1 Cr 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The importance of the scripture offered in reference, is for several reasons. #1 we have to recognized who were all were baptized. #2 we can recognized what was called spiritual meat, and #3 we can recognized spiritual drink. Then #4 we can recognize that spiritual Rock is Christ.
***********************************

Question your thoughts: How can we answer the call to salvation without trust in the Three in "ONE"...
Eph 4:4-5-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Don't think for a minute you can raise as Christ raised without being Baptism in Christ, buried and dead to this world, and able to be adopted as a child of God. Division of the three would be against what is writtten.
*******************************

Question your thoughts: How can we drink of the spiritual blood that is Christ?
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

1 Cr 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The spiritual drink that we are to remember is the blood of Christ, drinking of the new testament.
*************************************

Question your thoughts: How can we eat of the spiritual bread of life, not like the manna that feeds the hungry flesh?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

THE WORD MADE FLESH!

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:57-58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Recognize the spiritual Rock, and spiritual meat that followed Moses. Scripture tells us the same Christ, the Word that was made flesh and dwelled with us followed Moses. They too ate and drank of the spiritual Rock, and too they were baptized. Do not separate or divide One Lord, One Baptism, One Faith in "ONE GOD"

~in Christ

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
SO you still insist on a false idea that The Church did not become The Church until centuries later.

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No, The Church was created by Christ. The Roman Catholic Denomination did not exist until centuries later.

Please do not misrepresent what I said.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

And in which of the 72 books of the bible does it say that it was written down "so that man couuld not corrupt it".

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The Bible only has 66 books. There are several places where we are told not to corrupt the word of God (Prov 30:5-6, Rev 22:18 being two), and 1 Cor 4:6 tells us not to go beyond what is written.

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And which of the 72 books of the bible did Christ say, "and so it was said, so let it be written"? I don't remember that part.

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Stick with me, you'll learn a lot! :)

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I know that the Catholic Church was born when Christ said, "Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church," (Matt 15:17-18)

In english, doesn't Christ say I WILL and UPON THIS ROCK and BUILD MY CHURCH?

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Anyone reading it clearly in English or in the original Greek will see that the Rock (which throughout scripture refers to God) is the declaration that Peter made:

Matt 16:15-18
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
NKJV

Peter is called a stone and this declaration is the Rock, because it is about Christ and Christ in the Rock. Paul confirms it when he sayud that the church cannot have a foundation other than Christ:

1 Cor 3:10-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

So any church with a man as it's foundation is not the Church that Christ built. Lastly, Christ built a body of believers as the church, not a manmade denomination.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Boy, John 6 really irks you. Why don't you remove it from the bible along with James?

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John 6 does not irk me - why should it?

What does irk me is people taking a verse out of context to make it say the opposite of what it actually says.

Like this one:

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What is it about, "eat this, this is my body" and "drink this, this is my blood" that you don't under stand. (Cf. Matt 26:26-27)

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In context it reads:

Matt 26:26-30
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." 30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
NKJV

Well, here since the sacrifice on the cross had not yet occurred, and since Jesus was sitting there in His whole body, it was clear that this was not the blood shed on the cross, and then in the next verse, Jesus says that it is the fruit of the vine, which is wine.

Why some folk insist on taking verses out of context, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Question your thoughts[/B]: How can we answer the call to salvation without trust in the Three in "ONE"...
Eph 4:4-5-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Don't think for a minute you can raise as Christ raised without being Baptism in Christ, buried and dead to this world, and able to be adopted as a child of God. Division of the three would be against what is writtten.

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The question is, what is the "One Baptism" which is essential? The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given to all who believe, whether they are baptized in water or not? Or water?

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

I did not say that tradition is out of the question.All I said is that tradition that is not in agreement with the Word should not be taken as God's will! Jesus said that he who is not against us is with us.
It takes two witnesses to testify the word so that the word becomes certain.Tradition should be backed up somehow by the Word, I think it is clear that every word that is against the Word somehow, is not God's!
Again I am not saying that we should forget everything else and just focus and study the Bible, but I am saying examine every word, every tradition if it is God's or not!

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I agree, and we can see many traditions today that have been brought forth by man, that are indeed against what is written. Each holiday for example has paganism orgin.
The celebration of the feast of Passover.. Christ is our Passover, the paschal lamb..

Man's tradition has brought this celebration to us as their oral tradition of Easter.. (orgin as a paganism feast)

(1 Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.)

Unleaved bread would be Christ, the bread of life without sin and corruption.


Jesus warned of the leaven in man's doctrine. That which can raise up being in corruption.

Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The first church that began the division in what was the Word of God. Do the traditions of man cause division in religions, and faith today?

How many churches today baptize as written in the Word that is the flesh of Christ?The inspired Word of the Holy Spirit. The Word that is the Spiritual Truth of God?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The question is, what is the "One Baptism" which is essential? The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given to all who believe, whether they are baptized in water or not? or water?

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Christ commanded that his disciples baptize.. Christ fulfilled what was required in following HIM. Baptism to follow, and be raised as He was raised...

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It was water that Christ was baptized in.. It was the red sea that Mose and his people passed through... (Hebrew 10:22) speaks of pure water....

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Christ commanded that his disciples baptize.. Christ fulfilled what was required in following HIM. Baptism to follow, and be raised as He was raised...

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Yep, we are to be baptized in water. There are many other things that we are commanded to do - are you saying that everything we are commanded to do is essential for salvation? If so then I trust that you know that would mean that we would all be destined for hell since no one has obeyed the law perfectly.

The fact is that we are told that it is essential to believe in Jesus to be saved. Nowhere are we told that water baptism is essential to be saved, and in fact we have a case in Acts 10 where we see people saved before water baptism.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Peter is called a stone and this declaration is the Rock, because it is about Christ and Christ in the Rock. Paul confirms it when he sayud that the church cannot have a foundation other than Christ:

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Tom, there are a few details that are obvious to what was said concerning the rock that Christ mentioned. If you look up Peter's name you can see that it means a rock or a stone. The meaning of a name is given at birth by hertiage from the family. Peter would be expected to live according to that name. Certainly more respected then Jazeb which means sorrow, and was named that because of his mother's sorrow. However a stone or rock is solid and metaph. of a soul hard and unyeilding...

The truth is, that Christ is the Rock of salvation, and the spiritual Rock we stand upon stedfast. Christ is the Rock of glory..


This is the obvious proof
It is written and spoken by Christ concerning Peter. (John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.)

Then anyone can read (1 Corinthians 3:21-22-23) to hear scripture say that no man is to glory in man.. it then names such men not to glory in ..

1 Cr 3:21-23 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


The pride of satan's work is known by God

This was written because For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
3:19-20 KJV

`in Christ

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Tom, there are a few details that are obvious to what was said concerning the rock that Christ mentioned. If you look up Peter's name you can see that it means a rock or a stone.

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Actually it means a piece of a rock or a stone - and a piece chipped off a rock is a stone.

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The truth is, that Christ is the Rock of salvation, and the spiritual Rock we stand upon stedfast. Christ is the Rock of glory..

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Absolutely right.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Yep, we are to be baptized in water. There are many other things that we are commanded to do - are you saying that everything we are commanded to do is essential for salvation? If so then I trust that you know that would mean that we would all be destined for hell since no one has obeyed the law perfectly.

The fact is that we are told that it is essential to believe in Jesus to be saved. Nowhere are we told that water baptism is essential to be saved, and in fact we have a case in Acts 10 where we see people saved before water baptism.

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Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

***************

New creature has strength in Christ Jesus :
2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Christ dwells within and strength us to avail over satan.
Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


The body of new creature, divine nature (refer:2 Pet. 1:4) born of the spirit will go to the right side of the boat... (my own metaph speaking)

1 John 2:5-6 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~in Christ

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

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I snipped the rest for brevity... none of those passages said that baptism in water is essential for salvation.

You guys are hilarious. For nearly 2,000 years ‘Peter’ meant ‘rock’. It meant ‘rock’ from when Christ spoke it till…well, until Scriptures ran into you two wondrous scholars. And now the two of you proclaim ‘Peter’ to be a stone, a pebble, a chip of sandstone, what marvels of scholastic crawfish’en can we expect next? And if Peter were a pebble, then wouldn’t that make it all the more miraculous that Christ established his Universal Kingdom on a small insignificant pebble? Guys, just in case you haven’t heard, this pebble business has been debunked years ago by real scholars who understand the Greek and Aramaic of the day.

Certain beliefs and doctrines were handed to us by the Apostles and their successors. This we call Tradition. That Tradition was memorialized in sacred writings, a compendium of God’s revelation to mankind in 72 books. Authenticated teachings of Christ were bequeathed to posterity by the Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church. This is a continuation of God’s Divine laws held in the Tradition of Abram and Mosses; wherein Christ lived and fulfilled its tenets and prophecies.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

You guys are hilarious. For nearly 2,000 years 'Peter' meant 'rock'.

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Maybe in your circles (though I am not sure how you make the 2000 year claim - since scripture itself says that the meaning is "stone")

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

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Certain beliefs and doctrines were handed to us by the Apostles and their successors. This we call Tradition. That Tradition was memorialized in sacred writings, a compendium of God's revelation to mankind in 72 books. Authenticated teachings of Christ were bequeathed to posterity by the Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church. This is a continuation of God's Divine laws held in the Tradition of Abram and Mosses; wherein Christ lived and fulfilled its tenets and prophecies.

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The claim that your denominational traditions came from the Apostles is, in and of itself, a denominational traditional. Since the denomination came centuries later, it is a creation of men, and the traditions are creations of men.

As for the 6 books added by your denomination, many contradict scripture, and at least one denies divine inspiration.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

none of those passages said that baptism in water is essential for salvation.

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No they don't but each says I follow in Christ, doing the Will of God. God sustains us, and guides us, we are to listen to hear HIS voice.

Remember what was said to Job?


Job 37:14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.
Job 37:15-16 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
Job 37:21 And now men see not the bright light which is in the clouds: but the wind passeth, and cleanseth them

Do we fully understand all that God commands of us? Did the people understand their salvation washed over them in the water of the red sea, and baptized them?
(Exd 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.)

In doing the will of God we exalt His glory and praise. The water in baptism is like the well of salvation in newness of life. God is the well of our salvation in which we draw from. Baptism is what holds us together in good conscience with God and the HIS fire (Luke 12:50)

~in Christ

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Originally Posted by sndbay

No they don't but each says I follow in Christ, doing the Will of God. God sustains us, and guides us, we are to listen to hear HIS voice.

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Agreed. Even though baptism is not essential for salvation, it is something that all believers should do as an act of obedience and a testimony of what Christ has done in their lives.

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In doing the will of God we exalt His glory and praise. The water in baptism is like the well of salvation in newness of life. God is the well of our salvation in which we draw from. Baptism is what holds us together in good conscience with God and the HIS fire (Luke 12:50)

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I disagree. It is the word of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that unifies believers. Not water.

And Jesus came into the quarters of Cæsarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matt 16)

Setting the scene; Caesarea Phillippi is in the valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon as mentioned in Josh 11:17 or Baal Hemon as mentioned in Judg 3:3. Of particular interest is a land feature of a massive rock face. One of the tributaries for the Jordan River flows through the area. The area was liberated by the Maccabean revolt in 167 B.C. In 4 B.C. one of Herod the Great s three sons, Philip, built the Roman Grecian of Caesarea Philippi to honor the Roman emperor. You can imagine Jesus with this huge rock wall as a backdrop, asking twice (not once, but twice), “Whom to they say that I am?” No other disciples could give the answer but Simon. Simon confessed Jesus as being both the Messiah and the “Son of the Living God.” God had revealed to Simon what no other man on earth knew; Christ was the Second Person of the One Devine God.

Simon is used in English, French, Scandinavian, German, Hungarian, Slovene, Biblical Pronounced: SIE-mən (English), see-MAWN (French), ZEE-mawn (German) [key] From the Greek form of the Hebrew name שִׁמְעוֹן (Shim'on) which meant "he has heard". This was the name of several biblical characters, including the man who carried the cross for Jesus. However, the most important person of this name in the New Testament was the apostle Simon, also known as Peter (a name given to him by Jesus). Because of him, this name has been common in the Christian world. In England it was popular during the Middle Ages, though it became rarer after the Protestant Reformation. Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Simon

And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

There is a significance to the number of times “blessed art thou” is used in the New Testament. It's used only three times, twice in Luke 1: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women ...And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be; and once here in Matthew 16:17. It’s only used once by Jesus. (this holds true in the NKJV also) It no little significance that like the blessing bestowed Mary, God seats Peter in a special Chair for our salvation; the first of 266 whose “successor’s gives judgment,” St. Peter, St. Linus, St. Anacletus, St. Clement I, St. Alexander I, St. Sixtus I, St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus… Benedict XVI.

Are we to assume that Peter didn’t know of this? Are we to assume that this blessing made to Mary, the “handmaid” of God, would not in the same sense make Peter, the primary servant of Christ? And what significance are we to make of this blessing that came out of Christ’s own mouth? That this was just some utterance, a use of metaphors, a courteous remark? Would it not be safe to assume that who Christ blesses stays blessed? How does our eye pass so freely across the words “blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona” without stopping to wonder at the significance that's found nowhere else in the New Testament? Peter is the only one in history blessed by Christ himself? The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, we share that blessing. Peter was our first Vicar. By making ourselves “servants” of the Church, we in turn make ourselves, subjects of the Church whose head is the vicar (earthly representative) of Christ; and as such sharing in that one and only blessing uttered by Christ.

Because this was revealed to Peter by God, Christ calsl Peter a rock and on this Rock Christ built His church; hell won’t prevail against it, not even TJ.

And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

The “keys” are the keys to the kingdom of heaven, similar to the “keys” mentioned in Isaiah 22. With the transfer of the keys, one to another, power and authority is also transferred; Christ gives Peter the supreme authority over the Church and to bind and loose, both in heaven and on earth.

“In regard to the Petros Kepha argument made by some, the play of words involved in naming Simon “Rock” is as clear in Aramaic as in English, if we use the literal translation “Rock” for the Aramaic Kepha rather than “Peter” which is derived from the Greek Petros. In Greek the noun for rock is feminine. Therefore it is unsuitable for a man’s name, and Peter is named Petros while the precise word for rock is petra, making the meaning a little less clear. But Christ’s words to Peter were spoken in Aramaic and first recorded in Armaic in Matthew’s Gospel; furthermore, we know that Peter was later often called Kepha or Cephas as well as Petros.” “Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 349 footnote 135.


Insofar as I’m able to discern, based on the knowledge of those fluent in Greek and Latin, the differences between the KJV and the Douay-Rheims are not major. Only a few verses in the KJV give a different understanding. My reason for mentioning the Scriptural differences, as elsewhere in my responses, of cases referring to Christ as a Rock is related to his strength. Furthermore, when compared with a Rock it referrers to Christ’s founding of doctrinal precepts; as it where knowledge pouring forth baptismal waters from Christ’s strength refreshing the people of Israel, e.g. Exodus 17:5 And the Lord said to Moses: Go before the people, and take with thee of the ancients of Israel: and take in thy hand the rod wherewith thou didst strike the river, and go. 6 Behold I will stand there before thee, upon the rock Horeb, and thou shalt strike the rock, and water shall come out of it that the people may drink. This doctrinal foundation is shown in 1 Cor 3:11-12 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. NKJV

The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter. This was illustrated in a letter written by Pope Clement I (third in succession to Peter and had personally known Peter) to the Corinthians (circa) 95 AD claiming authority over Corinth. St. Irenaeus tells the second hand account from St. Polycarp where John was heard to say “the faithful wo are everywhere must agree with this Church (Rome) because of its more important principality.” During the Councils and Synods surrounding the early heresies the Popes decision settled the matter. This is illustrated in 431 AD. Where the Bishops responded to Pope Celestine’s decision, “He [Peter] lives even to this time, and always in his successor’s gives judgment.”

We Catholics find that "This is the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Savior, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (Jn. 21:17), commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it (cf. Matt. 28:18, etc.), and which he raised up for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines. Since these are gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, they are forces impelling towards Catholic unity." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Genitum, 8)

Like Sndbay I also think there is a significance in names. Seeing that Simon has the Hebrew meaning, “he has heard” with the surname meaning “dove”, which in most cultures nuances of peace, Matthew 16:17 takes a special significance. Christ calls the son of peace who has heard the son of the living God a rock. Peter is made the living foundation (or cornerstone if you prefer that metaphor) of the Church. Even the location can’t be discounted; Caesarea Philippi is a region that has a large rock outcrop that forms a cliff. Christ’s intent is clear and his words have faithfully survived in His Bride for 2,000 years.

But, where do you think “Protestantism” came from? Where did each of the 30,000 different Christian Denominations get their Scriptures, each insisting it has the one and only one authoritative interpretation? How do they recon Christ’s words, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ” (Cf. John 17). How then do you suppose those 30,000 interpret this, “I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven.” (Cf. John 6). How then would you suggest that those 30,000 different Churches are One Church as Christ prayed “that they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me.” (John 17:20)

It’s not just a little significant that the didactic narrative of Matthew 16:5 is a prelude; “And when his disciples were come over the water, they had forgotten to take bread. Who said to them: Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Matt 16:5). Christ reminds them of the two substances that give life, the waters of baptism and the bread of life (Cf. John 6:48); likewise crossing over these waters leads to leavened faith.


JoeT

It is of little value to go through everything in this detail, but I will add a few comments

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

In England it was popular during the Middle Ages, though it became rarer after the Protestant Reformation.

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If you think that Peter is an uncommon or less common name today, where are you living? Your source of this information is inaccurate at best.

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It no little significance that like the blessing bestowed Mary, God seats Peter in a special Chair for our salvation;

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Really? Where is this "special chair" mentioned in scripture?

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Peter was our first Vicar.

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Where is this in scripture?

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By making ourselves “servants” of the Church, we in turn make ourselves, subjects of the Church whose head is the vicar (earthly representative) of Christ; and as such sharing in that one and only blessing uttered by Christ.

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Vicar means substitute. Peter, according to this tradition (note: not scripture, but tradition) is a substitute for Christ.

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Because this was revealed to Peter by God, Christ calsl Peter a rock and on this Rock Christ built His church; hell won't prevail against it, not even TJ.

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Since scripture itself tells us that Peter was a stone, and Christ was the rock, and Paul says that Christ is the only true foundation of the church, this claim is false. Jesus did not found a denomination.

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The “keys” are the keys to the kingdom of heaven, similar to the “keys” mentioned in Isaiah 22. With the transfer of the keys, one to another, power and authority is also transferred; Christ gives Peter the supreme authority over the Church and to bind and loose, both in heaven and on earth.

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Jesus still has the keys in the book of Revelation. Those are not the keys given to Peter, nor did He give keys specifically to Peter.

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The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter.

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Exactly - a Roman Catholic denominational teaching, not scriptural.

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But, where do you think “Protestantism” came from? Where did each of the 30,000 different Christian Denominations get their Scriptures, each insisting it has the one and only one authoritative interpretation?

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I am not a protestant, but I can say from my knowledge and research into various protestant denominations that, although some are like the Roman catholic church in that they claim they alone have the only right interpretation, that is certainly not the case with most, nor is it true of most other non-Catholic churches whether they are protestant or not.

I find it sad that there are those who engage in denominationalism, who say that their denomination is the only right one. Paul spoke against that quite directly, because even back in the first century, there were those who claimed that the were under one or another of the Apostles (and yes, Peter was one mentioned specifically by Paul)

1 Cor 1:11-14
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
NKJV

There is nothing wrong with denominations, but when the denomination (any denomination) cease to be just a tool for us to use to evangelize and to encourage fellowship amongst believers, and changes to become the master, then we have a problem.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I find it sad that there are those who engage in denominationalism, who say that their denomination is the only right one. Paul spoke against that quite directly, because even back in the first century, there were those who claimed that the were under one or another of the Apostles (and yes, Peter was one mentioned specifically by Paul)

1 Cor 1:11-14
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
NKJV

There is nothing wrong with denominations, but when the denomination (any denomination) cease to be just a tool for us to use to evangelize and to encourage fellowship amongst believers, and changes to become the master, then we have a problem.

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That's correct, there is but one Church, the church you know as Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Jesus Christ. Christ didn't make subdivisions (denominations) of His Church.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

That's correct, there is but one Church, the church you know as Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Jesus Christ. Christ didn't make subdivisions (denominations) of His Church.

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Christ did not make subdivisions of His Church - right but what you seem to miss is that Christ's church is NOT a denomination, not Roman catholic, not Lutheran, not Baptist, though it is possible for members of Christ's body to be in any of the above.

Claiming that your denomination alone is right is a direct contradiction of God's word.

Joe and arcura, the same thing adam7gur has said that's what I was basically saying, but maybe didn't explain it clear enough. What good does tradition do when your not loving your fellow man or woman. The story of the clergyman who saw his neighbor laying on the ground and kept walking by because I guess he was going to the synagogue never stopped to help. Then a man passing by stopped, took him to a place like a hotel paid for him to stay there and went back to check on him showed more god in him than the clergy man walking by. It's good to know the tradition's and keep them but without treating people right I don't think it means a hill of bean's. LOVE AND PEACE TO ALL ON THIS SITE.l

Joe and Adam,
I agree with you both.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yeah it’s called sin. Just because there is unpleasant gritty sand on the beach doesn’t mean you deny the existence of a place where the land meets the ocean.

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I did not say that tradition is out of the question. All I said is that tradition that is not in agreement with the Word should not be taken as God's will! Jesus said that he who is not against us is with us.
It takes two witnesses to testify the word so that the word becomes certain. Tradition should be backed up somehow by the Word, I think it is clear that every word that is against the Word somehow, is not God's!
Again I am not saying that we should forget everything else and just focus and study the Bible, but I am saying examine every word, every tradition if it is God's or not!

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Adam:

You’ve brought forward some good points.

The ‘Word’, Holy Scripture, has a special relation with Tradition. Scripture and Tradition are bound together forming a synergistic accord of one fountainhead of Divine Truth. A truth that rejoices in God’s grace and teaches the heart wisdom (Cf. Matt 28:20 & cf. Col 3:16). Sacred Scripture is God’s revelation to man inspired through the lives of the authors. Tradition authoritatively telegraphs the good news with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, preserving, expounding and teaching. They cannot be separated. Scripture without Tradition is merely another book whose author is but another human with a human’s propensity for failure. Tradition without Scripture is Truth without discipline, a subjective truth, an ever changing truth relative to the perspective of the listener; an oxymoron considering truth is immutable. To focus only on scripture is to ignore life, to focus on the love for other is blessed, but to LIVE God’s truth as taught by the Magisterium of the Church is holy, becoming an adopted son of God.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Adam:

You’ve brought forward some good points.

The ‘Word’, Holy Scripture, has a special relation with Tradition. Scripture and Tradition are bound together forming a synergistic accord of one fountainhead of Divine Truth. A truth that rejoices in God’s grace and teaches the heart wisdom (Cf. Matt 28:20 & cf. Col 3:16). Sacred Scripture is God’s revelation to man inspired through the lives of the authors.

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All God inspired tradition has been written down.

Tj3,
Yes you are right it has been written down in several different places.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

All God inspired tradition has been written down.

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There are things that God showed me, even told me and many of those things I have written down.What I wrote is not Scripture but me passing these things to others ,that would make those things a tradition!
I am sure that this is the kind of tradition that is mentioned in Scripture to keep and follow along with Scripture!

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

There are things that God showed me, even told me and many of those things I have written down.What I wrote is not Scripture but me passing these things to others ,that would make those things a tradition!
I am sure that this is the kind of tradition that is mentioned in Scripture to keep and follow along with Scripture!

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As it was with Paul and the Bereans, any revelations are to be tested by seeing if they are in concert with scripture - scripture is the standard.

What you write down is not scripture, and anything that you do not write down is not equal to or an addition to scripture either.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Christ didn't make subdivisions (denominations) of His Church.
JoeT

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We have to recognize that Christ warned us of doctrine of man.. I think you will agree.

And also we have to recognize the power of God that sustains us.. I think you will agree.

Both are present.. and exist.. Agree?

Christ the Lord said.. Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth and what will I, if it be already kindled?

The Holy Spirit warms a believers heart and Truth is a consuming fire. (Hebrew 12:29 - Deu 4:24 - Deu 9:3 - John 15:26)

Luke 12:51-52 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. KJV

Those of satan are not HIS, and not all know the truth.

Some are fools and slow to understand that Christ suffered all to HIS glory. (Luke 24:25-26) All that the prophets spoke, tells us what we too will suffer, and how Christ suffered to baptism as it was the first to be accomplished. (Act 3:18)

Why? Because it is written in Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

How are we to unity with the Father, with the Word, and with the Holy Spirit? In Baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.. )Matthew 3:11-Luke 3:16)

How are be unitied and not divided... One LORD One FAITH One BAPTISM; One GOD and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is only unity in following Christ, who is the vine. (John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise


Who accomplished baptism to be suffered? CHRIST

Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?

1 JOHN 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6-7-8 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

~follow the begotten Son of God

adam7gur,
God did not stop inspiring people after holy scripture was written.
And many have written what which was passed down to them from the apostles and from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred
I aggree!

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Originally Posted by arcura

adam7gur,
God did not stop inspiring people after holy scripture was written.
And many have written what which was passed down to them from the apostles and from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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True and we agree, God provided revelation to some people as guidance for their lives, or perhaps even for their church, but nothing to add to general revelation equal to scripture.

Tj3,
Thanks for your opinion on that.
I disagree to a limited extent.
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

True and we agree, God provided revelation to some people as guidance for their lives, or perhaps even for their church, but nothing to add to general revelation equal to scripture.

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Still I believe that everything that comes out of God's mouth is Scripture in a way 'cause I cannot say that this word of God is special and the other one is not so special.
Everything God says is special, either it is written down or it is sound tradition!

Jesus always rallyed against oral tradition.
"You have heard it said, but I say... "
Is said many times and written as scripture. Should we take the oral tradition over what Jesus says?
Many times Jesus gave a definite answer saying, "It is written..." always quoting from the Old testament(the only scripture or Bible they had at the time.
I believe in a God that if He wants something to be taken as scripture(his own Word) that he is capable and able to do so and has done this.
Anyone can learn all they need to know from the Bible. Once they are born again, the spirit speaks to them as they read scripture and pray to guide them.
Ask yourself, If I were alone on a desert Island and a Bible came floating in on a raft and this was my only experience with religion or God, would my beliefs be different than they are now? If the answer is Yes, take the Bereans attitude and check absolutely everything against what scripture says. See if some pharisaical character has added a burden to you that is not necessary for a loving relationship with our Lord and saviour.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

We have to recognize that Christ warned us of doctrine of man.. I think you will agree.

And also we have to recognize the power of God that sustains us.. I think you will agree.

Both are present.. and exist.. Agree?

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No, not in the context presented here, I don’t agree. First Christ doesn’t warn us against ‘doctrine’ He warns us against traditions of men. The Church's doctrine are not the traditions of men, rather the Tradition of Christ.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Christ the Lord said.. Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth and what will I, if it be already kindled?
The Holy Spirit warms a believers heart and Truth is a consuming fire. (Hebrew 12:29 - Deu 4:24 - Deu 9:3 - John 15:26)

Luke 12:51-52 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. KJV

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After baptism we baptized stand guard, pray, fast, for ourselves and the souls of the departed. Baptism frees of sin, both actual and original and as such we are like the afflicted in want penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the Holy Church (Cf. Luke 12:50). If the after death we aren’t risen, then why bother. (Cf. St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy, Church Doctrines, chapter 5) But, Christ wanted speaks passionately to motivate with a burning desire to enter the Kingdom of God through baptism; “I am come to cast fire on the earth.” (Luke 12”49). Figurative speech similar to Sirach 48:1, “Then the prophet Elijah arose like a fire, and his word burned like a torch.”

St. Augustine held that our faith is immature, as a child is immature, and that child matures while in the presence of adults, as a child like faith matures in the presence of men with a mature holiness. (Cf. St. Augustine: Doctrine, 4046) Even among family we have varying maturity of faith which causes conflict; especially with those with infinitely small faith. “The Baptism of Jesus is on his part acceptance and inauguration of his mission as God's suffering Servant. He allows himself to be numbered among sinners; he is already "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (CCC 538). Those members of the body of Christ are numbered among those belonging to Satan, those who “are not HIS, and not all know the truth.” Figuratively, we should be like the sacrifice consumed by the passion for the graces granted in baptism; “Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God." (1Kings 18:38-39)

The Catechism teaches that as water signifies birth and the gifts of the Holy Spirit so too does fire symbolizes the effect on the soul of the transforming graces. “The prayer of the prophet Elijah, who "arose like fire" and whose "word burned like a torch," brought down fire from heaven on the sacrifice on Mount Carmel. This event was a "figure" of the fire of the Holy Spirit, who transforms what he touches. John the Baptist, who goes "before (the Lord) in the spirit and power of Elijah," proclaims Christ as the one who "will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." Jesus will say of the Spirit: "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!" In the form of tongues "as of fire," the Holy Spirit rests on the disciples on the morning of Pentecost and fills them with himself The spiritual tradition has retained this symbolism of fire as one of the most expressive images of the Holy Spirit's actions. "Do not quench the Spirit."(CCC 696)

This theme is express in most all of St. Augustine’s writings, the following is an example:

“Now John, amongst the other things which he spake to those who came to be baptized by him, said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” The Lord also said, “Jn truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,” even at Pentecost. Now as to John’s expression, “with fire,” though tribulation also might be understood, which believers were to suffer for the name of Christ; yet may we reasonably think that the same Holy Spirit is signified also under the name of “fire.” Wherefore when He came it is said, “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” Hence also the Lord Himself said, “I am come to send fire on the earth.” Hence also the Apostle saith, “Fervent in the spirit;” for from Him comes the fervour of love. “For it is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.” And the contrary to this fervour is what the Lord said, “The love of many shall wax cold.” Now perfect love is the perfect gift of the Holy Spirit. But the first “gift” is that which is concerned with the remission of sins; by which blessing “we are delivered from the power of darkness;” St. Augustine on NT Sermon XX. [LXX. Ben.]

So, you see, we should pray for those consuming fires. You weren’t suggesting otherwise, were you?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Some are fools and slow to understand that Christ suffered all to HIS glory. (Luke 24:25-26) All that the prophets spoke, tells us what we too will suffer, and how Christ suffered to baptism as it was the first to be accomplished. (Act 3:18)

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Some are even more foolish when shown the mystery of the Kingdom of God and yet “seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand… (Mark 4:12). A bigger fool will see the plain truth and not recognize it.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?

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Just for clarity; if you define the Word as the ‘Holy Scripture’, then the above statement would make you in unity with a book. The incarnation, incarnatio (in: caro, flesh), conforming to the John’s descriptuion of Christ’s conception. John (1:14), (kai ho Logos sarx egeneto), "And the Word was made flesh". Incarnation is the act of a God residing in a human. The ‘word’ of God refers to God’s will and all creation is the product of God’s will. Thus, the incarnate word is the residing of the will of God in a human, i.e. Christ, both God and man, one Divine Person with two natures.

JoeT

Church doctrine and traditions of man are not necessarily two separate issues.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

No, not in the context presented here, I don't agree. First Christ doesn't warn us against 'doctrine' He warns us against traditions of men. The Church's doctrine are not the traditions of men, rather the Tradition of Christ.

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I would discern this as untrue because I see many churches that have changed what Christ suffered to accomplish.

Lists of changes can be shown such as baptizing innocent new born babies at birth, baptism without full coverage in of water,( a paganism feast) rather then passover feast where the lamb of Christ our passover, and a huge doubt taught to say we are still with sin, and not knowing we were set free from sin by the blood of Christ.

Christ brought division between those that do not believe in HIS WORD, and those who do have faith in Christ.

Those that overcome are connected in unity with the Fire of Spiritual Truth in our Father, and the Holy Spirit when baptized. And have been set free from the curse of sin, having no more sin by the blood of Christ.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will


Eph 14:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

I ask you, who teaches that we can be without sin, and unto a fullness of Christ /perfect man?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

After baptism we baptized stand guard, pray, fast, for ourselves and the souls of the departed. Baptism frees of sin, both actual and original and as such we are like the afflicted in want penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the Holy Church .

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Baptism is not to be in reference in putting away filth of flesh! But it is the answer to good conscience toward God. (FAITH)
refer:[B]1 Peter 3:21[/B] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

And to say baptism afflicted in want for penitential discipline imposed by the authority of the church ... I discern the authority to be aid in God's hand of power and glory, and our Father in Heaven as the Fire. We can not glory in man, but give all glory to the Father.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

If the after death we aren't risen, then why bother. (Cf. St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy, Church Doctrines, chapter 5) But, Christ wanted speaks passionately to motivate with a burning desire to enter the Kingdom of God through baptism; “I am come to cast fire on the earth.” (Luke 12”49). Figurative speech similar to Sirach 48:1, “Then the prophet Elijah arose like a fire, and his word burned like a torch.”

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(Luke 12:49) as you have reference is that our Father has kindled HIS FIRE. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. His Fire goes before us and destroys evil to protect, and so we will serve HIM in godly fear. Even so we have Baptism as verse 12:50 will go on to say... refer:Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

What you offer as teaching on the after death would better be discerned by what means death and buried in Christ through baptism, able to raise with Christ and in Christ. OR why bother? It has nothing to do with the after death of the flesh departed by the spirit, and returning to the Father that sent it.
BUT it does means death of this world which is sin, and buried in following Christ without sin, able to raise as Christ prayed to the Father, so we are not of this world but one with Him.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cr 2:5)

John 17:15-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

“Now John, amongst the other things which he spake to those who came to be baptized by him, said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” The Lord also said, “Jn truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence,” even at Pentecost. Now as to John's expression, “with fire,” though tribulation also might be understood, which believers were to suffer for the name of Christ; yet may we reasonably think that the same Holy Spirit is signified also under the name of “fire.”

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Joe, I discern difference in the thinking that the Holy Spirit might be the same name of Fire.. the sufficiency in understand that our Father is the consuming FIRE. We do not separate or divide Father, Son and Holy Spirit.. Knowing each are sufficient, and agree as "ONE" with the Father.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

So, you see, we should pray for those consuming fires. You weren't suggesting otherwise, were you?

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I pray in the spirit of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, that the Father will reveal to you what is HIS will in wisdom for you. I trust that in baptism by confessed faith in the begotten Son of God, we are gifted according to the measure, and will of God. If we follow Christ, and deny ourselves in our own pride, we can be blessed in doing the will of God with HIS hand of strength to guide us and protect us that being by HIS FIRE.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Some are even more foolish when shown the mystery of the Kingdom of God and yet “seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand… (Mark 4:12). A bigger fool will see the plain truth and not recognize it.

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NOTED:
The sower soweth the word.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

RECOGNIZE that we must hold stedfast in ONE LORD... ONE FAITH... ONE BAPTISM
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, so that we have all that we has been given to overcome satan.

As Peter stands unyielding as a rock in his LOVE for Christ, we too must pray in the spirit of truth that is our Faith in Christ, that our Father will grant us the blessing to be all HE created us to be. And that we bow to HIS hand of strength that can destroy evil before us. Asking in the Name of Christ...

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Who has unity in baptism with the WORD, the Father of TRUTH, and the SPIRIT?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Just for clarity; if you define the Word as the 'Holy Scripture', then the above statement would make you in unity with a book. The incarnation, incarnatio (in: caro, flesh), conforming to the John's descriptuion of of Christ's conception. John (1:14), (kai ho Logos sarx egeneto), "And the Word was made flesh". Incarnation is the act of a God residing in a human. The 'word' of God refers to God's will and all creation is the product of God's will. Thus, the incarnate word is the residing of the will of God in a human, i.e., Christ, both God and man, one Divine Person with two natures.

JoeT

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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Father + Son + Holy Spirit undivided=unity


To the praise of HIS glory.. (Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of HIS glory, who first trusted in Christ. )


~child of God in Chirst

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Church doctrine and traditions of man are not necessarily two separate issues.

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How do you say that?

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

Still I believe that everything that comes out of God's mouth is Scripture in a way 'cause I cannot say that this word of God is special and the other one is not so special.
Everything God says is special, either it is written down or it is sound tradition!

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The problem is that when people say that they heard from God, and hold to that view, they are saying that you must accept what they have said in addition to scripture, in that case, even if it adds to a doctrine or contradicts it, which is something that scripture explicitly condemns.

The way that we determine if something is of God is to follow what scripture says, for example, the Bereans tested the words of Paul (inspired by God) by going to scripture. When Jesus validated doctrine, He went to scripture. Why would men today be exempt from following in the paths of Jesus and Paul?

People indeed do hear from God topday, but whatever God says will always align with His written word.