Ask Me Help Desk - Do all paths eventually lead to God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Yes that is exactly what we are trying to say. The Bible says the truth will set you free and when you have been set free YOU KNOW.

This is what we all are trying to say here.. the Truth WILL set you free. And when you have the Truth, you WILL know.

The Truth that runs through my veins is the same Truth that runs through yours.

... But many are deceived or do not care to have the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

......But many are deceived or do not care to have the truth.

"Christians" and non-Christians alike...

Yep, many sit in the pew week after week thinking they are pleasing God because they fill the pew on Sunday.

Matt 7
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

There are those who never heard and is sad and it is up to those of us who know the gospel to get the word out, but what is sadder is those who have heard the gospel, like those living in North America, including those on this board who still reject the gospel.

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I did not interpret it. I have a copy of the Greek check it out.

Having a copy of "the Greek" or any other copy does NOT mean you did not interpret it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

The millions who died before Christ were under the OLD Testament law so that doesn't apply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

The Bible has everything.

Prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

Prove it.

Where do you want him to start that could take pages and pages

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakester

Athos - your objections are well taken. Anything is possible, but the bible is the only source document that is used to refer to anything Jesus said. You mentioned that he is the author of the Beatitudes but how you do know he really said the things contained there? Logically, if you could argue that the other sections of the bible attributed to things he said were really false, then how do we know that the Beatitudes were attributed to Jesus? I think a lot of our disagreement relating to what we think he said or did not say stems from our own perception of reality and what makes sense according to our worldview. If our worldview is one where there is no judgment for evil and no punishment, then the sections of the bible where Jesus is credited for saying that people will die in their sins or be punished for unbelief will not be attributed to him. We can pick and choose what we will but we have to see that our worldviews often influence what we want to see.

Now, when you refer to the sect that executed those who didn't believe, I'm assuming you are referring to the Crusades. I don't believe Jesus taught that it was right to execute those who didn't believe. He did teach that those who refused to believe in him would perish in their unbelief but that was a matter to be settled between the individual and God...not between me and the unbeliever. God said "vengeance in mine, I will repay." So, I ought to let people be free to be unbelieving or believing and worry about myself. God, in the end, will sort people out.

I hope I addressed each of your points in turn. Let me know if I missed anything.

Sincerely.

I can't prove that Jesus said the Beatitudes. I never claimed to prove it. I was comparing the sense of those ideas with other ideas attributed to Jesus.

I wasn't referring to the Crusades (no one was executed during the Crusades because they were non-believers). I was referring to the time shortly after Christianity became the state religion and heresy was defined as a capital offense.

Yes, you pretty much missed my entire point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Not possible. The NT was written by disciples. It was all written within a few decades of Jesus' death and resurrection. That is well established.

How could it possibly be "well established" when the earliest extant copies we have date from several centuries after the events?

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

The millions who died before Christ were under the OLD Testament law so that doesn't apply.

Huh? What is THAT supposed to mean?

It means your question isn't valid. How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?
They did not have to believe in Jesus because they had the Old Testament law to follow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Where do you want him to start that could take pages and pages

He made the statement. It's up to him to prove it. How he does it is his business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

So, your saying that Matthew was written later than AD70? Or that Mark was written after AD140/ Or that Luke was written long afterAD 60? Hummm. Please tell us where you get this information. Because my bible clearly indicates differently.

Exactly where does your Bible prove the dates you claimed? Do you understand that the earliest copies we have date from the 4th century?

Yeah he made the statement.
So you are saying it is up to him to prove EVERYTHING so with your statement how he does it is his business means that however he chooses to prove EVERYTHING you will be okay with because it is his business?

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

It means your question isn't valid. How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?
They did not have to believe in Jesus because they had the Old Testament law to follow.

All you have done is change the premise. How did those who never heard of the Old Testament make out? Say, the millions of Chinese or American Indians or any other group that lived before Jesus?

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

yeah he made the statement.
So you are saying it is up to him to prove EVERYTHING so with your statement how he does it is his business means that however he chooses to prove EVERYTHING you will be okay with because it is his business?

What I am saying is pretty clear, I think. I certainly will not be OK with anything he claims because "it is his business". I don't know where you got that idea from.

Like any position, it is incumbent upon him to offer his reasons supporting his position. Then we'll take a look at what he offers. Simple as that. Don't make it unnecessarily confusing. It's pretty simple.

The Bible says that they were in a waiting place, a part of Hades, and before the resurrection Jesus set then free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

The Bible says that they were in a waiting place, a part of Hades, and before the resurrection Jesus set then free.

To begin at the beginning - this part of the thread is about proving the Bible. You cannot prove the Bible by quoting the Bible. First, it was necessary to believe in Jesus - I am the way, etc etc - remember that? Now, recognizing the impossibility of people believing in Jesus who died before Jesus, you come up with another story. Does it never end? Will you come up with something no matter what I ask?

The OP's question is not about proving the Bible. Maybe you should start your own question because your objections are taking the OP's post way off what she asked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

The OP's question is not about proving the Bible. Maybe you should start your own question because your objections are taking the OP's post way off what she asked.

They became off-thread because of the way you and yours took the thread. Don't blame me for responding to what you claimed. Maybe the fault is yours!

I am not blaming you I am simply saying that I think if you want answers it is about time we started a new thread and you are the one with the question.
Not trying to place any blame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

To begin at the beginning - this part of the thread is about proving the Bible. You cannot prove the Bible by quoting the Bible. First, it was necessary to believe in Jesus - I am the way, etc etc - remember that? Now, recognizing the impossibility of people believing in Jesus who died before Jesus, you come up with another story. Does it never end? Will you come up with something no matter what I ask?

Athos,

Those old testament saints are all covered under the blood of Christ. The sacrifices of animals just covered them. They knew NOTHING of the Lord Jesus... and yet he certainly was promised in Genesis 3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I am not blaming you I am simply saying that I think if you want answers it is about time we started a new thread and you are the one with the question.
Not trying to place any blame.

I never had a question. I responded to the op. Look back and see. Any questions that developed were in response to statements made by others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Athos,

Those old testament saints are all covered under the blood of Christ. The sacrifices of animals just covered them. They knew NOTHING of the Lord Jesus...and yet he certainly was promised in Genesis 3.

Again, when you make statements like that, it is the most ordinary thing in the world for one to ask - what proof do you have for that?

You started this thread about different paths, and clearly indicated that you thought they were false. Why are you surprised that someone should ask you - Why are they false? That leads to subsequent questions about YOUR claims.

And now you have spent three posts trying to defend your comments. It is off topic. Lets get back on or moderator please close it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

I never had a question. I responded to the op. Look back and see. Any questions that developed were in response to statements made by others.

Oh I thought these were questions you were wanting answered and I thought that you were basically asking Tj3 to prove everything

How could it possibly be "well established" when the earliest extant copies we have date from several centuries after the events?

How do you get the word out to the millions who died before Christ was born?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

They became off-thread because of the way you and yours took the thread. Don't blame me for responding to what you claimed. Maybe the fault is yours!

Athos,

You know I tend to get heated sometimes when I am trying to make a point. I guess I did last night. I believe that no one can prove anything... and I believe it is all about faith pure and simple. I mean I think there I compelling evidence but I can't prove it. I don't think anyone can. The Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God because anyone that comes to him must believe that he IS and is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. So it is all about faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

And now you have spent three posts trying to defend your comments. It is off topic. Lets get back on or moderator please close it.

If you're referring to me, I'd be happy to get back on topic. I wasn't the one who left it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Athos,

You know i tend to get heated sometimes when i am trying to make a point. I guess i did last nite. I believe that no one can prove anything...and I believe it is all about faith pure and simple. I mean i think there i compelling evidence but i can't prove it. I don't think anyone can. The Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God because anyone that comes to him must believe that he IS and is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. so it is all about faith.

The first honest response all night (thread). Thank you.

As I have tried to make perfectly clear, I have no objection to people expressing their faith. It is when they insist it is the only truth, without a scintilla of evidence, that I simply ask for proof. When they say there is no "proof", it's just what I believe, I respect that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

The Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God because anyone that comes to him must believe that he IS and is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. so it is all about faith.

Anyone that comes to Him must believe that He IS. Its all about Faith.

Unless, of course, you believe that other paths may also lead to God... in which case, you are accursed.

This is where Faith ends and Religion begins.

Religion and the Church is what brought about these teaching of fear. It has taken away from the Truths that God has been showing/teaching us who choose to listen since before even the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

Again, when you make statements like that, it is the most ordinary thing in the world for one to ask - what proof do you have for that?

You started this thread about different paths, and clearly indicated that you thought they were false. Why are you surprised that someone should ask you - Why are they false? That leads to subsequent questions about YOUR claims.

I can't prove a thing... but I do believe the Bible and that is where I get my info. I debated putting the question on a religious discussion but truth is... I think I wanted to hear from fellow Christians because I think we are sooo divided. I know other faiths believe there are other paths to God. What I am troubled by... is what my fellow Christians are saying. I fear I am offending people again which is NOT my motive.

You are right in a sense. The only truth is what we believe in our hearts as the infallible word of God but then that is not the truth of non believers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

You are right in a sense. the only truth is what we believe in our hearts as the infallible word of God but then that is not the truth of non believers.

You got it!

And non-believers to other religions are Christians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrJizzle

Anyone that comes to Him must believe that He IS. Its all about Faith.

Unless, of course, you believe that other paths may also lead to God... in which case, you are accursed.

This is where Faith ends and Religion begins.

Religion and the Church is what brought about these teaching of fear. It has taken away from the Truths that God has been showing/teaching us who choose to listen since before even the Bible.

Dr. D,

For me it isn't about fear. It is all about trust and faith. Geesh, if I didn't have the Lord to rely on everyday about everything... I would be in fear.

I'm confused by you. I'm not sure of your point. Do you believe all paths evidentually lead to God?

Non believers to other religions are Christians
And the question Classy is asking is why do many Christians believe that non believers that do not believe in Christ are going to heaven when they do not believe in Jesus or follow his teachings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Non believers to other religions are Christians
and the question Classy is asking is why do many Christians believe that non believers that do not believe in Christ are going to heaven when they do not believe in Jesus or follow his teachings.

THAT is it. I don't understand why Christians think there is another way to the Father other that the Lord Jesus.

And to answer Classy's original question, there is only one path to GOD. No one can honestly say that satan worship will lead to God can they? Or how about those that worship money? (those that seek wealth over everything else) Or the earth?(earth firsters) Or the anything that does not directly speak to God.
It takes an act of faith to believe in God. Without it there is nothing for man to believe in except materialism, or themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

THAT is it. I don't understand why Christians think there is another way to the Father other that the Lord Jesus.

It's very simple. Many Christians have a more profound understanding of Christianity than Fundamentalists. It's really as simple as that. They don't limit God to their own beliefs. Good night, all.