understand the narrative.

Job 5:1Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn? (King James Version)

[OH no! it's in the KJV version. Those rascally Catholics must've snuck that in there too! No doubt it's a Catholic plot – let's look at the NIV]

Job 5:1 "Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn? (New International Version )

[Good? - no saints here. But, who are the 'holy ones'?]

Job 5:1"Call now, is there anyone who will answer you? And to which of the holy ones will you turn? New (American Standard Bible (NASB)

[Opps we got holy ones here too. 'Holy ones' could be saints? See Job 15:15 – but then we must recognize this translation renders the same way – 'pray to the saints'. ]

Job 5: 1 Eliphaz continued, "Call out if you want to, Job. But who will answer you? Which one of the holy angels will you turn to? (New International Reader's Version )

[The NIVRV only changes saints to 'holy angels' nothing new here except that still generally conforms to Catholic understanding of the verse.]

Job 5: 1 "Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn? (Today's New International Version)
[TNIV version is more of the same, but, the punctuation seems helpful – at least, it does if you like the Catholic rendition of this verse]

But, let's continue to see if we can find more scriptural evidence to praying or supplicating to the saints; we have Jacob who after fighting an Angel prays to him. "Jacob prevailed over the Angel, and wept and made supplication to him." (Hosea 12: 4). Furthermore we see that Paul teaches to 'communicate' with the saints.

Rom 12:11-13 In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord. Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer. Communicating to the necessities of the saints. Pursuing hospitality.

Not just an offhanded prayer, but prayers that are 'reverent', 'hopeful', 'patient', that is “He does not say, Bestow upon, but share with the necessity of the saints, to show that they receive more than they give, that it is a matter of merchandise, because it is a community. Do you bring in money? They bring you in boldness toward God. Given to (Gr. pursuing) hospitality. He does not say doing it, but given to it, so to instruct us not to wait for those that shall ask it, and see when they will come to us, but to run to them, and be given to finding them.” (St. Chrysostom, Homily 21)

Then of course we have Paul again who sends his three deacons to the Corinthians who minister to the saints. Paul turns his conversation in Chapter 16 to the “collections that are made for the saints.” How would such a verse be rendered with regard to praying to the saints?

And I beseech you, brethren, you know the house of Stephanas, and of Fortunatus, and of Achaicus, that they are the firstfruits of Achaia, and have dedicated themselves to the ministry of the saints: (1 Cor 16:15 ) “And that they flourished in good works also, he declares by what follows, saying, They have set themselves to minister unto the saints.” (St. St. Chrysostom, Homily 44)

JoeT

paraclete,
"There were no saints"??
Jesus said there were saints. I believe Him and not you.
He even said that they were living and not dead.
Matthew 22: 31. "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
32. `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
33. And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,

32. `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

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Fred look at the Scripture you have just used, what does it say? There is no focus on the dead here, no focus on the "saints", follow Jesus, Fred, not the flawed sayings and teachings of men

paraclete,
What Jesus said applies to all saints since Adam and eve.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,
What Jesus said applies to all saints since Adam and eve.
Fred

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There were no saints until Jesus made them so, Adam and Eve were not saints but examples of how not to live

Fred and Joe,

Of course all that had faith and died physically are NOW with the Father. But back before Jesus death and resurrection they were NOT with the Father in heaven. This is just one of the many things the death and resurrection of the Lord did. The Lord Jesus himself was able to march all of those OT believers in the presence of the Father. Before that time, they were in the same place as the unbelievers only they were in a resting place and a great gulf separated them from those that were in torment. We get a picture of this when Jesus spoke about a CERTAIN beggar man named Lazarus and the rich man.

I agree that "positionally" they were all saints before the death of the Lord Jesus but until He made the atonement for them on the cross they could not be with the Father. The blood of the animals covered them until HIS blood could make full atonement and wash them. Until that happened, they absolutely were NOT in the presence of the MOST HIGH GOD. So your theory of them being with the Father and therefore CLOSER to him... could not possiibly be so.

Again I will ask, when the writer of HEbrews says we NOW may come boldly to the throne of Grace and enter into HIS presence to speak to HIM... why would we need to humbly ask a "saint" who has already passed to interceed for us? Can't find that scripture ANYWHERE in the BIBLE. I can't find one scripture to suggest they know us individually and are able to HEAR anything we say. From everything I can find... "spritually and postionally" speaking I am just as close to the Father and have access to HiM as anyone who has passed from this life into heaven. See, Christ is IN ME. Can't get much closer than that.

NOTE: Joe... I KNOW the Lord is not the God of the dead but the LIVING! But that doesn't mean the onces that passed on can HEAR US! They are NOT GOD.

I view the scripture of Job 5:2-3 saying how foolish it is to think your envy for the saint would cause you to call on them. And God's wrath would be concerning this foolish deed.

REFER:
Job 5:2-3 For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one. I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation.

The hungry for the truth or fruitfulness can be swallowed up, because it was taken out of thorns. The intrepretation of these verses must be watched carefully.
REFER:
Job 5:5 Whose harvest the hungry eateth up, and taketh it even out of the thorns, and the robber swalloweth up their substance.

Instead we seek God for all the righteousness of HIS truth. HIS power does great things, marvellous things beyond any amount.

REFER:
Job 5:8 I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause

Hmm.. my bible is in French, (no worries) but it says angel instead of saints in Job 5:1, also in Rom 12:11-13. However in 1 Cor 16:15, here it says brothers... :confused:

Also, I agree with sndbay with what is in the context in Job 5:1-5. The first verse is like sarcasm asking to call and realise that he could call, but no one would answer.

Wait... does that mean you are arguing that you (JoeT and acura) do pray to the saints?

In chapter 5 of Job we do see the contempt for praying to the saints being stated by Eliphas. Eliphaz, Baldad and Sophar are three friends of Job. Eliphaz was a sage, Baidad and Sophar were well regarded Arabian leaders. But, Eliphas is mocking Job (maybe goading is a better word), in an attempt to get Job to confess his sins. It's obvious from the narrative that Job's neighbors are worried that the curse placed on Job will also visit them. But, Job is patient in his suffering – which is the moral of the story. Also see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Job

Chapter 1. Job's virtue and riches. Satan by permission from God strippeth him of all his substance. His patience.
Chapter 2. Satan, by God's permission, striketh Job with ulcers from head to foot: his patience is still invincible.
Chapter 3. Job expresseth his sense of the miseries of man's life, by cursing the day of his birth.
Chapter 4. Eliphas charges Job with impatience, and pretends that God never afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 5. Eliphaz proceeds in his charge, and exhorts Job to acknowledge his sins.
Chapter 6. Job maintains his innocence, and complains of his friends.
Chapter 7. Job declares the miseries of man's life: and addresses himself to God.
Chapter 8. Baldad, under pretence of defending the justice of God, accuses Job, and exhorts him to return to God.
Chapter 9. Job acknowledges God's justice: although he often afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 10. Job laments his afflictions and begs to be delivered.
Chapter 11. Sophar reproves Job, for justifying himself, and invites him to repentance.
And finally,
Chapter 42. Job submits himself. God pronounces in his favour. Job offers sacrifice for his friends. He is blessed with riches and children, and dies happily,
Source: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job

If verses 2, 3 and 4 in chapter 5 of Job are meant to show the folly of praying to an intercessor then there is a conflict with the entire book of Job; God appears to be schizophrenic. This is apparent when God dresses down Eliphaz for his foolish advice to Job. God tells Eliphaz to go to Job and have intercede on his behalf.

…he [the Lord] said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7-8)

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Wait... does that mean you are arguing that you (JoeT and acura) do pray to the saints?

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Yes I do pray to saints, and to Mary, but I don't worship saints or Mary.

What we have to remember is, that it is an honour to serve God.

A saint would be thankful and would humble themselves to serve! It is not that they are given honour by what they did, but they were honoured to do what was necessary.

Have you ever said your welcome to someone, and let them know it was a honour to help them. (humble yourself)

Refer:
1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

What we have to remember is, that it is an honour to serve God.

A saint would be thankful and would humble themselves to serve! It is not that they are given honour by what they did, but they were honoured to do what was necessary.

Have you ever said your welcome to someone, and let them know it was a honour to help them. (humble yourself)

Refer:
1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

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How does this affect our conversation - that Catholics pray to saints? I missed the significance.

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

How does this affect our conversation - that Catholics pray to saints? I missed the significance.

JoeT

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It all goes back to why you pray to them. Why you have hope of them helping you.

In chapter 38 of Job, God has told Job to get up, and to stop listening to those that know nothing. Will you believe God and trust God?

Hmmm... interesting... good points sndbay. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

But, let's continue to see if we can find more scriptural evidence to praying or supplicating to the saints; we have Jacob who after fighting an Angel prays to him. "Jacob prevailed over the Angel, and wept and made supplication to him." (Hosea 12: 4).

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Hosea 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto Him: He found him in Bethel, and there He spake with us

(he wept Jacob) by which former histories are supplemented by later Divine inspiration.
(God found Jacob) (Jehovah spake)

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Furthermore we see that Paul teaches to 'communicate' with the saints.

Rom 12:11-13 In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord. Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer. Communicating to the necessities of the saints. Pursuing hospitality.

JoeT

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Those saints to communicated to are as written and interpretated in Romans1:7

Romans 12:12-13 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Distributing means communicating
REFER
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hey thanks for shedding more light onto that sndbay. :)

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Hey thanks for shedding more light onto that sndbay. :)

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It is an honour to serve God

~In Christ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

It all goes back to why you pray to them. Why you have hope of them helping you.

In chapter 38 of Job, God has told Job to get up, and to stop listening to those that know nothing. Will you believe God and trust God?

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Yeah, He is referring to the three ninnies, and their friends, that keep giving him bad advice, those who “darken My words”. Considered any other way and you've butchered the entire narrative.

In this story we have the three antagonists, Job, and God. The antagonists want Job to confess to something he didn't do, they want Job to give up his patience and trust in God, they don't want Job to persevere in his faith. God then turns around, sets things right with Job and chastises the antagonists.

It's a classic story, in which praying to the saints plays an important role. Take that out and Job's trials mean nothing.

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

It’s a classic story, in which praying to the saints plays an important role. Take that out and Job's trials mean nothing.

JoeT

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I disagree

Remember Elijah's teaching,

And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.


REFER:
Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

I disagree

Remember Elijah's teaching,

And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.


REFER:
Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

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I'm not calling on the name of 'gods'

JoeT

Added Note: PS. – maybe there is more to your statement than meets the eye. Those being called on in prayer are saints, i.e. adopted sons of God. Taking your comment here at face value, you'd be suggesting that the saints are really pagan gods. Is this what is being said?