Ask Me Help Desk - I'm looking for a Clarification

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tom, stop hijacking the thread.

Stop posting attacks on others.

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Now can we get back on topic please?

Please do

Once again, I will answer with the fact that we can argue ALL our lives, and still not be any closer to a real answer, nor an understanding of each other. So why do we even TRY to have these conversations?

Seriously, if people can't be polite, and accepting and understanding of other peoples opinions and beliefs on this board, STAY OUT OF IT>

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Originally Posted by jenniepepsi

once again, i will answer with the fact that we can argue ALL our lives, and still not be any closer to a real answer, nor an understanding of eachother. so why do we even TRY to have these conversations?

seriously, if people can't be polite, and accepting and understanding of other peoples opinions and beliefs on this board, STAY OUT OF IT>

Agreed that people should respect opinions of others, and be respectful and polite.

We should not insist that people "accept" the beliefs of others. That by definition would not be respecting their right to hold differing opinions.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We've been through that before. There is overwhelming evidence that it is in fact the word of God, but I guess that I would ask why, if you so dislike Christianity, do you post in the Christianity area (no answer required - rhetorical question).

"It is in fact ONE'S INTERPRETATION OF the Word of God." And anyone may post on the Christianity board.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

"It is in fact ONE'S INTERPRETATION OF the Word of God." And anyone may post on the Christianity board.

1) Actually, no. I don't know if you missed what was being discussed, but it whether there is evidence for the truth of the Bible being God's word. Such evidence from from internal sources, external sources, from Christians, from non-believers, and from those opposed to Christianity. So no, it is not a matter of interpretation.

2) Second, yes, anyone may post - I was just pondering why a person who hates Christianity would want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

1) Actually, no. I don't know if you missed what was being discussed, but it whether there is evidence for the truth of the Bible being God's word. Such evidence from from internal sources, external sources, from Christians, from non-believers, and from those opposed to Christianity. So no, it is not a matter of interpretation.

So where do those people get their information, and how?

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2) I was just pondering why a person who hates Christianity would want to.

She doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

So where do those people get their information, and how?

You need to study the historic record, ancient documents, speak to historians and archeologists, and to experts in the Bible.

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She doesn't.

Right. :D :p

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You need to study the historic record, ancient documents, speak to historians and archeologists, and to experts in the Bible.

Oh, those guys. Ok. Sure.

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Right.

And you are doing what to change her mind?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Oh, those guys. Ok. Sure.

Right - experts.

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And you are doing what to change her mind?

I am not trying to change her mind. I don't try to change anyone's mind. All I can do is present the facts. Whether one's mind is changed depends more upon whether they are open to the facts or not.

BTW, it appears that you are following her lead in hijacking the thread.

Shall we get back on topic?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

What do Christians consider sin though?

My son threw a rock at a window when he was 6, he knew it was wrong, he knew he shouldn't do it, he did it anyway. Does that mean he's now accountable in God's eyes?

I don't buy it.

This is the problem I have with the bible. If it really was the book of God then wouldn't these things be clear? Instead we're left to interpret what the book means. We all know what happens when you interpret something, it becomes flawed, because man is flawed.

There is not clear writing on when a child is no longer free from sin. There is no age when we say, okay, you now know right from wrong, now you either accept God, follow his way or you're going to hell.

Is it left up to us to determine? I thought the bible told us everything, every aspect of how to live our lives and find eternity with him. This seems to be a grey area.

You as your son's mother,how did you feel about your son throwing a rock at a window?
Deffinetely it did not make you happy,BUT did you throw your son out of your house because he did so?Of course not!
We are humans and we have at least this kind of righteousness even though we all are twisted in our ways.Don't you think our Father has at least this amount of righteousness also?
Things that we do not see in the Bible are written in nature.Isn't nature teaching us as Paul said?
We should be careful with the Bible because many times we idolize the Word of God and God hates it!
God's Word, the Bible is Spirit and not paper and ink!

adam7gur,
Good answer.
Fred

homesell, please stop spamming the board. Thank you.

Well, I think we should welcome anyone to answer as long as they state up front they are NOT Christian. However I could be wrong.

I don't have issues with this personally. I DO have issues with Hijackers and troublemakers but I like other views. I think it is an opportunity to witness.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Well, I think we should welcome anyone to answer as long as they state up front they are NOT Christian. However I could be wrong.

I don't have issues with this personally. I DO have issues with Hijackers and troublemakers but I like other views. I think it is an opportunity to witness.

Agreed. I would personally welcome anyone of any belief, but I think that they if come to the Christianity forums, they must at least be respectful of Christians. If they come on here because they hate Christians and or Christianity and are just here to disrupt the threads, then they'd be best to go elsewhere, because those who behave in that manner are not listening to what is being said, and they impair the rights of others to engage in the discussion.

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Originally Posted by DrJizzle

This same question has to be applied to more than just one-week old babies. What about the indigenous people of southern Africa?

Yes, yes.. missionaries have been sent out there to spread the Word but that wasn't always the case. There have been millions that have lived their entire life without ever having the chance to hear about Jesus Christ. They have certainly sinned but are likely better people than you or I.

Do they go to Hell?

Rom 1:20-21
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(KJV)

All creation points to the Creator, and mankind has a mind that is capable of reasoning. If he will use that capability, it will lead him to God.

After all, how did Abraham come to know God? He lived in an idolaterous society, and yet he became the "father of the faithful".

I have a counter question for Athos.

Are you trying to justify your own unbelief by posing what you see as an unanswerable question?

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Originally Posted by galveston

Rom 1:20-21
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(KJV)

All creation points to the Creator, and mankind has a mind that is capable of reasoning. If he will use that capability, it will lead him to God.

After all, how did Abraham come to know God? He lived in an idolaterous society, and yet he became the "father of the faithful".

I know many people who believe in the same God that you do based on that one line right there. However, since they don't believe in Him the same way a "Christian" does, they are damned?

Luckily Abraham lived in the time that he did... because of that, he is saved. Had he lived in today's world, he may still follow the beliefs of his ancestors that the Messiah is yet to come and would not be saved.

Same God of all creation... yet a different eternal life.

[side note]
I don't think anyone's personal beliefs should have ANYTHING to do with where or how they post. That is simply absurd.
[/side note]

Wait no there's more... I should add the anyone coming here attempting to pose something as FACT, should back that up with indisputable proof that such a thing is FACT. For example, despite what my beliefs, your beliefs, or ANYONE'S beliefs are, there simply is no PROOF that the Bible is the Word of God. To claim such a thing, discredits anything else you have to say.

Enough with the childish antics and finger pointing. Can we carry on with a mature discussion on this matter? Unfortunately, unlike other areas of this board, there is no simple answer. It requires discussion to allow people reading/responding to decide for themselves.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

You as your son's mother,how did you feel about your son throwing a rock at a window?
Deffinetely it did not make you happy,BUT did you throw your son out of your house because he did so?Of course not!
We are humans and we have at least this kind of righteousness even though we all are twisted in our ways.Don't you think our Father has at least this amount of righteousness also?
Things that we do not see in the Bible are written in nature.Isn't nature teaching us as Paul said?
We should be carefull with the Bible because many times we idolize the Word of God and God hates it!
God's Word, the Bible is Spirit and not paper and ink!

Well in that case God doesn't need us to come to him, because we're all his children and no matter what we do he would never deny us the gift of heaven.

You're right. There's nothing that my son could do that would make me abandon him, even if he turned his back on me. So using your theory, all people will go to heaven, whether they are Christian or not.

I couldn't agree more. :)

John 14:1
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
(KJV)
Jesus was talking to Jews who believed in God

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(KJV)

Mere belief in God is no better than the devils do.

I Jn 5:10
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
(KJV)

Gal 3:24
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(KJV)

Study of the Law given in the OT will bring one to the knowlege of Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

There's nothing that my son could do that would make me abandon him, even if he turned his back on me. So using your theory, all people will go to heaven, whether they are Christian or not.

So, if your son was an adult, and you wanted him to move in with you, ylou'd force him to do so whether he wanted to or not?

Go never abandoned us. He came to earth in the flesh so that we could be saved from our sins, and that we would have the opportunity to spend eternity with Him. But most will reject that offer and choose to go to hell, thus condemning themselves. He makes a free offer, but does not force us against our will.

Unfortunately the minority go to heaven.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Well in that case God doesn't need us to come to him, because we're all his children and no matter what we do he would never deny us the gift of heaven.

We don't come to Him; He comes to us, after finding us like a shepherd finds the lost sheep and gently carries it back to the herd.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Unfortunately the minority go to heaven.

Yes, "unfortunately" is right. Some unfortunately think that. And I'll bet you count yourself in that "minority."

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So, if your son was an adult, and you wanted him to move in with you, ylou'd force him to do so whether he wanted to or not?

That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously. Why would want to force him to live at home?? What analogy are you trying to make with that?

John 8:43-45
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
(KJV)

Jesus was talking to men, human beings, and he most certainly did NOT consider them to be Heaven bound.

They made the wrong choice and went to Hell. Please make sure you do not do the same thing.

I'm simply pointing out that just because we are humans does not automatically mean we are children of God. See verse below.

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(KJV)

We are not born sons of God, we become sons of God through grace by faith.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(KJV)

(Off thread, I know, but the OP has gotten several outstanding answers so far.)

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously.

There's the story of the prodigal son...

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes, "unfortunately" is right. Some unfortunately think that. And I'll bet you count yourself in that "minority."

Right the minority think that, and that is because God said it is true:

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
NKJV

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously. Why would want to force him to live at home??? What analogy are you trying to make with that?

No, it is exactly the right analogy because all men have rejected God by sinning (Rom 3:23), and God calls them to return, desires that they return and God paid the price for their sins so that the way is open for their return. Whether they do is up to them. God does not force us to come, and thus most will not come. For all to be saved would require that God force us against our will to be saved.

So, for everyone to be saved, the analogy would be that she would force her son to live with her using whatever means at her disposal if the son did not wish to.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

God desires that they pay the price for their sins

Huh?

Forget the Prodigal Son story then, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Huh?

Forget the Prodigal Son story then, I guess.

Perhaps you should read the prodigal son story again. Show me where the father sent the police out to drag the son home and force him to stay home.

I missed that.

Seems to me that he decided to return.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Perhaps you should read the prodigal son story again. Show me where the father sent the police out to drag the son home and force him to stay home.

I missed that.

Seems to me that he decided to return.

No, I wasn't referring to that. My point was your comment --

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Originally Posted by Tj3

God desires that they pay the price for their sins

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

We don't come to Him; He comes to us, after finding us like a shepherd finds the lost sheep and gently carries it back to the herd.

Then you don't agree with this passage?

Acts 15:17
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.'
NKJV

I can't imagine this thread will live to see another day...

I stand by what my posts says

No, it is exactly the right analogy because all men have rejected God by sinning (Rom 3:23), and God calls them to return, desires that they return and God paid the price for their sins so that the way is open for their return. Whether they do is up to them. God does not force us to come, and thus most will not come. For all to be saved would require that God force us against our will to be saved.

So, for everyone to be saved, the analogy would be that she would force her son to live with her using whatever means at her disposal if the son did not wish to.

Apparently, there are at least two ways of thinking about infant baptism -- 1) God has commanded that even babies are to be baptised because He will send His Spirit to work faith in a baby's heart, and 2) people should not be baptised until they intellectually understand what baptism is.

The difference seems to limit God, that He cannot work faith in a baby's heart but must wait until it is cognitively ready.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Apparently, there are at least two ways of thinking about infant baptism -- 1) God has commanded that even babies are to be baptised because He will send His Spirit to work faith in a baby's heart,

Where do you get that God commanded that babies are to be baptised? Baby baptism is more of an aknowledgment of THEIR statement that THEY will raise the baby to follow God to the best of their ability. More like people that dedicate their baby instead of baptising.
The baby still has to get baptised for their own sign of their outward aknowledgment of God once they get to be old enough to accept God. So basically a baby being baptized is not a commandment. It is more of a ritual.
How does a baby have faith worked in its heart?

As they grow older through the years they either except or reject God so the faith is there or it isn't. Yeah God can work faith into their heart but it isn't based on whether the parents baptised the baby. Baby baptism is more for affirmation to the parents of their intent to raise the child godly.

I have never said, nor do I believe that anyone but Jesus pays the price for sins.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

where do you get that God commanded that babies are to be baptised?

"Go ye therefore...baptize all nations." (Babies are part of "all nations.")

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How does a baby have faith worked in its heart?

The Holy Spirit comes along and begins the process of working faith.

Hmmm, I've never been rebaptized as an adult. Am I going to hell?

Most mainstream Christian churches do infant baptisms and accept each other's baptisms, so the person doesn't have to be rebapized if a different church is joined.

Why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.

I don't think not getting baptised sends you to hell so no I don't think that would be what would send you to hell if you were to end up there. The thief on the cross was never baptised.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.

My baptism as an infant is sufficient.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.

Good point.

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I don't think not getting baptised sends you to hell so no I don't think that would be what would send you to hell if you were to end up there. The thief on the cross was never baptised.

Agreed. There is nothing in scripture which requires that you to be saved. We are commended to be baptized as adults, so it is an act of obedience, but there is nothing telling us that babies are to be baptized. There is nothing wrong with doing so, but it will not affect the baby's salvation, nor does it count as believer's baptism.