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Maggie, I trust this also shows how God holds the power to bring forward what was, and is HIS will being done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
I think if the church doesn't accept your water immersion baptism it is because it is THEIR doctrine they are emphasizing rather than your heart being right with God
Why? What do you base this on.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Based on that God isn't about Churches doctrines. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where it says you need to get rebaptized if you go to join another church?
I wasn't referring to 'rebaptism,' I would argue against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I thought you once said baptism wasn’t necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? If I’m correct then why do you refer to ‘doctrine of Christ?’ Do you see the contradition? If there is no need for baptism, then that is the doctrine of Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
JoeT
What else is there?
I don't think you answered my other question. Say somebody comes to God and repents and all then he is going to get baptised next week but he is in a fatal accident what do you think happens to him? Is God's arm so short he can not save?
I am not saying baptism is not important but I believe that God knows your heart and intent
#7 in the OP.
Obviously, the thief who repented (on the cross) could not be baptised, but was promised Paradise. There must be oppportunity.
Unless I have been mis informed, it was required for a Rabbi to be baptised by a Priest (High Priest?) before he began his ministry. This would explain the baptism of John as it relates to Jesus. John's baptism was unto repentance, while NT baptism signifies a completed work in the life of the believer.
The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a subsequent experience to salvation.
In the new birth, the Life of Christ enters the believer, and if nurtured by the believer will eventually choke out the old (sinful) life.
The beilievr is expected to refrain from sin. However, John writes these words to all believers:
I Jn 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(KJV) (emphasis mine)
If baptism isn't necessary then how do we explain away what Christ said to Nicodemus, "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." I don't see much wiggle room.
JoeT
I told you being born again of the water and the spirit is a spiritual thing Jesus was referring to and the actual baptism is ceremonial to testify to your inner rebirth.
You get baptised because you desire to follow Jesus and it is an outward sign.
Its not that baptism isn't necessary to follow but that baptism itself does not save you.
I think that three immersions taking place during baptism is a symbol ot the three person of the trinity.
I only witness it one time and have been to many baptisms during my 76 years here.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
JoeT777
Baptism is a spiril experience and its effect is power in our life. The keynote of baptism
With the Holy Spirit was to be power. This was a different kind of power than they had
Received when they first believed on Him. "As many as received Him, to them gave
He power to become the sons of God" ( John 1;12) This is power received through
Conversion. It is the power of legal right or authoriry to become something:
In this case, a son or daughter of God. In Acts 1;8 Jesus spoke of a different power.
In the Greek, this word used by Jesus is "dunamis" meaning dynamite." Ye shell receive
power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and shall be witnesses unto me both
in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the
earth." This particular kind of power-the power of enablement-is present in some degree in both conversion and sanctification. Its fullness, however, is received after the baptism
With the Holy Ghost has become an integral part of one's life and one continues to walk in the Spirit. It is a power that enables one to become like Jesus in a dimension that is
Not possible before receiving the Holy Gost. First, it is an explosive power to witness
Not of something but of a person, the Lord Jesus Jesus Christ said, "Ye shall be
witnesses of ME". Second, it is a power to be a witnesses wherever one is.
He doesn't have to "go" somewhere in order to witness-he is a witness anywhere he is.
The power of enablement is what the disciples wanted. Christ's physical presence
With them had generated this kind of power. At times they had healed the sick, cast
Out devils, won men to their Lord and done His great works. But this power was a fleeting experience in there lives. They had not been able to maintain the dynamics of it.
Then came the promise of the Lord, "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost
is come upon you."
Blessings, Maggie 3
So true!Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
This is why baptism should be done once you confess belief in Christ with all your heart. Baptism is the putting on of Christ (Gal 3:27) who will dwell within you in righteousness. And why we are told to sin no more, because Christ does not dwell in sin. You are baptized being buried into death with Christ (Romans 6:4)
1 Corinthains 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Joe, we must not judge, or prevent the soul of man. (1 Th 4:15) Because we do not know their hearts and what was intentional and not intentional. I trust those "asleep in Christ" are in question by what was taught to them, and not by what they followed, if it is indeed Christ they held in confession of Faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Those dead in Christ are raise first (1 Th 4:16), and they are those that are baptized, that do confessed Faith in One Lord One Faith One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:5-6)
I have continued to say that it is the Law of Faith, holding in ONE LORD One FAITH One BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
We know the will of God was for all to come unto HIM, and God has shown how HE brings forth HIS will to be done.
1 Cr 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
The hope for all in Christ
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Knowledge in doing the will of God, or being obedient to HIS will is necessary. And scripture does say that Baptism NOW doth also save us.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
However, to question the final judgement for eternal life concerning anyone, this should not be done.
We are servants in Christ, and as Christ told HIS disciples, the last shall be first and the first last: for many are called, but few chosen.
Not all do the same path in life, but what of that which is within the heart of "Faith" and not on what your flesh body did, or is doing, or has done.
An dividual can be as that man next to Christ on the cross, who confessed faith, and it was at his last moment of life.
Was he baptized? probably not, but was he circumcised by the law of God? Who knows.. Did he show that he was circumcised of the heart? YES
Is this man shown to be one of the last in a multitude of men to answer God's call? YES
1) Did Jesus' baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
2) Would John's baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John's baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John's baptism need to be re-baptized?
I think the Bible makes it plain (Acts) that John's Baptism isn't sufficient for the Christian
4) Was John's baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
quite probably, it is a ritual repentance or entering into something new
5) and following
What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
New Testament Baptism is a public acknowledgement of Christ and that you are dead to all that has gone before. Some Churches might baptise you into their church and in such an instance you should be rebaptised if you go to a new church but as a general rule you only need one immersion Baptism. Baptism isn't necessary for Salvation but to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven isn't just a future thing but also the here and now. It is symbolic of leaving the Kingdom of Satan and entering the Kingdom of Heaven.You can be rebaptised if you feel you have fallen away and need to make a new commitment at that level but generally repentance is what is required. You might want the symbolic death to sin again
Wow,
What a load of questions.
My answer is what I believe and that is that infants should be baptized and that one baptism, if does properly, is enough.
Also that baptism by itself does not save, but baptism is necessary fro salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,
Is this a catholic belief that baptism is necessary for salvation? Just curious.
) Did Jesus' baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John's baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John's baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John's baptism need to be re-baptized?
4) Was John's baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
5) What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
6) As a norm is it possible to enter heaven (the Kingdom of God) without a literal baptism?
7) What are exceptions to the norm?
8) Does baptism make the recipient a member in the body Church?
9) If the baptized individual changes denominations, is the individual re-baptized?
10) Can I have multiple baptisms? If so why? If not why?
One more question, do you see any element connecting the response to these question one to the other.
JoeT,
I will attempt to answer these questions or most of them anyway. I know you are chompin at the bit to know what I think. ;)
1. No. The baptism of John was not the same as Jesus. When someone is baptized as a believer in Christ.. it is symbolic of the Lord's death, burial and resurrection. It is an outward expression of an inward change.
2. No. Johns baptism was to repent for the kindgom of God was at hand. He had no knowledge that the Lord Jesus would have to die and be resurrected. It doesn't stand for the same thing.
3. Only if those that John baptized accepted the Lord as their savior, Yes they would need to be re baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
4. Not sure. John Baptized so that people could repent from their sinful living. He preached the gospel of the Kingdom. That is not the same gospel that we preach this side of the cross.
5. It is a step of obedience to the Lord and it shows the world you want to die to your flesh and live for the Lord Jesus
6 &7 I absolutely believe that there will be people in heaven who never got baptized. Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Sometimes a person may be saved all alone and has no time for someone to baptise them. Or perhaps doesn't understand they should be baptised . Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is NOT a requirement for salvation. But is something the Lord ask that we do for him.
8. The only thing baptism does is to express to the world that you belong to Jesus and want to live for him. You became part of the body of Christ the day you received him as lord and savior. This action has nothing to do with what church you attend or whether you are a member and you do NOT become part of the body of Christ during baptism.. that was already done.
9. If you were baptised by true believers after you accepted the Lord Jesus as your savior and you understood what you were doing... no you do not need to be baptized again.
10 I see nowhere in the word where multiple baptisms are necessary. The only time I would have it re done is if I didn't understand it the first time because I was a small child or maybe the church had wrong doctrine... like didn't believe Jesus WAS God. Something of that nature. Otherwise 1 baptism oughtta do you.
classyT,
Thanks for YOUR opinion on those questions.
But I still believe that baptism is needed for salvation as the bible so indicates.
Fred
Fred,
LOL... well now if it was just MY opinion it wouldn't mean too much would it? Ya know what they say about opinions doncha? Not good. Ha ha... anyway, I actually believe that is what the Bible teaches. I know many people do not. That's OK... I never have changed anyone's mind so far. :)
Peace and Kindness,
Tess
ClassyT ,
I view the bible telling us to put on Christ. Follow Christ, Walk having the Spirit of Christ.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Snd,
Me too! :)
AGREE.. Why else would God have told us that even all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Again it is because they too put on Christ , the same spiritual meat and drink, that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
I trust we need to all put on the ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. It is the truth of being one with Christ.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
sndbay.
I agree, "I trust we need to all put on the ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. It is the truth of being one with Christ"
Fred
Sorry to pull out that thread again. I would like to say that I agree onto the last few posts if the baptism implied is water baptism and add a few things since I have some spare time.
I say that because there is also the baptism by the Holy Spirit. (this was already said in the middle pages of this thread itself)
Baptism by immersion is not necessary, but if one does not baptise by immersion, it will be disobeying to God. (I don't know, however, if people who were not baptised were saved or not, dead people rarely talk, but if one knows that God told them to baptise, then he has to)
I am one to say, I trust we have to be baptized, and that baptism must be done by the body submersion in water. (immersed completely) We should not go according to man's doctrine, nor should be think man is baptizing the individual. The baptism is done by the SPIRIT, and witnessed by heaven and earth "ONE"Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
1 John 5:7-8-9 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in ONE. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Baptism is necessary as witnessed, and if we believeth not, we have made God a liar. WHY? because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
(1 John 5:10)
I said that it was not necessary because I'm not sure. I'm still not fully 'convinced'. I am wondering what happens to those that happen to know God, but die before they have the time to get baptised.
I, however, personally believe that I have to get baptised (I haven't yet, but plan to next week, I saw this thread weeks ago, but finally decided to have a look, and it was interesting!). I have thought over and over, and came to that conclusion.
I was told, for those saying that baptism must be done for infants, that baptism follows the acceptance of Christ, and an infant does not yet understand that. It has to be done when the person is fully aware of what he is doing, the symbol of it, and the purpose of it.
There have been testimonies, where people said they saw angels 'clapping' in front of them when they raised from the water, instead of the people who were gathered. (hence that God and the angels are pleased when they see we're getting baptised)
Ok, I would like to know, if possible what happens to the people I mentioned in the first paragraph of this post, if you please.
Unknown008,Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
I am no judge, and God's Will is done by HIS spiritual power to arouse and invigorate the spirit. If anyone judges, they would be judging God and HIS actions.
I believe One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, has everything in HIS hands.
God's assurance is that everyone is called, and even previously all were baptism. Refer:
1 Corinthians 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Scripture warns us not to tempt Christ, that all is an ensample to us.
Unknown008 and sndbay,
Are you saying that people who were not baptized by immersion but otherwise are not baptized at all.
If so I very much disagree with that.
There is NO proof that John the Baptizer completely immersed his people.
Yes they stood in a river, but water could have been poured over their heads.
I was baptized in a Lutheran church, and I strongly resent it if someone says that I was not baptized for I know that the Holy Spirit does dwell within me.
I strongly say that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Lord and Savior, the Son of God and God the Son.
As the bible tells us I could not say that if it were not but for the will of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Once Again and posted previously I am no judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Also previously posted I believe in the record God witnessed to us of HIS SON in baptism. To say it is not told of us to follow HIS footsteps in baptism, is to call God a lier.
FRED, when people questions their own path, they should take their heart felt questions to the LORD in prayer. Allow the Spirit of truth to led you. Stand still to listen, and surrender man's will to instead do the will of God.
Ok, got a teaching today on baptism, to prepare us and clearing all doubts concerning it.
There are in fact 4 occurrences of baptism, yes 4. I knew only two at first, but there are four.
1. Baptism of repentance (Marc 1:4)
2. Baptism of suffering (Marc 10: 38, 39)
3. Baptism of the christian (Matt 28:19)
4. Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5)
However, only two concern us, namely the baptism of the christian and that of the Holy Spirit.
And acura, to answer your question, it is found in Matt 3:16
If Jesus went up out of the water, that surely means that he was immersed with it, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.ebible.org/bible/KJV/
Also, Acts 8: 38, 39
Also, if you look for the word baptism wikipedia, you'll see that its roots are from the greek word "baptizo", which means to immerse.Quote:
38: And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39: And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
There is also scripture that compares Baptism to the like figure of the flood of Noah which destroyes evil. And the water of the flood was enough to submerge people.
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Not like the baptism John the Baptist did in forgiveness, NOW it is the good conscience toward God by a death to evil, and raising of life in righteousness by a quickened spirit.
And scripture compares baptism with Christ putting to death the flesh but quickened by the Spirit. We are buried with Christ in our own baptism. The flesh is dead to sin (evil).
(1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit)
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(Romans 6:1-2-3)
For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)
Unknown,
I believe one SHOULD be immersed because of the examples in the word. But I don't believe it is required for salvation so I'm not going to be dogmatic about it.
This is kind of off thread but I was raised in a very fundemental assembly and was there until my late 30's. When they remembered the Lord on Sunday they passed around one loaf of bread and everyone partook and then one glass of wine and everyone drank out of it. It didn't bug me too much until some of the older people started leaving pieces of the bread floating in the wine glass. Now, I'm telling you... it was gross.
The reason I mention it... is because they were insistant we must all drink from one glass because that is how they did it at the last supper. I don't get too hung up on that kind of thing in my old age... if someone wants to be baptized and they aren't completely immersed I believe the Lord will still honor it. It is about the heart and obedience MORE than anything else.
There is Scriptural testimony of baptizing of the young. “And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying: If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there." (Acts 16:15) It's unlikely that this woman would have left the children behind, no more likely than a Jew would have left his male children uncircumcised on day 9.
At the feet of Paul and Silas the magistrate cried, “what must I do”. "And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. Himself was baptized, and his entire house immediately" (Acts 16:33) It would have been a strange household not to have had children. Further evidence testifies that Paul “baptized the household of Stephanus" (1 Corinthians 1:16), as a Jewish father is obliged to circumcise his 8 day old son.
The relation to circumcision is clear to the Jew? Circumcision wasn't that unusual a ritual in Abraham's antiquity. Brit milah literally means Covenant of Circumcision. Baptism was not unique to the Jewish custom, a great many in the near east practice some form of circumcision. It seems that certain classes of Egyptians did it, as did some Indian tribes. What is unique is that God gave Abraham the commandment to circumcise (Cf. Gen. xvii, 11 and Lev. Xii,3) The Jewish ritual had both spiritual and hygienic purposes not to mention a unique marking of the male body. To the Jew in Abraham's time, Moses' time and the Jew in Christ's time it a physical of a spiritual connection with God. Brit milah was an obligation both for the father and for the child. Not only was the child to be circumcised on the eighth day of the child's life birth, but failing the father and child suffered a spiritual separation. The child would continue to suffer spiritual excision, (unable to enter the Kingdom of God to come – one of the most server punishments in the Jewish culture,) until as an adult he could be circumcised. I'm told the ritual that accompanies the brit milah is a solemn occasion with prayers and blessings recited with the child receiving his Hebrew name. The Jew did not take circumcision lightly; it marked them spiritually and physically as a member of the Jewish community and a future member of the Kingdom of God. It joined their manhood to God. (Cf. If there is interest Judaism Judaism 101: Birth and the First Month of Life)
The important points here are that circumcision is a Divine convent applied to ALL Jews. Consequently when Paul writes, “In whom also you are circumcised” we understand that God is doing the circumcision in baptism. And equally important is that this is “a circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ. Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.“ Clearly Paul is equating baptism with the definitive mark of circumcision; circumcision that is called baptism, obligatory to both father and child. Every Jewish ear in the crowd would have understood. Baptism is spiritual joining of man to God and until accomplished one suffers the penalty of kareit, (separation). For child and adult alike “he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: (Col. iii, 11-13)
These biblical testimonies are culturally engrained in Paul's day and it was not necessary to explain them in detail, similar to an American's claim to 'rights' as a cultural understanding of our God given freedoms. It was culturally understood that circumcision, vis-à-vis baptism, included the young. I'm not under any delusion that biblical references include a mandate to run out and baptize our children, but our Christian Tradition, like the Jewish traditions, recognizes the severe dangers to the mortal soul for both the child and his parents. The Roman Catholic Church urges all parents to baptize their children. Why not baptize the children?
JoeT
Joe,
What you said is true.
There is also the biblical case where a great crowd of Jews were ALL baptized.
It is hard to imagine a large crowd of Jews in that day and age with no children in it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
And I edify what you have said in the name of Christ Jesus, who's word is truth, and not what you have offered to this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Refer:Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
The stripes were what was laid upon them in prison, they were casted into prison and the jailor was given charge of them. They later at midnight prayed, sang praises to God. Then by the hand of God a great earthquake, and all the doors of the prison opened. This all caused the prisoners to believe, and so yes all were baptized.
The meaning of all his in concordances = greek 846, themselves and used being applied to what has previously been mentioned or when the whole discourse is looked at.
Stephanas household is the inhabited of the structure known as Christian convert of Corinth. (A converted Christian has confessed their belief in Jesus Christ)Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The will of man is spoken and being taught. And we do understand the will of the parent is that their children would come to know the Lord Jesus. However we have to surrender our will to do the will of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The Word spoken by scripture is that one thing hinders baptism, and that one thing is that they by their own liberty confess the begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. (This is the will of God)
WHY Not baptize infants? because the truth was shown in Jesus walk on earth, and as an infant HE was brought before the house of God in a dedication of thankfulness. He later surrendered to suffer baptism. How old was Jesus when baptize?
I agree that baptism does not save. It is accepting Christ in our heart as lord and saviour which does.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassyT
I know that immersion is the actual tradition. I would understand too that if one is not completely immersed, the Lord will still honour it. That would be the case when one cannot be immersed totally, like for example, an handicapped would not be easily taken for water immersion, nor would a person suffering from a serious disease. But one who can spare the time for this, complete immersion is preferred. That's my opinion anyway, :)
And yes, Joe and Fred, the bible did not explicitly mentioned the baptism of infants.
If you look in Matt 28:19, you'll see that Jesus told his disciples to go through the nations, and make them disciples of God, and then baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I wonder how can an infant who doesn't understand yet his/her purpose on earth be a disciple... :rolleyes:
And what sndbay said is another reason. Jesus waited for so many years (30 years) to get baptized. Why not at his birth?
How do we explain away what Christ said to Nicodemus, "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Are these different waters? If so, whose 'water' would it be? How would you render 'water' in this verse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
Baptism, according to Christ's words (not this Catholic's word), is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.
Compared to adults, infants are not very smart, are they? They can't even care for themselves, need to be feed, put to sleep, etc. The infant cannot survive without the care of adults. You might say they are 'primitive' humans – not quite human (that's an inside joke for people who had kids)? In any event there is a vast distance between the intellect of an infant and an adult. I wonder what the distance between the intellect of an adult and God is? To an omnipotent God, wouldn't the distance between an adult and an infant approach zero, that is relative to the distance between an adult and God? So, couldn't you say that baptism of any person (adult or infant) would be 'infant baptism' when viewed by God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
JoeT
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