So, you are basing your argument on the fact that suicide is NOT murder? Is that what I am hearing from you?
So how do you rectify the multiple times in the Bible that God/Jesus speaks about murder or murdering a person?
Such as EX20:13, MT5;:21,MT 23;31, RO 1;29, NU 35:30, JN 8:44, AC28:4, or 1JN3:15.
You first have to reconcile in your mind whether suicide is considered murder. In my book it is. So I have a completely different prospective on the subject.
There then is the whole debate of defiling your body which no one has broached yet. Could suicide be considered defilement of your body?
See, there is no black or white on this subject, and no one will have a true answer until the day we stand before our Lord and God to answer for your works/deeds. But personally I would not want to take the chance, do you?

450donn,

There is NO sin that is not covered under the blood of Jesus Christ. It IS murder... and it is forgiveable. I don't understand why we put so many conditions on salvation.

People claim that when you kill yourself that you can't go back and repent and if you don't ask for forgiveness for every sin then God can't accept you.
Which I can and can't see, because you are either saved or you aren't

We're not arguing that sin is or isn't forgiveable. But how can we be forgiven if we never say we're sorry?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

450donn,

There is NO sin that is not covered under the blood of Jesus Christ. It IS murder....and it is forgiveable. I don't understand why we put so many conditions on salvation.

---

That is true. However how can you ask/seek forgiveness if you are dead? See, this whole debate boils down the which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

My sins are covered, past, present, future. I ask for forgivness because when I don't my relationship with the Lord Jesus suffers NOT my salvation. If me asking for forgivness every time I sinned was a requirement I can tell you right here and now... I have failed.. I WILL fail. Heck sometimes I don't even recognize some of the things I do as sin until the Holy Spirit enlightens me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

My sins are covered, past, present, future. I ask for forgivness because when I don't my relationship with the Lord Jesus suffers NOT my salvation. If me asking for forgivness every time I sinned was a requirement I can tell you right here and now...i have failed..i WILL fail. Heck sometimes I don't even recognize some of the things I do as sin until the Holy Spirit enlightens me.

---

Accidentally sinning is not the same as making the choice to take your own life. In doing so, you are putting yourself in God's place by deciding who lives and who dies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 450donn

There then is the whole debate of defiling your body which no one has broached yet. Could suicide be considered defilement of your body?

?

---

I did mention the body is a temple which is in the same context as defiling

Quote:

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Originally Posted by this8384

Accidentally sinning is not the same as making the choice to take your own life. In doing so, you are putting yourself in God's place by deciding who lives and who dies.

---

I disagree with you. Sin is sin. My relationship with the Lord suffers when I refuse to confess my sins but they are ALL covered under the blood confessed and unconfessed. Believe me... I am sure I have unconfessed sin that I committed WILLINGLY in my life. I don't want there to be but I am a fallen creature. We could get in long debates about someone committing a terrible sin on purpose and then dying in a car crash with no time to repent or confess... they go to hell? Please . Salvation is by faith alone... I don't do anything to earn it... I can't do anything to keep it... it is a gift.

Suicide is a horrible horrible thing. It is a devastating terrible act... but the Lord Jesus forgives everything when we are IN CHRIST, Christ is IN us and we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. We are sealed with his spirit and ain't nothing or nobody going to take that away!!

Incidentally consider the man in 1 corithians 5... he was living with his stepmother as his wife ( yuck, puke.. disgusting). Notice that Paul considers him SAVED. He wasn't confessing anything... HE eventually did but he wasn't not saved because he chose to live in a sinful lifestyle... he was excomunicated until he got his life back on track...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

incidently consider the man in 1 corithians 5....he was living with his stepmother as his wife ( yuck, puke..disgusting). Notice that Paul considers him SAVED. He wasn't confessing anything....HE eventually did but he wasn't not saved because he chose to live in a sinful lifestyle...he was excomunicated until he got his life back on track...

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Where are you reading that Paul considers him saved?
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: 1 Corinthians 5

Paul was saying that the man should have been excommunicated so that he would turn from his sin, as we are commanded to do in Matthew 18.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by this8384

Where are you reading that Paul considers him saved?
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: 1 Corinthians 5

Paul was saying that the man should have been excommunicated so that he would turn from his sin, as we are commanded to do in Matthew 18.

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hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 1 corinthians 5:5

I think it is pretty clear. The man was saved... but he was turned over to satan until he repented... the bible says there is pleasure in sin for a season. I've been there I have done it... and after satan got through with me I came crawling back. I have never ever lost my salvation. I have lost comunication with the Lord Jesus because how could I pray when I was doing things that were clearly wrong? I lost my fellowship never ever lost my salvation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

I think it is pretty clear. the man was saved....but he was turned over to satan until he repented...the bible says there is pleasure in sin for a season. I've been there I have done it...and after satan got thru with me i came crawling back. I have never ever lost my salvation. I have lost comunication with the Lord Jesus because how could I pray when i was doing things that were clearly wrong? I lost my fellowship never ever lost my salvation.

---

You don't know if he was saved or not; only we and God know what is in our hearts.

When we choose to sin, we choose to separate ourselves from God. The only way to reconnect is through repentance and turning from our sin. Suicide doesn't allow for either of those.

Now, if someone is truly mentally incapable of understanding what they are doing, I don't believe God will hold them accountable. But when someone has the capacity to take the time to write out a goodbye letter, they know what they're doing and they're choosing what they want over what God wants.

Yes, life is hard. Some of us are stronger than others. But nothing is too hard for God. By saying that life is too hard to deal with is not placing your full faith in Christ and the sacrifice He made for you.

I can not believe people are still talking about this... "The chicken or the egg"?? Another provision, another subtext? Are you reading the same book I do, if our acts in any way shape or form could make us saved or unsaved than Jesus' death was in vain, and he would not have risen into a new body, which was Gods way of saying it is done, my sons sacrifice was sufficient, God does not live in a timeline you are all thinking God has a mind like our own, he is all knowing, yesterday and today and tomorrow do not exist a moment is not a moment to God, when you accept Calavary you are saved by that alone, I will not allow you people to try and say there is another way to state that its possible or its this or maybe that, the Bible states it plain as day BY FAITH ALONE YOU SHALL BE SAVED, not by following the law, not by not sinning, and as for unforgiven sins, that is a mans thought you are using your mind in this temporal timeframe as to say that, but to God the moment you asked him to be with you through the blood of Christ it was done, now of course if you stop believing AKA REJECT THE HOLY SPIRIT, well that is the only unforgivable sin and if you think about it you will know why. I know that right now I could kill myself, I would be saved, it is where your heart/soul is at with God not how many sins you have confessed in the last 24 hours and which ones you haven't and if your remorseful or kind of on edge or struggling with God on an issue. This argument is the same one John had with the Jewish people, go read Corithians, go read Romans, go read every NT after the OG Gospels and you will see plain as day we are saved by Faith alone, no fine print, no ifs and or buts, no chicken before the egg, no I preposes, just Faith in Calvary.

Obviously you choose to only pick what you want to read. I did not make up the passages about murder that I gave you. So pick all you want. But the bottom line still is and always will be,
Are you prepared to play Russian roulette with your eternal soul by committing suicide and then hoping that you are on the right side of this debate?
I summed up this whole debate way back in my post number 4. If you have jumped into the middle of this discussion, please feel free to go back and reread what I said there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by this8384

You don't know if he was saved or not; only we and God know what is in our hearts.

When we choose to sin, we choose to separate ourselves from God. The only way to reconnect is through repentance and turning from our sin. Suicide doesn't allow for either of those.

Now, if someone is truly mentally incapable of understanding what they are doing, I don't believe God will hold them accountable. But when someone has the capacity to take the time to write out a goodbye letter, they know what they're doing and they're choosing what they want over what God wants.

Yes, life is hard. Some of us are stronger than others. But nothing is too hard for God. By saying that life is too hard to deal with is not placing your full faith in Christ and the sacrifice He made for you.

---

Paul said what he said. HE thought the guy was saved. Me? I didn't KNOW him. But I tend to trust PAUL. The Lord Jesus obviously did too. He wrote most of the new testament.

Only the Lord Jesus knows our hearts. Only the Lord Jesus knows who is his. He and only HE will separate the sheep from the goats. But I submit to you... if you are a SHEEP... there is nothing you can do to become a goat. You are either HIS or you aren't.

AGAIN, I base my answer not on how I feel... or what seems right. I base it on the Bible.


450Donn,

You know I love you... but my dear friend... you are WRONG. I do not think suicide is right... I think it horrible but once you are IN Christ nothing and nobody is going to take that away... ( anyone who commits suicide is NOT in their right mind anyway, )

No sin is unpardonable, for one no I do not plan on playing russian roulette, there is no such game with God, he cleary states Faith in the Son destroys the sin that would be on us whether we are murdering or lying... are you choosing to believe in the "law" or in the "Son", I do believe repentance has to do with having a relationship with God and gaining the life he has planned for you, I do believe the attempt to not sin and the resistance of sin is special to God and that to have a good relationship with him is based on both these facts.. if you love me you will follow what I have said, he did not say if I love you I will save you, if you do not sin I will save you. He merely states time and time again that he will love you if you follow his teachings, but as far as saving goes you just have to believe, I know that probably is hard to swallow but that is all he ask, no act we commit will ever make us saved or unsaved, it says this again and again, what are you choosing to hear? You say you consider suicide murder... well I am glad your not God Don nor will you ever be, nor will your opinion ever hold sway over me, or mean more than what the apostle state all through those books you mentioned, there may be a handful of verses about murder, but there is nearly a whole book set upon how Faith has destroyed law, that the law condemed us it was against us, and that the Son came to destroy that law, Don I am sorry the god you believe in is not all forgiving and all powerful, because if he was you could not comprehend his actions, but the god you speak of seems very human to me, I could judge like your god, but my God I can not, I would say murder is an unforgivalbe sin, and I would also say the suicide is an unforgibable sin, I would say sleeping with a prostitute and lying to your wife about it is an unforgivable sin, but my God, he says no action but rejecting his gift is unforgivable. Don you are wrong, there is no unforgivable sin, you are wrong you do not have to ask for forgivness to be forgiven, that is simply for us, God knows we are forgiven he wants us to ask so we know, just like when he test you, he knows your limits, your strenghts and your weaknesses, but you do not. Abraham would have never known how much faith he had until the day God asked him to kill his son, than he knew. Don read the Bible stop judging by acts and by human standards realize the God in the Bible gave his only Son so that we were free of the curse of Sin and the overwhelming Justice of God. Jesus' blood covers a believer now, today, and tomorrow. Its seems to me you are choosing to read what you want, I did not read your passages because they are superceded (over-ruled) by the covenant I have with God through the blood of his son Jesus Christ.

same time post lol

Hey Flesh! :)

Well again you did not read my post Number 4 so I will reprint it here for you to read!
See, I look at it from another prospective. Murder is a sin and suicide is murder. How can you seek forgiveness for the sin of committing murder if you are already dead? It is a paradox for sure, and no one will have a definitive answer until the day of judgment.
So who is being judgmental here? Certainly not me. Like I said in my original post on this subject that this paradox is in Gods hands no matter what you,me, or anyone else thinks or believes the ultimate decision maker is God. I personally just do not want to be in a position to test what I believe God has said on this subject. If you choose to that is your prerogative and please feel free to test the almighty Lord. But, In my opinion testing God is a subject for another discussion.

I agree with ClassyT that he was saved and fell into sin because you don't hand over an unsaved person to satan to be delivered because they are already there and needing pulled out of the grip of satan. There is a difference between saying let them hit bottom so they can be saved and handing them over to satan.

450donn,

I read it your number 4 post. I understand your position but you are under the assumption that all sin must be confessed in order to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches all sins, past, present, future are covered under the blood. ( for true believers) I lose my fellowship with the Lord when I don't confess them. Not my salvation.

I would not now or EVER suggest that suicide is OK... for it is NOT! But I think we can have a definite answer...

What did the Lord Jesus say to those people in that day that they stood before him on Judgement day... they claimed to have done all kinds of miracles and wonders in his name and he said... depart from me you worker of iniquity... I NEVER ( never is key here) knew you. I know the Lord Jesus and he KNOWS me... he cannot say he NEVER knew me. He either does or he doesn't there just is no between. That is my take.

I agree Classy.
The distinction is fellowship not being as close and not loss of salvation.

If you think about it in God's eyes we sin everyday and don't even know it so how can we repent and confess every single sin.
While we may think we are doing all the do's and not doing the don'ts and asking forgiveness when we happen to fall short there are sins we aren't even seeing.
Like the sin of omission and the sin of not doing what God wants us to do.
Like how often do we feel lead that we should go witness to somebody or comfort somebody in need and then we just walk away thinking I
have other things to do. We don't see that often that was God putting it on our heart and we failed him.

Dear This,
Yes, only God has the answer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I've always wondered the same. Suicide and depression runs deep through my family. I would never do it because I feel that my life and body is a gift from god and is not mine to take.
This is going to sound crazy and I'm hesitant about even sharing it but you guys don't know me so I will...
When I was about 12, My aunt (a catholic) told me that when she was 17 she shot herself with my grandma's gun (she was a sheriff). She went on for hours going in terrifying details about hell. (I'll skip those parts) She said she tried to yell and pray for god but her voice was silenced from within. She then prayed with her heart and in her head and she said she saw a bright light and the claws released her body. She's still alive today and has scars that she says were from the claws. It's a pretty crazy story but I believe her and her story scared the crap out of me for years. I think god forgave and saved her in the very moment she cried out to him. Of coarse god is the only one who can judge your friend and nobody can really say where he was sent. I feel that if he was a true christian that he really is with God right now even if what he did was wrong.

I'm really sorry about your loss. I can only imagine the constant worry you have for your friend and the feeling of not knowing. Just keep praying and I will pray for you too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I have always stumbled on this, but in the end, the choice I have decided on is this.

no one sane would kill thierself, so if you do, there is a mental defect or some emotional problem, that caused it.

Thus a person who does this,is not of clear mind and they are not responsible for thier actions.

But on the other hand, merely "claiming" to be a christian is not saving you either, most christians are not saved. The real question only they know is if they accepted Christ as thier Savior at some point in thier life.

---

This answer really hurt me, Fr_Chuck.
I have lost SIX people to suicide in the past two years, two of them were my long-time baptist christian boyfriend and my catholic best friend. Now, I know Catholics may share different views to us Baptists but has the Lord not proven in His word that we are loved and are at right to seek forgiveness to our sins? I accepted Christ into my life at the age of fourteen, I was baptized in front of the entire congregation so I can understand your annoyance with those who may not have been saved.

Now, only a single one of my lost loved ones suffered from depression, so how dare you say they aren't sane. Who are you to judge who is mentally calm and who is not? And depression is <b> not </u> a mental defect, as the word defect is to say one is without something vital to life; a physical need to live.

All I recommend is anyone who has their doubts to see one side of this debate. Please take the time to have a read of this essay a friend of my father's wrote many years ago. But I believe it may open your subconscious to new insight.

Suicide: A Civil Right

Soldier,

Wow. I'm sorry you have lost so many people to suicide. That is horrible and devastating to say the least.

I really can't speak for Fr_chuck but when I read his post I got something totally different from it.

I think he just meant you have to be in a horrible state of mind to commit the act. I personally don't believe people are thinking clearly, whether it is from depression, fear, pain... whatever. AND if they are thinking clear and call themselves a Christian it would be a hard pill to swallow to believe such a thing.

I have no doubt the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. PERIOD. (IF one is a true believer.) BUT there are many people who sit in church Sunday after Sunday and only have a mental belief. That is to say, they believe that Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again however it has NO effect on their life. They have NO relationship with HIM. There is NO fruit. These are the people who say they are Christians... but they do not know HIM.

As a Christian woman, I believe suicide is WRONG and it certainly is NOT OUR RIGHT, But I can't find one verse to suggest that it isn't covered under the blood.

soldierandpixie,
I read Fr_Chuck differently than you do and I agree with him.
I do think that a person who commits suicide is not in their right mind at that time.
I have lost several good friends to suicide, some were high school buddies.
One was an incurable alcoholic.
One was out of him mind over a divorce.
All were very upset with something or other.
I have prayed for God's love and mercy for them them.
That is all that I could do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Until you are trying to kill yourself you will never understand the place you are in that makes you want to do that.
That's it!

artlady,
That is very likely so!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

.

If you think about it in God's eyes we sin everyday and don't even know it so how can we repent and confess every single sin.

.

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NOhelp4U, I think you are speaking of OT time frame, before Christ set us free from sin. And I trust daily prayer in the very words that Christ taught us to pray. This prayer can be heard by God, and we are forgiven as an answer to that prayer. (if we believe in fulness of Faith)

This is Why, from what Jesus told us about sin (John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)

What is that truth that we should know and set us free?


John 8:34-35 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Truth being HIS blood does abidth forever in the the house of God. It is there for your forgiveness.

So if we believe in Christ's blood and it's worthiness.. And we call upon our Father in prayer daily in hope of HIS Grace, we are forgiven.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Plus I trust individuals can go further into the fullness of faith when they are begotten again in the conformed image of Christ, and walk in the Spirit. That should be the true hope of every individual, to be all that God created them to be, and being conformed into the image of Christ and His righteousness.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:24-25 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

There is no walking double-minded. One day to walk in the spirit and the next hour to sin. Instead we follow the footsteps of Christ, walk in the spirit to the One Baptism of the Holy Spirit, that offers a good conscience toward God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by artlady

Until you are trying to kill yourself you will never understand the place you are in that makes you want to do that.
Thats it!

---

Agreed, for I have known several different individuals who have fallen in their weakness to suicide. One was a very sweet young girl, who experienced visual second evil person that scared her throughtout a day. These visions were terrible for her, and only someone having the same images of connection could fully understand her fear of life here on earth.

Another was a young man who fell in his own self-esteen. He jumped off a bridge to hang himself, and it left him in a coma and unconscious for 6 months before he died. The entire experience gave eye opening witness to his family and other influences that were connected to his life. They wondered if God was giving him time to change his mind, knowing that God gives no one more then they can bare. But they all felt God was in full controll of the final plug to pull.

And another old man who walked night after night, in the middle of the road, drunk in the dark. Everyone felt when his final walk was ended, a car unaware of his present hit him. What sorrow is left for those who were involved, and felt they had no controll to help him. Was this not in God hands who will permit an end to evilness?

We really can't know all the answers or judge any individuals path in life. God's hand of power and strength is there to call upon. (FAITH)

sndbay,
Yes we are to confess our sins that we are sinners.
If we sin and don't know it confessing that we are sinners I think covers that.
When I pray I ask God to forgive my sins AS I forgive others and I do forgive everyone who has sinned against me by though word and deed whether I know about it or not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
Yes we are to confess our sins that we are sinners.
If we sin and don't know it confessing that we are sinners I think covers that.
When I pray I ask God to forgive my sins AS i forgive others and I do forgive everyone who has sinned against me by though word and deed whether I know about it or not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Yes Fred, man that walks this earth are sinners, and those who have no FAITH remain under the law of sin. They are unable to justify themselves.
But those who hold stedfast to ONE FAITH, and confess the begotten Son of God as ONE LORD, To follow HIS footsteps and surrender their ways to do the WILL of GOD. They walk in the in the Spirit, and are conformed to HIS image of righteousness. (Romans 8:28) They are the new man or new creature (Col 3: 10 Eph 4:24 2 Cr 5:17) They are washed of their old conscience in ONE BAPTISM to have a good conscience toward God.

We are not only to forgive others who sin against us, but we are to cover over the sins of other who sin against us. That means we can't talk of them likewise in gossip or judge them. God's grace is for all man to be clean, and forgiven. Look to heap coals upon their heads, which would be a fresh start of a new day in warmth and feeding. (Pro 25:22 Romans 12:20)

This is off the thread concerning suicide

sndbay
We are not clean unless our sin are forgiven and we must confess them as sinners.
There is not a week or less that goes by in which we have sinned in some way.
Those sins must be dealt with.
They are NOT automatically forgiven when we do them.
Do you think that a person who murders another person is automatically forgiven.
I surely hope not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay
We are not clean unless our sin are forgiven and we must confess them as sinners.
There is not a week or less that goes by in which we have sinned in some way.
Those sins must be dealt with.
They are NOT automatically forgiven when we do them.
Do you think that a person who murders another person is automatically forgiven.
I surely hope not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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POSTED #70

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

I trust daily prayer in the very words that Christ taught us to pray. This prayer can be heard by God, and we are forgiven as an answer to that prayer. (if we believe in fulness of Faith)


Truth being HIS blood does abidth forever in the the house of God. It is there for your forgiveness.

So if we believe in Christ's blood and it's worthiness.. And we call upon our Father in prayer daily in hope of HIS Grace, we are forgiven.

---

ATTN:Fred Ask yourself, Do we believed we can be conformed to Christ image of righteousness by walking in the spirit? OFF Thread..

Snd,

I'm confused as to what you are saying. Are you saying that you no longer sin? I will agree that our new nature, the one that is conformed to the image of Christ CANNOT sin... unfortunately we live with the OLD nature too. While I try to die daily to it... the OLD man rears its ugly head from time to time. If we say we have no sin... we decieve ourselves!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

Snd,

I'm confused as to what you are saying. Are you saying that you no longer sin? I will agree that our new nature, the one that is conformed to the image of Christ CANNOT sin....unfortunately we live with the OLD nature too. While I try to die daily to it...the OLD man rears its ugly head from time to time. If we say we have no sin...we decieve ourselves!

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ClassyT,

This question that you ask is what we are discussing on another thread. When we Walk in the Spirit rather then in our flesh.

The book of 1 Peter speaks about being born again or begotten again. The soul is purified in obeying the truth through the Spirit, And the book of (Romans 8:29-30 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. )

God quicken your mortal body by HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you. This is the adoption in being a child of God. (Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. )

What we follow is the Law of Liberty, because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. )

Please join us on the other thread..Having the Sppirit of Christ Jesus

sndbay,
I, a sinner, try to walk with Jesus Christ as His immediate followers did and they were all sinners.
I hope that you get my point.
I believe that Jesus forgives me AS I forgive others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I do understand what you are speaking Fred.

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


Awareness

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

sndbay,
Thanks
Fred